Dingus

[quote name='Spoombung' timestamp='1348428552' post='1813548'] Here's my band, Prescott:media]http://youtu.be/1EY3GZdRtbY[/media] [/quote] Sounds like the sountrack to a nervous breakdown . I like it.

I was wondering just the other day what a tenth anniversary Bongo might encompass. Maybe a mahogany body and Reflex electronics ? Imagine a series / parralel -switchable Bongo, with the option of active/passive. Regarding the subject of the o.p and this ltd. edition Bongo, I expect they sound amazing, but the Bongo pickups and preamp would probably sound good if the body was made out of balsa wood, never mind mahogany. I've just been looking at these and I must say that the finish looks a lot better in the flesh than I initially thought, although to me it looks better on the Sterlings than the Stingray, but I couldn't give you a rational reason why. that would be : http://www.theperfectbass.com/explore.cfm?STORE=Y&N=122&SN=464&CT=101&PG=101&W=STORE&P=N&S=1001081&U=1&SS=1&CR=Y&modify=0 It's also interesting that the respective weights of these basses is about the same as if they were made out of ash, albeit that they are still a bit too heavy for me.

Regarding the collectability and value of Alembics versus Fenders, I think the most significant difference is that the older Fenders are widely regarded to be better than the new ones , in the common public perception at least , and are in limited supply as only a finite number remain in existance . Alembic however , are still going strong as a company and are made better than ever , and although vintage Alembics are relatively uncommon, these basses are not in limited supply in so much as new Alembics are even better than the old ones, and if you hanker for an old spec. one , Alembic can make you one to vintage spec, no problem.

That really is a big price hike. Look forward to getting your Bongo ; in my opinion they are the real star of the EBMM range of basses. They really do sound unique. Plenty of other basses on the market can sound like a Stingray , but nothing sounds like a Bongo. The way the sound sits in the mix is just perfect.

Do you know when the prices are going up? I thought they had gone up already? I still don't really know by how much either.

It would be a very interesting experiment to record a new American Standard Fender bass and compare it to a comparable vintage pre- CBS counterpart recorded under the exact same conditions and let people make up their minds. Maybe, considering the controversy this topic has generated, we could organise that. I have played both extensively, and the American Standards sounded very comparable to the vintage examples to me. This judgement isn't coloured by lack of means either ; I could ( and do) play any bass that I want, and I think the current American Standards are just fine. They sound like a Fender should , play well and have a refreshing abscence of dead spots, probably due in most part to the graphite reinforcement in the neck . Yes some vintage ones sound a bit different- quite often it is because the pickups are knackered and need rewinding, or binning and replacing due to the ravages of time- but whether they are better is a matter for conjecture. I have loved a few of the vintage Fenders that I have been lucky enough to play, but they were all ones that already belonged to someone who would never consider parting with them . A great many of the ones I have been offered by vintage guitar dealers have been a dissapointment, and maybe that is no coincidence. They made good and bad ones back then , too, and people want to hold on to the good ones, quite understandably so. The original JV Series Squiers are an interesting case in point, and a is model I know well because I bought one when they came out. It was my first really good bass, and is very close to my heart, but they were never worthy of the kind of kudos they enjoy nowadays. They were ( and still are ) very nice relatively inexpensive Japanese guitars, but nothing more than that . If they have a nostalgia and rarity value to them nowadays then good luck to them and those that own them , but they command a price grotesquely in excess of their worth as a tool for making music with. I had the Jazz Bass that I bought new for about two hundred quid and the Precision that I got secondhand for thirty quid ( yes, thirty quid). Nice basses, but nowhere near as good as a 2012 American Standard.

[quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1348407960' post='1813211'] I think you look good with a strap on [/quote] I've been waiting three pages for this remark . There's always one, isn't there...

