Bilbo

I agree 100%, Mark, but I don't think he is there yet. I always remember my third year O level biology teacher, a Dr Suter, who started the year's biology class by saying 'remember what I told you last term about photosynthesis? Well, it wasn't strictly true'!! I recall this lesson because it remained with me as an example of the need to pace learning so as to make informtion digestable. If you gave a beginner Rimsky Korsakov's 'Principle's of Orchestration' at their first piano lesson, s/he'd run a mile!!

I had this trouble once over dog barking. The prat next door (who was one of the most irritating territorial gits I have ever met - and he was only in his 20s) wrote to the council, they wrote to us saying they were monitoring the situation. We did nothing because we felt the complaint was unreasonable. That was the last we heard of it (2004). The world is full of what are called 'vexacious litigants', inveterate complainers who have nothing better to do than seek exercise power and force their values onto others. They usually do it anonymously because they lack the social skills to do it to your face. These people are ill-equipped to live in close proximity to others and should go and find a cottage up a mountain somewhere where they can live in silence and without someone invasing their vast acreage of personal space. You have a right to make reasonable noise and it sounds to me that you are being reasonable by stopping at an reasonable time, not playing there every day and not playing too loud. Most councils would agree with me. I wouldn't lie awake worrying about it.

I think people are talking about different things here and you are both right. An interval is an interval. The melodic difference between an C and an E is either a third up of a sixth down. Whatever else is going on, that is a given fact. If you change the harmony by adding a third or fourth note, you are changing the context not the interval. The OP asked about hearing notes and intervals, not harmonic contexts. Obviously, the addition of a different bass note changes the context/sound of the overall chord but it does not change the interval between the first two notes, only their relationship with the new note. The relationship between C and E if C is the root is obviously different if C is the fifth and E the seventh of an F chord but the interval between C & E remains the same. Learning this stuff is about increments. If the OP is learning the difference between and 3rd and a 4th, throwing a melodic minor chord scale reharmonised in all the keys and asking him to play it without a bass in his hands is probably a bit much and will intimidate rather than facilitate learning at this stage.

Not bad, just naive....

[quote name='thepurpleblob' post='464353' date='Apr 16 2009, 08:04 PM']I give up.... you're all weird and I don't know what you're talking about - Canteloop?? Are you seriously suggesting that I go to a Jazz jam and ask to play? I'm a covers band player for gawds sake. I've never played a note that I haven't copied off a record in my life (no, really!!)[/quote] Then you have a way to go before becoming an out and out jazzer. There are, however, several riff based tunes that you could play be learning the two/four bar riffs/ostinatos that constitute the arrangement; Canteloupe Island, Watermelon Man, Sidewinder, Song For My Father, Chameleon etc. You could easily sit on on those tunes without looking like a idiot. You just start there and build. The fact that these tunes bore me beyond belief isn't your problem; it's mine. For me, if someone has the core skills; time, intonation etc, then they are welcome at jam sessions and I agree they are a great place to start. My beef is with people that come along and take up valuable 'stage' time who actually can't really string three notes together that are in tune or in time, never mind play anything genuinely worth hearing. Sadly, it is often the case that these 'non-starters' outnumber the more credible contributors and, for me, can undermine the potential of the occasion. This is not about elitism but about saying there are some basic principles that you need to deal with as a player before you go on stage in public. There is another side to that as well. Some of these people are so bad that all we are really doing is allowing them to make fools of themselves in public. X Factor auditions at a local level.

Too much competition. I am told that PC/PS3/X-Box gaming is now bigger than music and film. AT £40+ a game, this is money that previously would have gone on music. There are musicians out there that earn a better living composing for games than they ever did for playing live. I guess a lot of these gamers are also less likely to go out to watch bands. When I was a young developing player, I could go out and see name bands doing 40 date national tours and each tour would present you with a new support band (or two). There also seemed to be more festivals etc. Nowadays its a night or two at the big, big venues. Ticket prices are prohibitive (£100+ for some gigs - what the hell is THAT about). My point is not that the opportunities to see live music are not there, simply that they take up a lot more of your disposable income than they did when I was a kid. I used to go out 3/4 nights a week watching live bands, many for free. Now, despite earning more than 90% of the UK public, I can't afford to go and see the major bands (tickets plus travel). Rock is no longer the voice of youth but the voice of corporate America. If you don't sell big, you don't sell at all. This process only serves to homogenise things (like tv; hundreds of channels all basically targeting the same demographics). All this is, however, changing and new options are presenting themselves but, as has been said, it is no longer enough to be a passive consumer. You have to go looking. Like all art forms, the avant garde becomes mainstream and then conservative before assuming its righful place as a minority interest. PS - I saw Mungo Jerry at The Cartoon in Croydon in 1988. They rocked.

