ironside1966

I don't think Indi, Rock, Funk, Soul, Punk ect, original or, cover, Signed or unsigned acts are necessarily degrading, cringeworthy or embarrassing... ... but the fact remains, sometimes they are.

Here is a great explanation about compression that is very simple to understand but well worth a listen. http://www.insidehomerecording.com/?p=684 about 15 mins in

If you look at a great bass sound from a live engineers point of view a great bass sound starts from a good arrangement, by that I mean it is not fighting for space by trying to compete with the other instruments. The next important part is the bass players technique, Notes played cleanly with the correct amount of attach, notes not ringing into each other (unless that the sound your after) and of course in time and tune with feel. Then it is down to good EQ of the amp, again you need a setting that allows the bass to do its job but leavening sonic space for the rest of the band IE if you want a in your face bass drum that flaps trousers then you need to leave space for the drum to cut through. The Esq. also needs to be adjusted for the room. Amp placement and decoupling can make a big difference also to the perceived tightness of the sound. if you don't get the things mention above right no amount of compression will give you a tight sound. What people forget is that compression changers the envelope of the sound, it can kill the initial transacts if used badly and it doesn't take allot. I have also that using too much compression can make it difficult to mix because that can eat up too much sonic space. Has a live engineer I would rather the bass player leave the compression to me but if the bass players wants to use a pedal that fine but In my opinion the advantages of having full control over compression at the desk far out way getting a fully compressed signal. Maybe a good discussion to have is what are the pros and cons of compression at the amp stage rather than the desk.

[quote name='slobluesine' timestamp='1342899950' post='1742639'] i play lots of different types of music with lots of different bands and i'm expected to play more and more for free, which is a problem, as i can't afford to loose money, expenses would be good. again i'm surprised that musos are happy to play for free when punters are paying to hear them? [/quote] At what point does you music have a commercial value? Just because you play an instrument does that mean you should get a professional wage? If your hobby is photography are your photos worth anything? the answer is only if people want to buy them, It is same with bands if you can't pull in the punters then you are indulging you hobby and it is not unusual to have to pay to indulge in your hobby no mater how good you are. I personally admire people who play for artistic reasons rather than cash because they keep music fresh and alive. Bands that make money often put allot of time, money and effort into networking, publicity and promotion. They tailor their set to so that for maximum impact to the target audience. They developed the soft skills needed to flourish in an commercial environment. If you ask me should people like that be paid my answer would be a resounding yes. Some bands\Musicians just want to turn up and play what they want without putting the effort into the business side, if you ask me should they be paid I would say it depends. If you are not making money from your gigs you need to ask yourself why.

I have worked professionally has a bass player and as a sound engineer so I look on playing music has a business. Saying that I have no problem with people playing for nothing. Most of the great bands started out working for free and often when moneys involved art forms gets diluted so I believe we would lose far more than we gain. Let me play the devils advocate, if a band can't get enough people in to cover the venues overheads how much is the band worth? Should a venues subsidise a bands? Most bands look on the free gigs has a lost leader to build up a following in order to get paid gigs. I have more of a problem with bands and musicians who don't pay any taxes( illegally) on their musical earrings undercutting and keeping the wagers down for pro and semi pro musicians who do.

Sometimes people use compression to aid their performance. I have remixed quite a lot of home recorded tracks for bands over the years and one of the biggest problems is over use of compression. often less is more and if you can hear it is too much. Better to use too little then too much

It depends on how loud the back line is compared to the PA. and how large the venue is. in a moderate size venue with a reasonably loud band you get a lot of spill from stage any way so a lot of the time you are just reinforcing the back line. Some bands play really quiet and let the PA do the work. Compression will not improve a bass sound but will but can help even the dynamics. once your sound has bounced of a few walls I would doubt that it will make any difference but with a PA you can Put some of the definition back and a compressor will help. Hope that makes sense. My guess it the sound you herd form the other bass player was down to a good technique and control rather then mechanical means

The simple answer is it depends on how the pedal is set. Why do you want a compressor pedal? If you want it to change the sound that is fine. If all you want to do is make your bass sit in the mix better the just leave it to the engineers has they can make judgements in a context of the mix. Also the outboard gear will probably be better quality then a peddle. lastly it is not uncommon for an engineer to tweak compressors has you playing changers through the show.

Tape the rehearsal if he can't tell that he is singing flat from the tape then you either put up with it of get a new singer. There may be a technical reason for him singing flat like not been able to hear himself properly or shouting too much to be herd.