[quote name='Johnnysonic' timestamp='1348394358' post='1812984'] Sorry, but this is absolute nonsense. Do not confuse quality with 'crafstmanship'. Fender were absolutely about producing high quality instruments - Leo wanted to produce guitars for the very top of the market and was determined that jazz players, the most elite, would play his instruments. That they didn't had more to do with the look of, say the Jazzmaster, than its sound or quality. Leo may have designed his guitars to be put together on a production line by semie-skilled labour, but they wer of the highest quality, designed for leading professionals. True they declined under CBS, and the ones today are poor clones, but you can't blame Leo for thst!! [/quote] Fender basses were the highest quality instruments available in their day, bar none. Until Alembic came along in the late 60s / early seventies ( albeit with a radically different design concept) who could rival Fender basses for sound and playability ? A big part of the genius of Leo Fenders designs was that they were fantastic instruments without the need for the highly skilled and detailed craftmanship needed to produce traditional instruments such as violins or better quality acoustic guitars. I would have to disagree, however, that todays Fenders are neccesarily poor clones. I've played countless pre-CBS Fender basses and whilst some were very good basses ( and very beautiful objects), as a working instrument a well-chosen bass from the current Fender range could easily compete in terms of sound, and will almost certainly be superior in terms of playability and durability. If you want to collect antiques then be my guest, but if you want a bass to play then a new one ( providing you choose the right one ) arguably has more to offer, especially if you look at some of the great work the Fender Custom Shop is doing. I'm not saying this to be provocative or denigrate anybodies vintage collection - I think some of these basses are absolutely exquisite- but the simple fact is that Fender basses are fairly straightforward instruments, when all is said and done.

As I promised yesterday, here are a few of quick snaps of my Reflex: The big problem with trying to photograph this bass is that it's all but impossible to show the beautiful deep gloss finish on the white. This video fom the ubiquitous Keko , who I'm sure you are familiar with from the EBMM forum , gives a much better impression of how this bass really looks and some indication of just how epic it sounds : [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95TNN-CnLOQ[/media] On the subject of the aforementioned Keko, I really think EBMM should give him a free bass for all the publicity and exposure he has given this bass on the internet.

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1348397701' post='1813057'] Mine have always been set so that the lower heel of the bass is at "tackle height". in my single days I gained great kudos from a woman in a pub who wanted to know why I had a hole rubbed in my jeans at the top of my right leg & I said it was from my bass............ so it does happen .............. occasionally............... rarely................ sometimes. [/quote] You should have told them the clue is in the name... Hi , I'm Big Stu , pleased to meet you...

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1348355290' post='1812777'] I'm not saying preCBS fenders are bad quality, just that there wasn't any craftsmanship involved and the whole production process was very pragmatic. If anything their pragmatism probably adds to their appeal. But the point you make about the poor quality of the seventies Fenders causing players to reconsider older instruments is a good one but in hindsight wasn't enough to send prices crazy. [/quote] Point taken. I also don't mean that they are poor quality as such, rather that they were factory production guitars made within the constraints of the technology and manufacturing practises of that era rather than instruments whose craftsmanship reflect their current high price Their value comes from their scarcity rather than their substance. My own experience is that you get some good ones , some bad ones and some downright wrecks. The advent of computer- controlled CNC routing ect. has made mass production guitars more consistant, and things like fretwork are usually to a higher standard in modern times. But pre( and many post ) CBS Fenders have an undeniable charm, that's for sure, but just like a classic car, I'd be reluctant to spend a lot of money on one.. The rise in price of vintage basses was largely fueled by increased demand in the U.S.A , Japan and Europe, be it from a combination nostalgic amatures , serious enthusiasts and working professionals who sought definitive versions of Fenders classic designs in an era before the myriad of boutique alternatives we enjoy today. In the 70s you either had a new Fender or else sought out one we would now call vintage . As supply decreased , the vintage mystique grew and prices rose.

