ironside1966

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='965841' date='Sep 23 2010, 05:15 PM']TBH it pisses me off when live bands are so bloody loud all the time. Do sound techs learn during their training that the ideal sound pressure level is for listening to music is one that requires everybody in the room to be wearing ear protection? It makes me really angry. Especially when it's us on stage. Nice sig by the way. Half a screen of gear you don't even have any more.[/quote] I think sound techs do get it but when venues and bands pay peanuts you know what you get. I have retired now but I can judge quite well what volume a show should be, if it’s a rock band then it’s a lot louder than a folk trio. The acoustics plays an impotent part to the overall SPL’s if you get too loud in lots of venues the sound becomes a mess. When a bands backline is above the optimum level of a show you either mix up or get a bad mix on most occasions I have personally gone for the bad mix and let who ever dowered the band out. It saves a lot of earache for me and there is less chance of alienating the audience and bookers.

Because of the way our ears work we perceive an increase in volume as sounding better, when we play louder it gives us more of an adrenalin rush so we think we are playing better when it’s loud.

[quote name='bubinga5' post='965750' date='Sep 23 2010, 04:06 PM']Have you ever been in a band that just plays too loud....i went for a rehearsal recently that wanted to do some classic funk covers...i turned up and started playing with these guys, and everything and i mean everything was too loud...im a big believer in sensitivity, space and articulation when playing with anyone.in any musical situation....when i turn up to an audition, im auditioning them as well as them auditioning me...it seems to be one sided when doing this sometimes the drummer was bashing the sh*t out of the drums, the guitarist had a Gibson and was used to playing rock, so his rythm playing was anything but...The male singer didnt have a good voice, and was just belting them out...they told me there used to playing in rough pubs, not that that has anything to do with it...ok there may be a trained ear in the crowd but most are pissed of high and dont care...the only one i thought was good was the organist but he was lost in the mix.. on top of this they were pissed...i never play drunk...i have too much respect for the music...that and i cant play drunk. do you have to be a pro, to play with people who understand the dynamics of good music...maybe im missing the point? anyway i didnt enjoy playing with them...i had the Aggy very very loud, but struggled to get an audible bass note out of it......ive had friends who used to listen to music so loud, i thought they werent really interested in the music...just the effect of loud music.., and i could never understand it..ive always listened to music so i can hear it properly... ive never listened to music on my stereo very loud..i want to hear whats going on..ive have always analysed music, unless its at a party of something. IMO articulation and space and a bit more thought goes so far... i guess im being a snob and its just fun after all? i just like what i like...[/quote] +10000

Why don’t you call yourself a 4/5 string operative specializing in the lower frequencies. I have never got this artistic integrity thing I will be what you want including myself, so longs as you are paying. I am the opposite, I have a little pride in having the skill to give people what they want with the minimum of fuss unless you want a virtuoso or bebop solos.

also if it starts getting silly just leave.

Get them all together and tell the truth but don't make it personal, say we rather than name any one, if the singers say are you having s go at me just say we are have a personality clash no one is to blame but that is one reason why I am not enjoying it. The other two are not stupid they should get what you mean and let them make the first move. Sneaky tactics and bitching not a good personality trait and most of the time it turns round to bite you.

[quote name='Phil Starr' post='961410' date='Sep 19 2010, 06:47 PM'], The devil in me wants to ask what you think of the sound of an upright rather than an electric bass or even an electric guitar rather than an acoustic?[/quote] I love sound of the double bass and it can work well never been fond of the electro acoustic, but I like the 60s semi acoustic bass, its how the sound in the band that counts.

In the past I have done quite a bit of work where the band leader wanted to keep the volume as low as possible and its great, you can really hear what’s going off. Sometimes it’s nice to listen how the harmony works, hear the subtle arrangements and tasteful little runs or riffs , it’s nice to work with great vocals where the singers not to screaming to get over the band. I know that groove and feel are important and you don’t have to lose it because you are quiet. Any musician in a group or ensemble is only as good as their contribution to the said group or ensemble if the musician brings the music down by playing too loud or over playing then I question the ability or musicality of the said musician.

No one’s having a go at loud drummer’s just drummers who can’t or won’t play quiet when needed.

[quote name='JTUK' post='959849' date='Sep 17 2010, 07:49 PM']bad...?? do you mean a bad player..? Do you mean he will pee off the punters or landlord/proprietor? A bad mix is a bad mix A too loud mix is a too loud mix.. We don't have bad mixes where all you can hear is one instrument, can't hear the vocals or anything remotely like that. I don't think we have had a bad recording mix of the band at all..and all we do is throw a zoom dev up in the corner of the room. Of all the rough zoom recordings we have done, they have all ( or tracks from them ) ended up on the band website as examples of our live sound.[/quote] As stated earlier often the reasons drummers can’t play quite is because they lack the ability and like to stay in their comfort zone other reasons are more selfish and this goes for other musicians also, they think that the instrument will not sound as good unless its loud so they are prepared to sacrifice the sound of the bad for their instruments. Inappropriate and excessive volume will upset venue owners and promoters and the result is loss of gigs. If a venue as constant complaints from neighbors then they may lose their license so you spoil it for every one you may be the final straw. It doesn’t take long to take the audiences hearing out so all the subtle chord changers and dynamics soon becomes blurred. Volume can cover a multitude of sins. Every time a punter walks out because it’s too loud you lose potential fans. Microphones are not like ears they can handle higher SPL does not deteriorate at prolonged exposure to high SPL. A loud drum kit in a confined space and cause permanent damage to ears as it can reach SPLs of 110db. I am not having a go loud bands just loud bands in inappropriate places and situations.

