Dingus

I agree with you Pete , that this is a masterful piece of work by Chuck Rainey , and I salute the fact that you are able to tackle it at all! I cannot think of a better example of a bassline that sounds reasonably straightforward on first hearing, but when you sit down to try and have a go at it yourself turns out to be a much more daunting prospect. What a player and what a performance. I think both approaches you outline are perfectly o.k - who's to say that Chuck wouldn't throw in the odd change or ad lib if he was playing the song again now- but I suppose the more you know of the original version, the more you could work it in to your own rendition. It sounds like you are only talking about the finer points of the line anyway. I've seen video of Nearly Dan on this site and always been full of admiration for the playing of all the musicians. The thought has crossed my mind on who the target audience would be for a Steely Dan tribute band would be. I have been loving the Dan for nearly the last thirty years since a guitarist friend really got me into them, but I know some people find their music a bit esoteric . To people used to listening to more mainstream pop music the more sophisticated approach of Becker and Fagen can be hard to enjoy, in my experience. I would be genuinely interested to know what kind of venues/ functions are booking your band.; whoever it is it must be someone who has good taste. Obviously they are, because the band have been working for 15 years,

With any bass you try in any shop, a lot can have happened to it in between leaving the factory and you picking it up to play it in the showroom.

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1345071987' post='1773352'] meh, squier can get it right a lot of the time on a budget instrument. It is as you say a question of time spent in the factory. And partly I guess how much Lakland pays Cort to spend time on their basses, factored in with the "value added" of the Lakland brand and the amount of profit lakland want to make on each bass. Basses are funny things, you get to a point where a lot of the far eastern made basses are made by the same couple of manufacturers and badged with whatever- one comes out with one logo on it and is £1000, a similar, cheaper hardware for £300- or just different priorities. Like blindfold test a Skyline Lakland, or Tanglewood Overwater, or A Cort GB, or even the Cort Sandberg line series.... is there as much difference essentially as the recommended retail price would suggest? [/quote] Well here you have got a very good point. I can't compare the models/ brands you mention because of all the ones you mention I only have experience of the Lakland Skyline , but what I do know is that , generally speaking, inexpensive basses are getting better and better in terms of both sound and playability, and are getting closer to the performance you would get from professional -level instruments 20 or 30 years ago. Would a Skyline justify its higher price compared to the others ( I am assuming they are cheaper)? I think the fundamental difference might be that the hardware on the Lakland is essentially the same as on the USA models, and (if you get a good example ), the Plekked fretjob and overall playability make it play and sound very close to it's USA counterparts. So then you are getting something that is comparable to a high-end bass for around £1000 , depending on which model, ect . Whether it gets close enough is something for the individual to decide. I suppose most people have never tried a USA Lakland to compare it to, but they can at least evaluate the bass in their hands . Musicman 20 made the point earlier that the Skyines aren't a budget brand because the cost a grand, but I would maintain that they are budget basses because they are essentially a more affordable version of a more expensive bass . An American Standard Fender is the definitive version of itself, by comparison. It is not a cheaper version of anything. £1000 is a lot of money, but that's not the same thing. You are quite right; basses are funny things. , and that is true at every price point , right up to high -end handmade instruments. When you strip away the artifice, you can be left wondering what you have paid for when you look at the reality of what you have actually ended up with . At least with less expensive instruments they are more freely available in shops and so you can probably try them out and make your mind up based on that , just like Musicman 20 has done in this case . The further up the scale you go, the more likelihood there is you are taking a leap of faith in some way or another.

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1345068662' post='1773284'] Thats nice Mr Dingus. But if I were looking to spend £1000 on a bass and had the choice between one where it didn't line up correctly and hadn't been painted correctly and one that had.... I would go for the squier! When a £300 chinese bass can do it... a budget range at 3 times the price should be able to do it too don't you think? Also pickups not lining up perfectly...I think when on a fender style pickup you have a object running between two magnets and inducing a current thats then amplified... then where over the magnets the object runs is kinda important. If you had a big delano style single pole piece less so... but standard jazz or P pickups.... again squier manage it. [/quote] The pickups magnetic field spreads in an arc and is not so specific as to be effected by a few millimeters difference. The misalignment on Laklands usually involves the string being towards the pole piece above its centre position , still well within its magnetic field. The point is that if they spent more time on such things as the pickup alignment at the factory maybe they would have to charge even more.. At some stage it seems they have made a decision at some level ,for better or for worse, on what their priorities will be. All companies get feedback from dealers and consumers on what the issues with their products are, and then decide how to respond, if at all.