How disappointed was I when I opened this thread?

What made you the bassist you are today? Years of playing, practising, listening, thinking, reading, arguing, watching, wanting Who do you think had the biggest influences on how you play now? Me – not as arrogant as it sounds. I believe that the information necessary to make you a good player is out there but it is you, how you think, where you focus you energies, how you process your experiences etc and what makes you tick that most defines what you become as a player. Where do you think you want to go from here? I want to make great music and don’t really care what part the bass plays in that. Why do you think you want to go there? Because I have listened to a lot of music and consider the music to have moved me most to have been created by great composers and great musicians not great instrumentalists. Do you believe you have a "personality" on the bass? Yes – I have a sound that is mine alone – whether anyone else likes it is another matter!

Reading this thread, I have just realised that, whilst I know the theory, I refer to the interval in question as a whole tone above or below and don't start talking about intervals numerically until its a minor third or greater - major or minor seconds are not generally in my vocabulary. Flattened ninths, yes, but not minor seconds. Odd that.

I had never heard of them, despite having Fux's book on my book shelf! Best I read it then?

It is not that they are inately crap - it is that there are 53 million songs out there and everyone playes those 5. Punters like them because they are passive consumers not because these compositions are particularly good. There are literally thousands of tunes that have equal levels of immediacy and are easy to play but, because people can't be arsed to look for them or to transcribe them/prepare charts, they never get an airing. Re: your two graduates from Birmingham conservatoire jazz course and the trombone player on the classical music course - in my experience, this is no guarantee of anything. People who get qualifications as players can be superb but they can also be pretty average if they lack the passion. As a self-trained musician, I am sometimes stunned by the poor playing of conservatory trained musicians. Re: snobbery - it is not the elitist in me that makes me dislike most jam sessions, it is the unwillingness of the British musicians to say 'go away and practice some more' to the more dysfunctional attendees. If someone plays like Sanborn, I will play with them, even thought he is not my favourite player. It is when they play like Sanborn's dog that I get hacked off. I suspect the standard in London is higher than it is in Ipswich

Don't know NItti but have all the rest. All great works. Good call, Rayman. Isn't Don Byron great? Have your heard Bill Frissel's 'Have A Little Faith'? Superb.

Big Bands are a great place to start. You get to hear some great arrangements and play with some more experienced players. I think they are better because you can't even sit in unless you have a few basic skills under your hands. This cuts out the non-starters and makes for a more productive use of your time. I am not complaining about people being relatively new to jazz, I am complaining about people at jam sessions that can barely get a note out of their horn let alone phrase an idea.

AAAAAAAARGH! If you want to know about jazz, stay away from jam sessions that play Canteloupe Island, Watermelon Man, Chameleon, C Jam Blues and So What! Sorry, Spike, I know what you are saying is probably true but these jam sessions are, in my experience, rarely attended by anyone that can actually play any credible jazz. Its a tragedy but most good players would either be gigging or practising at home. These tunes are horrible (I actually refuse to play the first two - ever - and the others are rarely allowed out). They are seen by many as a great introduction to jazz but they are enough to put anyone off, particularly when played by people with bad time, no technique and no credible vocabulary. I too often see people at these sessions who have not yet dealt witht he fundamentals of their instruments and who are, to all intents and purposes, delusional. Just imagine. If you were interested in seeing what jazz was about and went to one of these sessions as your forst experience; you would be put off it for life. Find something more worthy of your time. As for suggestions of what to listen to: look for my GOD, I LOVE JAZZ thread here. There are 100s of suggestions, from me and others.

The problem I have with recommendations about jazz is that it is easy to put people off by sending them off in the wrong direction and confusing them with second-rate product. The 'its all music' perspective sounds perfectly reasonable and does prevent arguments but it also stops legitimate discussion (what's wrong with arguments, anyway? - its good to argue - its only bad to fight). It also means that nothing is bad, good, great or essential listening. Of course its subjective - we all get that but to suggest that the merits of Duke Ellington or Charles Mingus are no greater that those of Kenny G or Candy Dulfer is superficial. If you want to argue Sonny Rollins over Coltrane or Wynton Kelly over Erroll Garner, I'm listening but, when discussing what constitutes good jazz, to suggest The Crusaders are as meritorious as, say, the Bill Evans Trio is to deny the historical importance of each contributor. Its not all good. Its not ok to like everything - it lacks any form of critical thinking. An open mind is a great thing but an undiscerning mind is no more valuable than an closed one. By the way, the Crusaders are OK. They just ain't great jazz....