I think you need to ask yourself why do you want one or need a different one and what do you want from it. Is it to change the sound or is to control the dynamics. Some compressors sound can sound great even without compressing because they add subtle distortion and noise. a suspect that you will not get that in a pedal ore low voltage form but a may be wrong. Do you want to change the sound of your bass, add sustain or change the envelope of the notes maybe? Or do you want to control the dynamics of the sound so the bass fits better in a mix? if this is the case you are far better to do this at the mix stage because the engineer can hear the sound in the context of the mix. My personal view is don't buy anything unless you know why you are buying it. one compressor that you know well is worth twenty that you don't.

[list=1] [*]When you can turn round and say a tune sound great has it its and will sound better without my contribution. [*]When you stop using the phrase, Artistic Integrity. [*]When you no longer need to slag of other players or types of music. [*]When you work with a comedian and never so much as raise a smile but the moment the drummer farts you are in hysterics [/list]

I must confess I have done the same with recordings I have done, Singers I have worked with have used musicians and I replaced the part Later on. It is not that the players were bad or doing anything wrong and it is decently not about ego. it's about what is right for the track. If they wanted a recording that sounds like a live bands I would have happily left the part in, but whoever paid me wanted a more produced and polished sound. When a bass player initially track their part they rightly reacts to the what they are hearing, it will properly be a small rhythm section consisting of drums, guitar and a guide vocal. Often has the song builds players tend to react by playing more notes which works well in a small band. Often a better way of creating dynamics and tension is to add more parts, instruments or harmonies. When you start to builds up an arrangement the original bass line may not fit, work or better results can be achieved with something simpler. The more I research producers who I respect I find they all have a deep understanding of music and great arrangement skills. Tony Visconti has said that a major part of his job is sitting down with the musicians and helping them work out arrangements, even when working with talented and creative people Like, Bowie, Eno and Frip and the best musicians available. Don't be disheartened many great players have had their parts removed. If any one wants to make a success out of music then they have take rejection of their Ideas and visions for the music

I have to admit that I was looking at this from a full rig. so I can see your point more The first question to ask is do you all (the band) want or need a new PA or is it just a few. The next question is are you a band or a number of people who just get together and gig. your gear is your own you can take with you and carry on earning so you have not invest in the band you have invested in yourself.

I see a band that works regally has a small business and needs investment , if all you do is take out you will not be able to compete with other acts who do invest back. "Do I need a PA to do my job? No. I spent a lot of money getting a rig that can cope with almost any occasion before needing access to any FOH." You are a share holder in the band so if having a better PA will make you more money, or enable you to carry on earning then you should pay your share. or alternatively you could ask to be but on a wage and relinquish ownership of the band. Arguably you could get away with less gear with a decent PA because get a better sound when the band plays quiet and lets the PA do the work. Bands are never fair, do you pay extra to the person who looks after the bookings, keep the books up to date or drives the van, Ect? I think the singer buying the monitors is a good compromise.

Whatever you decide draw up and sign an agreement. My solution would be to buy the PA has a collective, if anyone levers the band they should get their share providing they work out an agreed notice, taking into account a depreciation. The band should then rent the PA to the Duo for a fair price, the money should go to the upkeep of the PA/Van/ investment/ or annual bonus. if any member of the band is replaced or added then the new member should be put on a wage and the remaining members keep the assets and profits. Above all treat everyone with fairness and respect, treat others has you would like to be treated. I have seen far too many bands split because of greed and the end result is always the same, everyone loses out

Hi 51mon. I am not having a go at you but I do think you are coming at this from a studio perspective, it is not meant to be an insult. I have the experience and competence to work in most live situations but in the studio I still feel like I am just a good armature even though I have undertaken paid work and gained a first class Hon,s degree in music technology last year.( in spite of my bad spelling and punctuation). You see things differently when you work in live situations regularly. I think you are missing the main point of my post, in live you work with limited time and resources often the first time you hear the band is in the sound check so choosing the right mic's is often not a option you go with what you have or what you know will work. The reason why a lot of Venues\ PA companies don't have PR40, RE20 etc is because mic's get stolen so people are reluctant spend too much on them. it is not good advice for a bass player to tell a sound engineer is job you just **** them off. 51mon I have said this before, I respect you a lot, you have a great understanding and good way of explaining complicated subjects in a simple and concise way but the chink in your armour is it comes across in a way that makes it look like if people disagree with you are wrong and fails to take into account that there are many great engineers with many views and techniques who are all capable of getting a great sound. This is a site for bass players not engineers and I think it is far more important for musicians to understand that and the best way to get a great sound with a band live is to let the engineer get on with it. There has been many live shows and many great recordings made with the D112 or similar microphone combination. even DSP amp Sims like the bass pod or Amplitude has the D112 modelled.