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1345068632' post='1773283'] I know where you are coming from, but they aren't a budget bass. They are the same price as a Fender American Standard, but you don't get any type of hardcase, or any case at all! Sorry. but the pickup alignment/paintwork/bridge alignment really does bug me when a £300 Squier CV is almost perfect. [/quote] I take your point entirely and I certainly don't mean to sound like I am having a go at you. by any means. Just like you , if I am looking at a bass with a veiw to buying it I am very particular: we each have our own priorities as to what's important , and you are' of course' fully entitled to pay your money and take your choice ( or not not pay your money and not take your choice in this case for you , if you know what I mean.) I suppose anyone making a choice would have to consider if the features and extras with the Fender appealed to them more than Lakland Skyline for the money. The Fender is good value in my opinion, and the recent American Standards are great basses regardless, of cost. . Everything you could want from a Fender. The point I really wanted to make is that those Hansons are really good -sounding pickups by any standards, and if you were to discount them out of hand you might be missing out on their better qualities.

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1345062340' post='1773141'] Agreed, the old ones (eg before Hanson took over and when they used boutique pups) were definitely a step above a USA Fender, but now, definitely not. [/quote] [quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1345062364' post='1773144'] Yep...its a much 'bigger' company now. [/quote] I am very interested in these two assertions. In my estimation the Hanson pickups that come as standard on Lakland basses nowadays are equal to and in some cases better than any of the so-called boutique pickups that they used to fit. Hanson Pickups are boutique pickups. Looking at each case on it's respective merits, the LH3 pickup system that replaced the Bartolinis is clearly better than it's predecessor. When I first heard Lakland were making the change I perhaps shared some of your schepticism to some extent, but within 5 minutes of trying the new pickups I was utterly converted . The LH3 sounds as good as any other h-ifi, hi-tech pickup and preamp package on the market. As for the Jazz Bass and Precision style pickups, , I am a huge fan of the Aero pickups that used to come on the D.J, but the Hansons sound very close indeed to them . The Hanson Jazz pickups were voice to be somewhere between the vintage warmth of the Fralins and the slightly more agressive Aero sound, and to my ears they did a great job. The Neopunch Precision -style pickup is a similaly fantastic piece of work ; it sounds huge and is very responsive with an agressive growl that is extremely appealing . Also, in terms of the build quality i.e how well they are potted , shielded, lack of microphony ect. the Hansons are top -notch. I would be very keen to know if you have actually tried and compared basses with all these pickups , or whether you are going purely on brand-name reputation. As for Lakland being a big company since Dan sold his interest, I can tell you for a fact that the only real change is that they have moved to a new and much-improved factory in Chicago that will help them turn out even better basses.,. They are still a relatively small concern doing things pretty much as they always did. Current C.E.O John Pirriccello was with Dan from the beginning, and cares passionately about the good name and reputation of the company and it's products just like Dan did( and still does.) That said, if you don't like Laklands, you don't like Laklands. I suppose that ,just like Fender, if you really want one you have to find a good one . As for the percieved quality control issues, I certainly wouldn't get too hung up on the whole pickup alignment thing. Within most parameters it won't make any percievable difference to the sound or output of the pickup. Lakland are quite aware that the pickups don't always line up perfectly -there can be various reasons for this- and it just isn't very important. The finishing on the neck join is often a trouble spot for guitars for some reason, and the paint is prone to burn - through o n the heel block. I have seen this on expensive boutique basses as well as relatively inexpensive ones . Why this is I don't know but it wouldn't particulaly bother me. A tight neck pocket is however essential on any bass with a bolt-on neck , in my book. Particulaly when talking about the Skyline series, it's important to remember you are talking about a (very good ) budget range. made in the far -East . If you want the kind of quality you seem to crave then I would suggest looking at the U.S.A- made basses. To my ears at least , the Skylines sound about as good,, but the U.S.A basses feel better, if that makes sense.

Reading your o.p , I honestly don't think swapping out your existing Jazz pickups for another brand /model would ever provide the kind of changes in tone you are looking for. That thinner, strident , more wiry sound from a rear Jazz pickup is very much the nature of the beast; It's what makes it sound like a jazz bass! Chopping and changing the pickups will almost certainly be a waste of money and effort and lead to dissapointment . Both the stock pickups in your 2010 American Standard and the Seymour Duncan in your Hotrod are very good sounding pickups; if they dont please you then the chances are fairly remote that any other brand or model will make such a huge difference that you will be glad you made the change. In my experience changing pickups can be worthwhile if you have got a substandard pickup to begin with, but the diffences between one high quality pickup and another top-grade replacement can more often than not be a sideways move at best. Have you tried experimenting with what is commonly referred to as the inbetween-tones on your basses ? Try turning both pickups on full and then turn down either the neck pickup or the bridge pickup a fraction until you hear the tone change slightly and you will find a sweet spot in the sound where the pickup that is on full is supported by the pickup turned down slightly . This can be a very useful and musically enjoyable sound, and has more cut than both pickups on full together as it avoids the mid-scoop you get with that setting because phase cancellation between the two pickups. Experiment with it and see what you think. And it's free.