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1348350315' post='1812738'] Custom colours were often sprayed over standard finishes. [url="http://home.provide.net/~cfh/fenderc.html"]http://home.provide....fh/fenderc.html[/url] Herbie Flower's '59 Jazz is a good example of that and he bought it in New York. Fender were NOT about producing high quality. They were about manufacturing to meet a massive demand created by the emergence of rock and roll. Any claims about the genius of Leo or the high standards of quality in old Fenders are questionable in my view. Leo was a very good product designer, not a musician and he designed the instruments with mass production in mind. Part of the reason Fenders are popular is because Fender were able to claim a significantly greater market share than Gibson thanks to that output. On other threads I've mentioned that the whole vintage bass thing was started by nostalgic baby boomers and the flames of interest were fanned into a blazing inferno of hype by retailers and stockbroker/collectors. My old high school art teacher has a '63 strat which he has had since the late 70's when they were still cheap. It's in wine red tint and all original. Can't begin to think what it's worth now. The days of being able to invest in a vintage model of instrument are over I think. The market is much more niche and specialised now. Collectors in 80's instruments are still brand loyal and driven by nostalgia but are looking for the ultimate example of a particular model. For example, the ultimate Alembic, Musicman, Steinberger, Yamaha etc. [/quote] According to old musos who had been " on the scene " back in th early 70s,and people I know in the trade in London who I used to talk to back in the day , the first time old Fenders and Gibsons started to be in demand and sell for more than new models here in the U.K was around 1970. People like Clapton had begun championing the older instruments, and everyone else started to follow suit. The Les Paul had been out of production for a few years anyway, and so you had to get an older model until Gibson twigged their mistake and reissued it. I agree wholeheartedly about questionable quality of many vintage Fenders: I think a lot of their cache comes from the fact that by the mid-70s Fender was by and large producing such poor quality instruments that the older models , however imperfect some may have been , began to be seen as infinitely preferable to the current ones at the time. You are dead right about the days of investing in vintage guitars being pretty much gone ; they were never as good an investment as people seem to think, anyway . I have been buying and selling Fender basses on and off since the mid-1980s and they were never dirt cheap as some people like to think , either in the U.K or especially in the States , where in fact they are even more prized than over here. People don't seem to allow for inflation and other variables. I honestly believe that if you want a bass to play rather than an antique to cherish, you are much are much better of f with a new U.S.A Fender, which are by and large the best they have made in a very long time, maybe ever.

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1348337371' post='1812581'] Lol - well I wouldn't mind a PDN one! Vintage Fender would be a different level of purchase financially and not just yet. I read a fascinating site about custom colour Fender instruments and quite a lot of bona fide instruments appear to have been painted over the top of sunburst (one of the standard colurs) - theory is they were imperfect paint jobs and cheaper and more cost effective to undercoat and top coat over an existing finish than to start with a bare body - plus they get a mark up for the custom colour - canny guys, eh? [/quote] Fender would also get unsold stock in unpopular colours returned from dealers ,and then subsequently resprayed them with more popular finishes that were selling better over the existing colour .

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1348330455' post='1812445'] And what was it (you can whisper in that small font if you want). Another vintage Fender query - this time about 'natural relicing' - now I understand belt buckle rash, dings on the edges and wear points like the arm contour, but why is it I see vintage Fenders for sale which have heavy paintwork damage in fairly inaccessible areas - such as between the bridge and edge of the body - unless an owner has been carelessly changing strings over and over and over again, say on a daily basis, I don't get it - it sort of looks like deliberate damage to me. Any comments from experts on this?? [/quote] The combination of a thin nitro finish and fairly primative paint technology by todays standards - modern Fenders will never wear in the same fashion as their vintage counterparts- mean that once a small wear patch develops on these old basses , it can easily grow as the laquer and paint around it chip off. An important thing to remember about old Fenders is that they were never intended to last for 50 or 60 years. No one thought that far into the future, or contemplated that rock and roll would last that long . There was the assumption of built in obsolescence. Indeed, Leo Fender wanted his instruments to have a bolt-on neck so that when they needed refretting he could just sell another replacement neck ( something Fender did right up to the mid-70s, and another thing to be aware of if weighing up a potential purchse and it's authenticity) . I know that the colours for the custom- order Fender instruments in the Sixties were from the same Dupont Paints catalogue that Ford used for their cars at the that time - candy red, shoreline gold, firemist gold. lake placid blue, ect. As you can probably imagine, spraying basses with a few coats of car paint and then just putting nitrocellulose over them never boded well for the longevity of the finishes on these basses .