A band is a unit and should be able to balance them self’s if one person plays to loud and drowns out the rest of band it is worse than having a bad drummer for most of the audience and is doing the songs no favors at all. If the band have to turn up so loud to compete that it makes the audience uncomfortable then ditto. Not getting into the quiet drummer good loud drummer bad thing but a drummer who can’t play to the environment is bad.

Just get the drummer to play quieter he will get used and it will make a more versatile and useful player.

Hiya Mate When you walk into the venue and meet the sound man he may not now you from Adam you may be a great guy with a great sound or you may not I don’t make assumptions but try to prepare for all eventualities. I would need a reason to mic a cab, a SVT on full on rawk overdrive has a distinctive sound as you rightly point out that will be imposable to get with a DI so mic,ing up is the right thing to do but the majority of players have a prity much run of the mill clean sound. Would you suffer because you had to use someone else’s rig so long as it was fit for purpose most people wouldn’t “Close mic'ed (ie a few inches from the driver) the ratio of room to direct signal is so low as to be all but irrelevant.” One problem with mic’ing a cab is the vibrations from the stage and remember even hypercardioid can pick from the back so they are prone to picking LF wave of the back wall. “How is DIing more convenient, there are more leads involved, same number of devices and so more things to go wrong with a DI than a mic” You are more reliant on the player getting the sound right, how often do you hear players with the mid cut so much that you can’t tell a note they play? Players get a sound that’s fine for their acoustic space but may not be right front of house. Mics can move and a couple of cm can make all the difference, musicians kick then when they are fiddling with their amps knock them over when they are P***ed or performing. Often sound check time is limited so t 10 minutes moving a mic around maybe the time I could have had getting the monitors right. So the simple answer it works well and there is less to go wrong if the amp settings are changed half way through then it is not the end of the world and knob head proof. “The bassist may love what has been taken out by the cab though! Does that make him immediately wrong, and mean he has no understanding of his tone? So why would you insist on putting it back?” No but IF I need to fix it I can “In the case where you DI the bass, do you find you like to compress the signal after the fact. Had you ever thought that if you mic the cab, that cab may inherently be compressing that signal (to a certain extent), since a transducer must be slower than an electrical impulse. Just a thought again...” That is true and that’s often why condensers make good drum and guitar mics but live especially when you use a comp anyway subtleties get lost. “”How many of those 200 to 250 gigs a year did you have the bassist come out to where you were doing sound to hear the FOH? I'd better the bigger the gig the less likely it is to happen (its nigh on impossible to for a start - wireless or no wireless). So they may be happy with how things went, but the player doesnt really know what he sounds like FOH, and they accept that as how its going to be (so they should mate, I've done plenty of FOH too - who do they think they are worrying about the bass sound eh ). So how can you say they love what you did to their sound? They may love the experience, it may have all gone swimmingly, but unless they are in the audience they have no real idea how they sound FOH, its all about trust, making them feel comfortable etc etc”” There is a high level of trust pro musicians are used to working with pro engineers so they know it will be ok. We are a unit with one goal to make the band sound good. If there is a problem or they are not happy they will let you know TBH I have no objections to any one messing with my sound if it’s for the good of the band and I feel comfortable on stage and I suspect a lot of people are the same. The reason I know it was ok is because I worked regular there are many engineers out there who would work for less than my fee just as good if not better.

Just to sum up if I gave the impression that bass frequencies need time to develop then that is not what I intended to say, the sound you hear is the sum of many part not just the drivers. It is not a myth that it is more covenants and there is less to go wrong. Mic; ing is easier to mix depends on many variables including if the stage is hollow and the room acoustic and the actual tone of the cab. It is harder to but back something that’s been taken out so if the sound is muffled, has no mids or the player is compensating for a bright room then you are scrweed so I would always use a di as back up James Jameson used to DI his bass straight to the desk and we all know what a sterile sound that is. In my experience as a free lance sound engineer of many years working with anything from small pubs to large out door events with many kw watts working between 200 and 250 show a year so I must have done something right I would say 95% of the time the bass was Di,ed and no one complained apart fro a few original bands but the pros musicians seemed to be happy.

The simple answer to your question is there is no right answer. Here is what going on in my head when sound checking the bass. When I am setting the levels I am listening to the bass sound then quickly with the EQ I try to match what is coming through the pa with what is coming from the cab. This is not full proof by any means and you are never going to be exact, There may be times when this does not work a good example of this is the stranglers sound where the speakers breaking up is just as important as the pre amp overdrive. Most bass players like good powerful clean sounding speakers (yes I know they color the sound). When mixing the band I try to make the sound work in the context of the music. DI is far more covenant and much less trouble and generally the results are a good sound that works in the mix. Microphones temperamental things they take time and skill to place get the best out of them, you move them a few center meters the sound changes musicians kick them vibrations move them they rumble the sound changes as the levels increase. So really my question to you is why it is so important to get the sound exact?