I understand what you are getting at but that's like saying you should never EQ a bass amp at the desk. Sometimes a little bottom end lift out front on the bass can be just what is needed others it can be overkill but nothing what a decent EQ can fix desk can't fix. it is not perfect but thats live sound for you, making the best out of the tools you have and the time available. "If you mic up a bass cab with a D112 it may sound great, now don't make life harder for yourself by using the same mic on the kick drum (its original intended role) instead use a mic with an eq that will complement the choice you have already made" I have never had any problems but I get you point that if you want a real low end to the bass you often need a clicky kick with little low energy , although you could side chain the bass comp with the kick.Vis versa if you want a thump on the bass drum you have to watch the low end of the bass. "Simple mixing/tracking 101, as I was taught it". Two completely different disciplines A studio engineer who say he can do live sound without the experience is like a guitarist saying he can play bass

The only time there is a problem when opinion is presented has facts. Live engineers get it in the neck when people read these forums and start to feel that engineers are short changing them because they haven't got the microphone recommended or they use a DI. Kick drum microphones tent to have a particle sound some people like the sound some don't Some sounds or situations they can work well in others they can create problems if you are not carful. A AKG D112 has a hyped frequency response, Fact If you mic a bass cab up with a D112 It will sound S*** ,Opinion To get things into perspective, if you look at the frequency curve of the D112 It is not that far removed from how many bass players will set there EQ

I have to ask this question, why are you not happy with the FOH sound what are you missing? If the band's sound great FOH why is it a problem that your Bass gear is just been used for back line? A couple of points worth mentioning: Before you spend any money you need to understand that there is no such thing has the best microphone for any instrument there are just microphones that will suite your particular needs and preferences better than any other. The sound you hear when stood in front of a cabinet is a combination of the speaker, the cabinet resonating , ports, tweeters plus acoustic reflections from the surfaces in the room. no matter what microphone it is always going to be a compromise. The sound of your rig doesn't stop at the end of the stage so often the majority of sound is coming from stage in a moderate sized room anyway. Bass drum Microphones tend to be very coloured were has a something like the Heil PR40 has a more transparent sound. Any engineer worth is salt knows that something that sound great in isolation or even a amp that sound good stood in front of it may not always sound good in the context of the band. 51m0n, I have the Red5 drum mic's and the Red5 valve microphone and they are are great for the money, better than a lot of the budget Chinese stuff.

Everybody who has played in a cover band has sat in a rehearsal room waiting for some one to learn their parts, which is why it is important to show you can and are willing to learn songs. Auditions are not about getting the best musicians its about getting the right ones, its about finding a team player, some one who is hard working and not going to moan if they have to do something they don’t like. By not learning the songs it means that you may no be the right person for the band or that is how I would see it.

I hate that too, that what I call a musicians mix, I have never been asked by a non musician to turn the kick or bass up but some musicians don't seem happy unless the kick is flapping your trousers.

I find it strange that you have to ask a sound man if He wants to listen to your amp , they should do that naturally if the circumstances permit. When setting the gains I listen to the instrument and gradually pull up the fader and compare them both and they shouldn't be far off.

The first thing to ask is, is the recording a accurate representation of the actual live sound? The sound of the backline doesn't stop suddenly at the end of the stage. I work with the stage sound rather than against it, the clue is in the word sound reinforcement not sound replacement. Often there is enough bottom end coming from the stage amplification so you need to EQ some mid's to give the instrument more definition. Telling a sound man his job is a bit like a sound man telling you how to play.

Let me play the devil's advocate. I have been told more than once by venue managers/owners that bands/ acts that will bring a audience with them is worth a lot more than a band that doesn't, they want bands\acts that can entertain their audience and keep them in the venue. A band that drives customers a way is less then worthless. There are bands and, there are bands and also there are musicians and musicians. Just because you play in a band doesn't necessary mean that you deserve £10 plus an hour. If you invite your mate down with a camera to take some shots of the band would you expect to pay him a pro rate. Some bands put a lot of time and effort into what they do, they choose songs that they know will please their audience, they invest time and money in publicity, they make sure they are well rehearsed and behave in a good professional manner. Other bands just turn up and play, often they play far too loud for the venues and are more interested in showing off on their instrument then connecting with a audience or with the song. Some bands are more likely to choose their material because of the bass line or guitar solo without little thought whether the singer can sing them or not. At the end of the day, it is not about been a full time pro or a semi pro or even someone who gigs once or twice a year. I would just like to dispel the myth that just throwing a couple of cover songs together doesn't mean you have any commercial value, for that you need to put the work in.