ironside1966

Welcome to the wonderful world of mixing. The most common mistakes I find in beginner mixes is engineers trying to get every sound has big and full has possible, they simply boost frequencies that make the instrument sound good. Try to match the same level coming out of the processor to the one going in, That is the only way to accurately judge what is happening. Fletcher-Munsen curves means we hear different frequencies at different volumes, put simply we perceive a louder sound has having more bass and treble . See http://www.surfacedstudio.com/music/louder-is-better-the-fletcher-munson-curves. Also don't over use compression. Try low ratios like 2-1 or below and set the threshold so that everything is compressed or try using higher ratios so that only the loudest parts show gain reduction. Try using High pass filters, keep raising the fitter until you start to hear the sound change then roll back slightly , you can do the same with a High pass filter too.

When a sound engineer says 'Don't worry...it'll be OK when the room fills up.' they mean, if it is still a problem when you are on stage I will sort it but there is little point in doing anything about it now. if this is a constant problem and the sound is fine out front you need to look at solving this yourself. a simple decoupling device like the Gramma might be the answer.

If you want a real drum sound rather than an analogy drums sound you would be better of using something like BFD or Steven Slate SSD 4. http://stevenslatedrums.com

If you look at Punk has just music then you are way off the mark. Punks legacy in more than that. Punk brought music back to the working class person The major bands in the 70s lived lavish and excessive life styles and had nothing in common with the disillusioned youth while the larger than life glam rock stars and bands like Slade, Sweet and Garry Glitter were far removed from reality. Kids could not afford to see bands so they made their own music scene, kids couldn't afford fashion so they made a DIY fashion that everybody could do and afford, Kids felt that they didn't have a voice soy the wrote songs. Punk’s anti-establishment philosophy was born out of anger and frustration and was quickly caught on by disillusioned working-class teenagers who identified with its anarchical message and radical DIY approach to punk and the idea that anyone could form a band or start an independent record label or fanzine. I am not saying Punk invent anything, working class kids formed bands and there were independent labels but after punk anybody could do it/ The fact that many of us picked up an instrument and formed a band means that, like it or not Punk has had a influence on us

Hi I have done tracks for other bands so maybe I help. There are a few ways you could go about this. Are you going to do the tracks yourself or buy them? It is easy to do them yourself if you can find the midi files and on some DAW's you can track the tempo changers of the original song to give you a much more loose feel. try not to over possesses them or uses over possessed sounds., think in the context of what will sound good in your band and try to make the sounds believable, to put it simply think in terms of a live keyboard player rather than a studio production. With pre-rerecorded tracks the mix/sounds can change when summed to mono not the end of the world but worth checking. I have had some clients who feel that the sound in mono is too much of a compromise, it might be worth investing in a 4 track. Lastly you work in live sound so there will be no need to tell you but it is worth mentioning for others, make sure all connections are tight and you keep backups.

Before you invest in acoustic treatment you should understand why you need it and what you need. If I were you Bilbo I would Spend a couple of days playing the bass wearing headphones with someone moving the microphone about, try various rooms, positions in the room and mic positions. even if you can't get the sound you want you will have a better Idea of what's wrong. Next step is to see if you can improve the acoustics with what you already have in your house. When I started playing and by first PA's all I my gear was crap although this was frustrating at times the lessons I learnt were invaluable. Some engineers rely too much on presets, if they want to EQ a bass drum it is easy just to use a preset. It is not unusual for engineers to take this approach to mic placement, every time they record an instrument they use the same method. the trick is when you mic up an instrument is to find the sweet spot or the sound closest to what you want. If you like the sound of you bass then why not place the microphone near you ears, it is worth noting that the sound a player hears is different to the sound in front of the bass. From what I see from your photos you have a wooden floor that might be part of the problem.

That is why a lot of sound engineers don’t a mix in the sound check also it is not uncommon for bands to play half hearted in a sound check which gives a completely different sound to the performance. I have often herd a band in the sound check a thought they were not very good but had to change my mind later. Musicians take note there is little point standing in the middle of a venue shouting orders to the sound man.

Some of the old recordings were made using ribbon microphones. Ribbon mics has a subdued top end unlike modern budget condensers that can be quite brittle. They also have a figure 8 pattern and react to transients differently giving a subtle compression effect. I am not saying go out and bye a ribbon mic but understanding how the recordings you like were made and the equipment used go along way to getting the sound you want. The Internet is full of people arguing about the best technique, preamp or microphone to use but they often fail to ask the most basic question, what sound do you have to start with and what sound you want to record, a multi- mic and DI set up is not the best way to get the old 60s jazz sound if that’s what you are after. The sound of the room is not away your enemy and sometimes the strangest positions can yield good results. It is so easy to think that a getting a great recording is only the next purchase away. IMHO If you can’t get a good recording with a reasonable quality large diaphragm condenser and even the some of the cheapest models are capable of good results then it is down to user error or poor room acoustics. I am sure with a little time and trial and error there is a recording you are happy with in your house.