Pics on the way, not least of all because I'm thinking about selling it at the moment and may need them for the For Sale section. It's a beautiful bass , but I keep changing my mind about whether I'm keeping it or not. I'll try to take some snaps tonight.

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1348235233' post='1811225'] What an idea - throw a 19 mm spacing neck on it - call it a TB special. I do agree - I would liken it to the same bunch of people relating classic Bruce Forsyth and Jimmy Tarbuck jokes verbatum on the pressing of some subliminal button - boring, very very old hat and quite irritating!! I'd never come across it until I joined bass forums. Dingus, I do like your take on this ancient theme though! [/quote] I've got a white Musicman Reflex bass and that looks like a toilet with the lid down . Great bass, though.

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1348273154' post='1811889'] I think the rule is that the bass should cover the belly-button area. Anything lower or higher is uncool. I know stuff like this because I am a fat bald middle-aged man and fat bald middle-aged men are the arbiters of cool. [/quote] +1 on this, too.

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1348321538' post='1812308'] Kind of,but with slightly more variation depending on the bass. For me it's all about comfort and facility. If it's too low it puts my left wrist at an sharper,more uncomfortable angle and makes it more difficult to play in the higher register. Likewise,if it's too high I have to bend my right wrist at a sharper angle and I find the lower positions to be too much of a reach,which again puts my hand in an uncomfortable position. Keeping it at around sitting position means I have easy access to the entire range of the instrument and a comfortable right hand position. [/quote] +1 on what this man says. For the vast majority of people, wearing the bass at about the same height as it is when you play with it your lap when sitting on a chair will be the most condusive to unhindered technique . Playing the bass is hard enough without making life even harder for yourself by wearing it round your knees. It doesn't even look cool to wear the bass low , it just looks like someone following the same tired old cliche of what is suppopsed to be " rock and roll". If you've got arms like a gorilla or some kind of disability then be my guest, but for anyone with normal physiology it's pure affectation.

Fascinating stuff for the disciples of the Gedmeister! You're right about how Rick-like he gets his P bass to sound, but I have often had the idle thought whilst playing my Precision that the pickup is in the same position' more or less, as the rear pickup on a Rickenbacker, and have myself experimented with trying to get that cutting growl that we all know and love. This is an amazing clip for a number of reasons, not least of all because it shows that they were already superb musicians (and a hard rocking band) by this time . You can see they were something special , even back then. Lets face it, you have to be something special to pull of wearing an outfit like Geddy Lee is wearing in this video clip, even in 1974.

[quote name='far0n' timestamp='1348082799' post='1809119'] One of my favourite bass lines, nice song and it's not often you get a bass solo in the middle of a pop song now is it !! [/quote] That was the 1980s , my friend- pop records with bass guitar parts on them, upfront and unapologetically flash. Nowadays it's getting not that common to find records in the charts with a bass guitar on them at all , never mind a solo!

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1348091316' post='1809318'] The white version didn't last long - very rare and quite sought after. They said they discontinued it because of problems matching the neck and body colours but I have always wondered if the TB banter influenced it. Apparently the Sterling was intended to have single colis but the MM single coil pick up hadn't been perfected by then so appeared on the Bongo first. Back to the mahogony Bongo - someone on the MM forum has received his Bongo 6H so more pics should be available soon. Be interesting to see the headstock treatment on a Bongo. [/quote] I find it hard to imagine that Sterling Ball would have been swayed so easily by a few toilet-taunts, not least of all because the white stingray with a black scratchplate looks much more like a toilet than the white Bongo ever did : I first became aware of the whole Musicman-toilet thing when a female bass player who I met between sets in a bar who had this very colour scheme on her Stingray described it to me as her plastic toilet seat bass, and that must be back in pre-EBMM days . Personally, I think we need to get away from the idea that looking like a toilet or indeed toilets themselves are bad things. Think about how pleased you are to see one when you really need to use one. Where I would have to draw the line is if EBMM were to start offering some kind of roadworn toilet finish with a kind of not -cleaned -in-months relicing effect. That would be a step too far.