51m0n

Nah mate, the games changed completely in that time. Back then you would be lucky to record more than 4 tracks at a time (really not demo kit to do 8 tracks) A dedicated machine means you can tailor it to get latency right the way down to under 3 or 4 ms, which is nice, and keep it there. What you could do on mix down was incredibly limited, CPU's could only handle a couple of plugins etc etc, hard drives were smaller and slower, and 32bit OS meant you could only address <3GB of RAM in your wildest dreams. Now a decent laptop can certainly handle a complex mixdown. The issue is still the tracking. You need a FAST harddrive (or RAID array), which you wont find IN a laptop (speeds over 5400rpm are unheard of in laptops, since they use up the battery so fast). USB cant handle the throughput required either (1.0, 2.0 or 3.0) you therefore need an eSATA port. That limits your choice significantly for a start. I'm seriously considering something [url="http://www.dabs.com/products/hp-probook-4520s-i5-480m-320-4-pr-7CWM.html?refs=466480000-51340000-22"]like[/url] this myself... If you want to multitrack you need a full feature fullspec interface (try looking on the [url="http://www.rme-audio.de/en_index.php"]RME site[/url]). If you can get away with piecemeal tracking (ie not more than 4 tracks at a time) you can easily produce release quality (never mind demo quality) tracks given the time and knowledge. The first two tracks on [url="http://www.invisiblelandscapes.co.uk/lh_music.html"]this page[/url] were tracked on a zoom H4n (for the drums) and indivual pieced together after the fact with a simple 2 channel m-audio interface into a mac book. Mix down was on a 4 year old bog standard bottom of the range Dell office PC.

I've got very very close to some of Nigel's bass playing over the last few weeks. He's absolutely right, it's all really simple stuff. It's also some of the hardest stuff to create that I've ever heard. He plays exactly what the song needed, even if the song didn't know it yet. Classic parts, with real empathy for the musical whole and massive space for everyone else to shine. Silly s*d worrying about his musicality, he is one of the most musical players I've ever heard.

[quote name='silddx' post='1263015' date='Jun 9 2011, 06:07 PM']Oi! You! Get back to your honeymoon!! Hope you had a fantastic day mate! I've left you well alone so you get some peace from all the music, and I find you on here talking about compressors again! Go away and drink wine with your wife [/quote] Amazing day mate, hottest day of the year so far, lovely food, lovely friends and family, lovely ceremony and lovely car! I am left with an abundance of wine however (it was too hot a day for heavy drinking) and have momentarily stopped drinking it. I shall get right back to it at once

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='1262098' date='Jun 8 2011, 11:31 PM']I don't disagree with the thrust of Simon's comments on this thread, but as a soundman I have frequently used a compressor to even out playing due to a dodgy technique, especially for those types of bands that pogo around shouting like mentalists when they play. For that I use much faster attack/release times, and a threshold of around 4:1 with a soft knee set so it's just biting on a slightly quieter than average note. Not perfect and decent technique is preferable but it does save the day sometimes.[/quote] I wasn't trying to say a compressor wont even things out some, I was saying it will neither completely remove all dynamic expression, nor hide bad technique. As you say it will even out over abusive dynamics, but at the expense of showing up any poor technical limitation the player has. I constantly use a compressor to even things out in mixes and live, but the more work you make the compressor do the more artefacts it leaves, the more obvious it gets. This can be great, or it can be pants, depends on the player and the musical setting. You are setting up a compressor to try and take out the peaks as quickly as possible when someone gets over exuberant, you may find a limiter for the peaks and lengthening your attack gives an even more natural sound when the player isnt going mental. If they even care , lets face it punk as often as not has a dynamic range between in your face and total annihilation. I think we are saying the same thing really

[quote name='bassbluestew' post='1260774' date='Jun 8 2011, 09:28 AM']SIMON - how do you rate the built in compressors on the TC amps? I'm not sure they have limiters built in too. Your post made very good sense regarding only using compressors and limiters together, first time I have heard that. Must do more research. S for Stewart - not Softie[/quote] TC built in compressors are their three band jobbies aren't they. I've only had a 30 minute play with one of their heads, TC450, and certainly didnt get to real extent that you can muck about with the compressor beyond its simplest settings (like, on, and how on you want it I think). Its a pretty good effort at a transparent multiband digital compressor, but the metering was pretty nonexistent (as far as I could tell), which makes it very very hard to know whats going on really. Multiband compressors need meters for each individual band, that takes up masses of real estate on the facia which just is not available on those amps. Dont know if they have any kind of limiter built in either, they certainly might have though. Do they work? Yes, can you tell how hard they are working? Not easily!

Or you could use the search functionality [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=139947"]LINK[/url]

Reaper.... <runs and hides>

[quote name='risingson' post='1260569' date='Jun 8 2011, 12:21 AM']Can we sticky your posts somewhere? I really do think stuff like this will help people understand more about how compression and limiting works outside the sea of misinformation that gets bandied around on the internet![/quote] Where did the embarrassed smiley go! Yeah it would be a good idea to get the compressor thing stickied, would save on typing and make looking up the relevant posts a whole lot easier. Just glad to be able to help

[quote name='jonunders' post='1259903' date='Jun 7 2011, 04:48 PM']Hi, I ues a G&L 2500 through a Markbass lm111 and a bareface compact. I am approaching my first gig and it has been suggested trying a compressor in the system to soffen out the peaks and troughs which appear in my playing, i may get a bit excited. Is this a good or bad thing or will my money be waisted. Having looked on line, which ones, sub £100 are any good and which ones should be avoided. Thanks Jonathan[/quote] Personally I'd say save up something closer the £250 mark as an absolute minimum for a serious compressor. Or get something cheap with all the controls (threshold, ratio, attack, release, make-up gain, knee) and good metering of input, output and gain reduction so you can learn how this effect works, and how to set it up before you go anywhere near a gig with one. If you don't you will only make matters worse. Until then leave the compression to the sound engineers, and work on your techinque.