[quote name='51m0n' post='950071' date='Sep 8 2010, 11:12 PM']Just want to debunk a myth or two:- Bass does not take space to 'develop', its all there at the source!! Try [i]close[/i] micing a tuba, or even a ride cymbal if you doubt this, bass is bass is bass....[/quote] The actualle sound you hear 3 feet from the cab is made up of the speaker the bass port maybe a tweeter then the acoustics you place a cab near a wall or in a corner that will reinforce the bass also. all this takes space to gell together, what about multi speaker set ups. What you said about a tube is a good example because the sound of a brass instrument is not just what comes out of the bell it is the combination of breath the keys in fact the entire instrument, again a cymbal the sound is made up of the entire cymbal vibrating with various harmonics throughout the cymbal but a mic far enough away to pick up the entire cymbal. If you have an overdriven or distorted bass sound then I can see the sense in mic'ing up the cab but if you have a super clean head then why? In the real word if I you do a lot of work with a sound engineer they can try things out over time and improving things. You may hire the PA with plenty of time for a sound check then I would have no hesitation in mic’ing a bass cab but in a lot of venues you are rushed of your feet trying to get 2 or more bands sorted in half an hour then it’s not going to happen will the band sound suffer I doubt it. In the real word if I you do a lot of work with a sound engineer they can try things out over time and improving things. You may hire the PA with plenty of time for a sound check then I would have no hesitation in mic’ing a bass cab but in a lot of venues you are rushed of your feet trying to get 2 or more bands sorted in half an hour then it’s not going to happen will the band sound suffer I doubt it. In smaller rooms there is often enough sound coming from the cab anyway so only a little help is needed. A full room sounds completely different from a empty one and the Di signal is a lot easier to correct then a mic one. With sound men and PA you get what you pay for mayny venues uses students of people working for expreance. anybody can buy a PA and say tey are a sound man and but how many work 5 days a week. Ask 100 engineers and get 100 different answers.

There is a down side to improvising and that is it allows you to keep in you comfort zone it can be a mask to hide flaws in you playing or it can take your playing and the tune or song to new heights. To learn a tune note for note you could learn so much more. Once you have mastered the original part then you have earned the right to improvise. The skill of a musician is knowing when to and when not to improvise having the ability to make an informed choice for the good of the music because he or she as the ability to do both. You are part of a musical arrangement the fact that it is working well with the other elements is what’s important . The amount of people I have met who bang on about musical integrity when really their only concern is to show off their musical talents and I use the term loosely with no concept of the rest of tune or arrangement. There is no right or wrong answers to whether you should improvise it are just the right or wrong reasons to do so.

From my experience The older experienced pros have a sound of their instruments that work well in the context of the band and often this is mirrored in their arrangement of the song so all the sound man has to do is lift the sound. Younger’s less experienced players have a sound that sounds good on its own so then you have to try and correct that and make it work in a band context.

I can see where you are coming from. Most of the bands I have played with where very tight and slick with little room for maneuver, and I like bands like that. Some genres of music like jazz, rock and blues improvising is part of the makeup. IMHO in song dependent music there should be a musical reason for improv, if it is done to impress the musicians in the audience then its back to the old is he a musician or a bass player.

Trust the sound man he is there to make the band sound good. Mic’ing the bass cab can have its problems let’s not forget about feedback and rumble. What you hear coming out of the cab is not what a microphone hears when it’s an inch of the speakers the cab may be ported and have tweeters, the sound of a bass cab takes space to develop. Secondly most people us a kick drum mic which is the most colored microphone in the soundman’s arsenal it has boosted low cut mids a 2 -4 k presences peak.

May be a Wii or bluetooth controler in your pocket or switch stuck on your bass.

Removed

am assuming you already have a few microphones and are looking for something for that particular purpose. My advice would be get one good all rounder and a couple of SD condensers The question is how much you want to spend. There are some great mic about for not a lot of money from Rode, Se also have a look at the Red5 Audio there valve one is great for the money, or do you want to go for something expensive straight away so you never have to buy again. It is easier to make a mic with character than to make a mic with a flat or transparent response. Pros and cons - on my horrible nasally voice a mic with strong presence would exaggerate that were as a nice fluffy warm mic should sound better, now enter Chris Rea the one with the presence peak will help him cut through the mix and the fluffy warm one will be too much . A neutral mic may not always sound the best but it would suite most applications. The point I am trying to make is don’t fall into the trap of buying gear for the sake of it. My choice of mics would be Cheapish LDC, Red5 Valve mic –SMD, SE 1a Mid Neumann TLM102 - SE 3 or NT55 High Neumann U87 or TLM193 – Neumann KM 184 But used correctly even the cheaper ones are capable of great results.

Use a comp or limiter