[quote name='wombatboter' timestamp='1344960553' post='1771666'] Then I was mistaken for a long time.. Surprises me still since the tone and the phrasing seem so "vintage" Pino (especially the fills in the muted guitar section are very Pino-like) but I don't claim to be right so... Bit disillusioned still... :-) [/quote] It's an easy mistake to make and I can certainly see what you mean about their similarities of style ; I probably assumed it was Pino until I read a magazine article where Larry talked about playing that part for Don Henley. Maybe they sound similar in their style of playing fretless in so much as they both wanted to find a voice on that instrument that avoided the direct influence of Jaco.

[quote name='Chris2112' timestamp='1344625393' post='1767384'] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLYfokL-cL0[/media] My favourite track with Larry playing on it. Great feel, great tone and presence in the mix. He just seems to move around so intelligently on this one, and adds that 'drive' into the tune. [/quote] Thanks for the heads-up on this track- I'm not very well versed in Joni's music in the era after Dog Eat Dog . I see what you mean about driving the song along . I particulaly like the figure he plays starting at 4:07 in the outro. This is going to be tonights play- along track . He's such a crafty and intelligent player who's got a great nack for being busy but still making space ( if that makes sense!) With the qualities he has as a bass player, it doesn't surprise me that he has become a top producer.

That is one fabulous sounding bass. I have always loved the sound of Warwick Thumb Basses : for my money they are one of the best sounding ( and looking) basses ever. They have got such a rich and focused tone that will cut through in any situation and a beautifully crisp attack to the notes that seem to pop out from your fingers as you play. It's just a shame that , for me at least, the ergonomics of this model are a bit of an aquired taste ; I personally find the Streamer body shape far more comfortable . What this video demonstrates to me is that , unlike a lot of exotic wood basses , Warwicks have got enough grit and guts in their sound to make themselves heard in a loud band situation, and that is one of their great strenghths in my opinion. I suppose the fact that so many big - name players in the hard/ alternative rock genre are gravitating towards Wawicks nowadays is testament to this.

Just to echo what others have said really ; the Star Bass and the Alembic sound a different class to me. That Jazz Bass has got the 70s pickup spacing and heavily laquered maple board- sound in spades , by the way. Very tidy playing by the guy too. Seeing as people have been enjoying this, I thought I would throw this into the equation :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rP1SsNIymyQ A selection of basses with flats, this time but some great tones and some excellent playing by this chap as well.

I am hopelessly biased of course, because when I was a kid a Wal was the bass I aspired to more than any other, but I still think that Wal basses are truly special sounding instruments . I can distinctly remember the first time I played one at the Bass Centre at Wapping and being blown away by the tone , even compared to the other high-end basses I tried that day. The only thing in the shop that could compete was an Alembic. I ended up buying three Wals, and they were all brilliant basses each with distinct characters of their own but all with that unmistakable midrange prescence that is , in my experience, unique to these basses. They are however, idiosyncratic instruments and won't be to everybodys taste ( I suppose you could say that about any /every bass though) , but the overall superb quality of build and sound will always win over the majority of people who try them. Some people comment on the high prices they go for nowadays , and what Chris2112 says is perfectly correct in my recollection ; you could get them for silly money back in the mid to late nineties and I mean £600-700, but full retail for a new Wal nowadays is actually still pretty good value for money . I would baulk at the prospect of paying £2500 for a vintage one when Paul could make me a new one for a little over three and a half grand. I know that's a lot of a money on the face of it, but I would compare one of these basses to an Alembic Series One or even Series Two in terms of sound quality ( before anyone gets excited , I mean in their own way- i know they sound nothing like an Alembic), and are easily as good as a something like a fully -optioned Fodera. If you look at what those basses will cost you, especially in the U.K, then the Wal looks a pretty sensible price . It's a handmade instrument that will last you a lifetime and could save you a lot of money in the long term. It's also worth mentioning that , regarding any debate over the preamp ( which to my sensibilities is easy to use and sounds both unique and fantastically good), the Wal can be used in passive mode and it sounds just as good as active. And the passive tone controls work really well too. I don't play Wal basses any more for various reasons, but they will always have a special place in my heart and under the right circumstances I would jump at the chance getting another.