With acoustic treatment there is a balance between what is needed and what the wife will put up with. One option is, instead of trying to dampen the room use reflection filters to stop the reflections getting into the microphones. it might be worth trying to placing the double bass on a large acoustic foam tail. Try playing facing a bookcases with a quilt hanging behind you. The problem with double basses it is a large instrument and the sound comes from all the instrument not a small part and the low frequencies hare hard to control in a domestic environment. If you understand how and where a instrument producers sound then you half way there to getting a good recording but it's also impotent to understand the sound you are after then you can look at the best way to record it. do you want a in your face close up sound, natural sound or a recording made on a old jazz club A couple of things I have done in the past that might help you is, to use a matching EQ with an imprint from the type of sound you where after and a and convolution reverb with a small jazz club type impulse response.

Recording everything dry is quit a modern approach, a lot of the old and great recordings both rock and Jazz where recorded in colored rooms, it is not about recording an instrument it was about recording an instrument in a room and a engineer would put has much emphasis on placing the instrument in the room has he would about microphone placement.

[size=5][font=Calibri][color=#000000]There are no set rules, If the band are well rehearsed and it is easy to get a faultless performance you will get a better feel if the musicians play together but you will get more controlif you record them individually . [/color][/font][/size] [size=5][font=Calibri][color=#000000]On a modern day D A W there is no need to get the levels has high has most people think. Using a modern 24 bit system half way up the meters or a little less even is more than adequate. I find that some plug-ins start to sound harsh if they are driven too hard by a hot track and the same can be said for some D A convertors if the mix is too hot.[/color][/font] [/size] [size=5][font=Calibri][color=#000000]A typical recording of mine would be: [/color][/font] [font=Calibri][color=#000000]Program or find a suitable drum loop, If the loop has good feel you get a better performance.[/color][/font] [font=Calibri][color=#000000]Record guide guitar or and then vocal track.[/color][/font] [font=Calibri][color=#000000]Record bass if it will help with feel or highlight any accents or chord changes.[/color][/font] [font=Calibri][color=#000000]Record drums, make sure the drums a right before I move on. If you are going to fix the drums do it know before you move on. [/color][/font] [font=Calibri][color=#000000]Record guitars, bass Keys in any order then often individually.[/color][/font] [font=Calibri][color=#000000]Vocals and BV[/color][/font] [font=Calibri][color=#000000]Lastly any programming EG, strings or percussion.[/color][/font][/size]

You have hit the nail on the head, cheap inexperienced engineers. I am sceptical that telling them what to do will get any better results. If you want a particular bass sound and you work with inexperienced engineers use a Pod or Swansamp, to give them a feed they can’t mess up. If the engineer is that bad you could also bring your own desk and link it in to their system. I have been to venues with a couple of bands to do the sound for them but ended up sitting in the audience listening to a crap sound because the venue manager said “ I am not paying my engineer to sit on is xxx doing nothing. I have also baby-sat engineers and I have had to kick a couple off the desk before the do damage to the PA. I remember one guy who spent most of the time telling me how he was the best and most requested engineer for miles around I had to kick him off not only was the bands sounding terrible and the manager and audience compiling, the PA started to walk towards me.

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1320621435' post='1429183'] I have to wonder with bass guitar, where a 2-pickup set up gives a natural mid-scoop, a lot of onboard active pre-amps AND amplifier pre-amps are voiced with a mid-scoop and then run into a cab with a natural scoop (eg typical mid-bass hump and another sensitivity peak coming up to the cone break-up freqs). How much more mid-scooping does it actually need? Also, all that is obviously much less of an issue live with a high-end desk with sweet-sounding full-parametric EQ across 4 or 5 bands. You can probably make it sound like anything you want. It's a bit more annoying at my lowly playing level where FoH is at most semi-para on 1 or 2 mid-bands (mmm old Behringer/Mackie EQ...not so pleasant when you whack it up!). [/quote] Cut the frequencies you don’t want rather then boost the one you do. Cut the frequencies you don’t want rather then boost the one you do. Our ears are far less responsive to frequencies cuts has they are to boosts.