Depends whether it is a II chord in a Bb major scale or a VI chord in a Eb major scale. Or a I chord in a C minor key or a IV chord in the key of a G minor. It could be a II chord in a melodic minor mode....... I am being facetious. A C minor chord would ususally be a II chord in the major key of Bb so you could play a Bb major scale (Bb C D Eb F G A Bb) or a C dorian (C D Eb F G A Bb C - the same thing but starting on the second note). You could also play a minor pentatonic (C Eb F G Bb) but this is just the same thing again but with the D and A left out (weaker notes of the scale). Does that help?

Again, I would urge caution. The Crusaders are not what a lot of people would call jazz - maybe pop/funk/fuzak? Not sure where to put them but jazz? I wouldn't put them very deep into that category. Its not my call but bands like these can be a bit sugary for people brought up on edgier musics like rock and punk. As I said - look around.

On the floor underneath my PC, down the back of the sofa, in that little pocket inside the r/h pocket of my jeans (but not the pair I am wearing), in the top pocket of my suit jacket, in some of my guitar cases but never the one I have with me, on the floor of my car....

It is interesting to see people's definitions of what constitutes 'jazz', both good and bad. If you find Miles boring, you are missing a trick. Try Porgy & Bess, Sketches of Spain, Miles Ahead, Birth of the Cool, Kind of Blue, Nefertitti or Miles Smiles. If you still find him boring, go get a head transplant . The stuff people have listed here as jazz is controversial. David Sanborn is considered to be a bit lightweight and enough to put anyone off for the saxophone for life. Louis Arnstrong is one type of jazz, Duke Ellington a second, Herbiw Hancock and third and Mike Stern a fourth. You may hate one or two or, indeed, all four of these but like some other jazz forms. Stern, for instance, is widely regarded to be repetitive but he is a particularly sophisticated composer and his soloing is a lot deeper than a lot of people think (try and write some down, you'll be astonished). I think, for someone like yourself, I would recommend that you spend some time rooting around your local library's jazz section, scanning YouTube etc and looking at stuff. Look for all of the people listed above, get a book on jazz and find some names, follow them up, check them out - and don't trust what anyone writes about jazz. There is some great stuff out there but it is unlikely to come to you, you have to go find it. As for seeing it live, I would urge caution in that local scenes can be very inconsistent and there is some pretty poor jazz being played out there. Look for something involving big names where the standard is going to be high but, most of all, don't stop after a few bad experiences. Jazz is a broad church and, despite having spent nearly 30 years playing and listening to it, there is plenty of stuff out there that I hate. As for easy stuff to play (and read), look here for my Milt Hinton transcription of Branford Marsalis's 'Housed From Edward'. Simple straight quarter note walking at its best. I think you can get the track as an MP3.

I was asking the same thing last night. I did a gig with a scratch band in which the keyboard player was from a nationally sucessful 80s/90s band. Hecounted every tune in at least 30&% faster than it shoudl have been and everything sounded rushed as a result. I believe that the two most important things in establishing a groove to die for are a, the SOUND (of the bass, the drums etc) and b, the tempo. If either of thise isn't right, the groove will only ever be a 'nearly but not quite'. SteveK's advice is sound.

I have a great VAO cd of arrangements of Strauss tunes - brilliantly mad. And I also really rate their guitarist Alegre Correa as a composer (his Terra Musica cd is a real favourite). I have not been able to hear a lot of Maria Schneider music as her cds are so hard to find (and v. expensive on Amazon). I really rate what she does (although I think her first teacher. Bob Brookmeyer, resonates in her arrangements more than Gil Evans)

Don't ever mention mindless noodling again! This is exquisite (the Maria Schneider Orchestra) [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJPFVF2j3ok&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJPFVF2j3ok...feature=related[/url]

Have seen Seb but not seen or heard Polar Bear. Will check them out. Just listening to Leafcup. Interesting grooves and textures - a kind of mix between Mingus and Medeski, Martin & Wood. I like it. [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZwvH24lRSk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZwvH24lRSk[/url]

I always recommend Mark Levine's 'Jazz Theory Book'. It has a nice clear lay out and is easy to follow and is not just for jazz players so don't let the title put you off. Where are you? There may be someone near you on here who can help.

Me too. Have used it to help manage some hand and arm problems I have experienced. WHilst it did not cure, it certainly stopped it getting worse. Highly recommended.