[quote name='wombatboter' timestamp='1342989642' post='1743600'] I thought that was Pino.... [/quote] Larry Klein played on Boys Of Summer , using his fretless Yamaha BB five string . I have been a big fan of Larrys playing for many years, since I heard his intricate and intelligent bass lines on Wild Things Run Fast, and recently came across his fantastic work on Freddie Hubbards Live At The North Sea Jazz Festival 1980 album . I think Larry is playing a straight ahead Fender Precision bass through an SVT and he gets one of the best bass sounds I have ever heard on a record : http://www.youtube.com/results?hl=en&safe=off&q=freddie+hubbard+live+at+the+north+sea+jazz+festival&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&biw=1920&bih=957&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=w1&gl=GB

I came across this whilst browsing Youtube this afternoon and thought some of you folks might find it as tantalising as I do. This looks to be the find of a lifetime, especially if he got it for a decent price . [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8Iu9TM8DfY[/media] To me that looks to be a fabulous example of a truly classic bass with one of the nicest sunbursts I have ever seen. Whiile I'm at it I might as well throw in this one that I came across a while ago for good measure: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVdunW7FBQ4&list=UUFzdwJs_ajtDeimeH6d3e_w&index=10&feature=plcp Also stunning.

All I can think of is that it was considered too contemporary and too hip for Johnny Mathis's usual audience. You would think however, that before the record company had sanctioned and paid for the recording they would have had a fairly good idea what they were going to get. I have done a bit of research on Google and apparently both Chic and Johnny Mathis were delighted with the results, but the label said no go . It must have been a pretty costly affair for someone - Nile Rodgers and Bernard Edwards were the hottest producers around at this time and won't have come cheap. And then there's the recording costs. I personally think people would have bought it in droves, but maybe I'm a bit biased because I'm such a fan of just about anything the Chic Corporation got involved with , and also maybe nowadays we take it for granted that audiences are more accepting of inter-generational music. In recent years artists such as Neil Diamond , Johnny Cash and Tony Bennett et al. have all made crossover albums that appealed to their existing fans as well as a new younger audiences . Thirty years ago it was probably a lot harder to envisage this kind of thing happening .

Fixed. Thanks for the help Garry.

Thanks for the help , I'll try and get it sorted out now.

Yes , that's one of the tracks. My embedding from Youtube hasn't worked how I expected it to. Back to the drawing board!

Why had I never heard anything about this before? I came across these tracks completely by accident in Youtube yesterday, and the more I listen to them the more I like them . Apparently Nile Rogers and Bernard Edwards were brought in during 1981 to work the same kind of magic they had the year before for Diana Ross, but the record company didn't like the results and so the album was never released. I find this a bit mystifying , as the results sound great to me . What is on the face of it a slightly unlikely pairing seems to really work ; Mathis highly distinctive voice and singing style is perfectly complimented by the compelling and sophisticated grooves the Nile and Bernard turn out so effortlessly. Interesting to hear Bernard slapping a bit on some tracks as well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PO2xatKx4I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BK8rn76tJTo

[quote name='Raggy' timestamp='1344036636' post='1759146'] If you're getting a custom made bass, isnt the idea to get something built that will be what you want [/quote] If only getting a custom made bass was that straightforward! O.K, you are quite right -of course you should order something you are sure you will like- but in reality though a lot of the time you can never be really sure what the final result will be. No matter how specific you are in outlining your requirements, there is always the possibility that there will be some problem or niggling design flaw that you haven't thought of or experienced before , or that what you end up with just doesn't please you in the way you thought it would. It's a gamble , to one degree or another. The best scenario is if you have tried a custom -made production model , such as say a Sadowsky or Wal , and then can specify any special customisation requirements (if any) to the bulider when you order. At least you have a fairly concrete idea of what you will end up with.

It means it will have a Jazz Bass - profile neck.

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1344009290' post='1758701'] I could understand £100 price rise....but £300-400?! Seriously?! The Metro's are overpriced IMO. £2000 for a pretty standard 5 string Jazz?! [/quote] I totally agree with you, but the strenghth /advantage Musicman have in the marketplace over boutique/ custom bass builders is that they have an extensive dealer network that puts their basses quite literally within reach of the general buying public -I expect in most major cities in the U.K you can find a shop that has a Musicman bass in stock- and they are able manufacture sufficient numbers of instruments to supply those dealers with stock in reasonable quantity and time. A lot of people , particulaly more" casual" enthusiasts lets say,would not contemplate waiting six months to a year or more for a custom build , know how to locate a UK distributor for overseas goods or indeed organise buying direct from abroad . For what it's worth , I think a great many higher priced supposedly high-end instruments are over-priced in so much as in the final analysis they do not sound or play better than basses half the price. Strip away the hype and you are left wondering what you actually paid for. I have bought basses in the Fender American Standard -Musicman ( pre-increase) price range that were just as satisfying instruments in every way as anything more expensive or exotic I have had. I am speaking generally and only in my own opinion/ experience of course; there are some very notable exceptions where expensive basses are worth every penny ,and what those exceptions are will vary from player to player depending on what they like and dislike, but price is certainly no guarantee of value or quality . The law of diminishing returns begins to apply. Until now I would have said Musicman basses represented excellent quality and value at a fair price considering their superb build quality , playability and sound -I can't think of a better made factory production guitar- but at these new prices I would have to seriously reconsider.