51m0n you have written many great and informative posts and I hope you continue to do. My reason for the come back is, unfortunately some musicians and bands think that most sound engineers are close to use less. So when one engineers starts to criticize another’s method it just reinforces that belief. I think you have to be carful of exact statements, because some musicians feel cheated if it’s not done that way and it’s there job to tell the engineer how it should be done. I believe we should educate people that the best way to get a good sound is let the engineer do their job, not fall out amongst ourselves

There is a simple answer to this a lot of engineers don't know how to mix a jazz or folk band so they treat it has pop or rock.

I am not having a go mate; any one who makes a living from sound must be doing something right. My remark was more a reaction to 51m0n “ This is virtually sound engineering key stage 1 stuff, get this wrong and you are struggling from then on in. If you have had reasonable results with those mics in front of your cab then I'm pleased for you, if you see lots of people do it its because they don’t spend the time thinking about it hard enough (seriously). I guarantee you its easier to mix my way (ha, its not mine personally, I make no claim to it at all, I've merely listened to some great engineers imparting what they have learnt, and tried a lot of different scenarios and used my ears), I know I've been down every possible path for getting bass and kick (and tuba and db) to sit together in a mix that I can think of.” Working live and studio is two different beasts, so when people make comments like this I have to ask what live actual expreance is this based on. Working live is often making the best of the equipment available at the time. Tthere are a thousand ways to do something and a good sound live sound is more down to the skill of the engineer, venues acoustics, good performance and quality of sound source quality of PA then microphone choice. 51m0n, I am not having a pop at you ether, it is just in a few post you have came across sounding like you know best and your method is the only way or the best way. the People who I have met and respect who engineer for a living tend to be more laid back and accept and use different methods depending on the circumstances.

I hate the bass drum wars myself, far too many engineers have one sound, a loud bass drum with the rest of the band fighting there way through. My priorities are to get a sound and volume that is suitable for the venue and act Next I want the clarity to hear the notes of every instrument and every vocal of the performers.

Technical jousting, the pastime of many amateur and semi pro engineers.

I try to stay clear of recommending microphones or saying one method is good or but the other is bad. Ask 100 engineers you will get 120 different answers. I have used bass drum mics lots of time and still got a good sound but they are not my first choice. It’s all down to ears and expreance. If I had a pound for every time a musician said to me, my mate is a great sound engineer and says you should do it this way, then after further questioning you find out his mate is a postman or works in IT

You can't really correct a room acoustics with just a graphic there are phase and timing anomalies to consider and you would need a lot of bands

When you hear your bass sound you are not just hearing the speaker you are hearing the cab in a room . you are right about the tweeter and the port but there is the room acoustics to consider, some frequencies are reinforced by the reflections off nearby surfaces and others are cancelled. Most bass drum microphones are far from flat and like everyone says the placement is very important. A good sound man will hear the sound you are producing and know the best way within his means or time constrains to achieve it. Why is it so important to get the exact sound that you hear? I don't mean turning Jean Jacques Burnel into James Jamerson but a sound that brings out what you are trying to achieve and fits well in the context of the mix. When I started recording I discovered that when something sounds good on its own doesn't mean it will sound good in a mix.

Use this opportunity to learn. Try to fix what you all ready have, maybe try a demo of the SPL transient designer but 51m0n suggestion seems to be spot on. Then try to rerecord the bass part using microphone placement but remember to phase alien with the DI part. Next try play the parts without the problem. The great thing about home recording you can experiment and the more you experiment the more you learn, a far better investment than buying more gear. This is another topic but the more I study the old producers the more I realize that the real art of recording plays second place to fix it in the mix.

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1319704576' post='1417358'] the same problem's on the DI track too! [/quote] Then use the Di sparingly possibly with heavy compression with a fast attack. but just because you have recorder with a DI it doesn't mean you have to use it. It seem to be standard practice to record every instrument has close has possible ,this is not always the best method and in the right acoustic space moving the microphone back can produces a much more natural sound, in short If you like what you hear then record what you hear. Condenser microphones have a faster transient response then dynamics so a condenser may make the problem worse. My advice to anybody recording is get the sound right in the first place if you find a floor in your technique use the opportunity to learn and improve has a musician lastly it is worth listening to the sound in the context of the full track before making the final decision.

move the microphone further away.

[quote name='thunderbird13' timestamp='1317717594' post='1393530'] yeah I've met a fair few people like this who musically are average but have somehow convinced themselves that they are going to make it and have left school gotten a crappy job while they play music at night. Fast forward 30 years and they're still doing the same thing. I dont know sometimes I think its a bit sad and a waste of a life but then again who am I to tell people how to live and if its what they want to do and also what other people want to hear then good luck to them . I'm sure there are many examples of people who have slogged for years before "making it" [/quote] That is sad that you view someone's success by how much money they earn or their job.