Can I point something out to all those here who have some belief that a compressor will remove all dynamics and render your playing lifeless, and equally to all those here who believe it will eradicate any kind of bad technique. You are all wrong. Really really utterly misguided and proof beyond any doubt that you don't really know how a compressor works compared to a limiter say, how it can and should be used in a live context and have not ever used a serious compressor to achieve any specific goal. In which case, don't buy a compressor a few days before a gig, and expect it to work miracles. A compressor, unless set up to completely extreme settings of either threshold or ratio or both, will not either iron out all the dynamics, or render poor technique unnoticeable. Set up properly a compressor is pretty near transparent. By which it is meant that you cannot hear it in operation. You can measure it, you can hear it in the context of a mix, but you actually cant hear it soloed unless you really know what you are doing. Set up properly a compressor can achieve 6dB of compression and you can't feel it when you play, you can't hear it when you listen, yet your quiet signal is 4 times louder than it was. 4 times louder compared to you loudest signal. Or to put it another way, your average RMS level is increased by around 3dB. This is HUGE. You cant feel it though, when you dig in you still perceive the louder note as louder, as a result of the change in the transient, the amount of treble and the decay of thee note. Its all still is there to hear, the compressor will not magic that away. If it is set up right. Any crappiness in your technique will be made far more obvious. Any dodginess in your groove, any excessive fret noise, any bum notes will be made as loud as can be, and will be heard. By everyone in the audience. DO NOT BUY A COMPRESSOR IF YOUR TECHNIQUE IS NOT SORTED ALREADY!!!! Next point, a compressor without a limiter as well is nigh on useless in a live context. You need to set up a compressor to allow the leading edge of the transient to pass, so the attack must be fairly long (say 100ms), otherwise you will rapidly lose those all important clues to the nature of the attack that psycho-acoustically fool you into hearing the dynamics perfectly. This long attack allows the transient to be uncompressed, but the makeup gain you set to raise you overall level also takes up the level of the peak. Without a separate limiter after the compressor you cant stop the most over exuberant peaks from clipping your rig. So you cant get the most out of your compressor. A limiter is different from a compressor, not in what it does, but in the way it is designed to do it. Both devices prevent signal over a set level (threshold) from increasing in volume by their natural amount. A compressor may sniff signal over several tens of milliseconds to determine if the level has crossed the threshold, a limiter may do this over several nanoseconds. So the limiter is all about the peaks, a compressor is more concerned with the averages. A limiter attack setting may be measured up to a millisecond or 10, a compressor attack is typical from 10 ms up to as much as 500ms. Again limiters catch peaks. A limiter will have a ratio near infinity to 1, certainly no less than 10 to 1, a compressor will have a ratio settable from 1:1 to 20:1 typically, some go higher. Compressor are far more gentle devices. A limiter has a threshold set less than a dB from maximum a compressor can be set with a threshold as low as 40dB from maximum and still be useful. I typically set up my compressor with an attack time of around 80 to 120 ms, a ratio of as little as 1.4:1 and a low low threshold. The release is usually around 100ms to 200ms, sometimes less. I aim to get around 6dB of gain reduction, I use the makeup gain to add this in to my level. I turn the compressor off and set the limiter so it just lights up when the loudest peaks come in, then turn the compressor back on. I then have transparent compression that adds some punch and keeps disparate techniques at a similar output volume from the speaker. Yet I still have total dynamic control. The issue I have to deal with with this set up is that if I make a mistake everyone can hear it.

[quote name='THEACEOFBASS' post='1077319' date='Jan 4 2011, 02:57 PM'][url="http://www.digitalfishphones.com/main.php?item=2&subItem=5"]http://www.digitalfishphones.com/main.php?...2&subItem=5[/url] i love the blockfish(not just on a bass)[/quote] Spitfish is one of the best de-essers I've used full stop....

[quote name='Phil-osopher10' post='1256783' date='Jun 4 2011, 08:19 PM']Would it be better to just work on my technique what do you use them for?[/quote] A compressor will not fix bad technique, that's just nonsense, if anything they make bad technique more obvious. You can use them for adding sustain, adding punch, ducking (sidechain), smoothing off attack, gentle levelling, transparent levelling, completely redesigning the transient of a signal, crushing a signal until its a lifeless pulp on the floor all beaten and bruised. None of which is the wrong thing to do, its just a question of picking the right one to do at the right time. If you don't have the controls on the device in question, or decent metering on the device, or the knowledge of how to use them you will usually do the wrong thing unless you have a fair amount of experience with them.

Suggestion:- Bass and drums session. Take a drum machine, set up a clap (not a click or a kick or anything else, make sure its a clap) 4 on the floor, accented hard on 2 and 4. Record the two of you playing your favourite track. Set the tempo on the drum machine to your favourite track and play along with it going through the PA, for about ten minutes. Work the changes (verse groove for 2 bars, chorus groove for 2 bars, repeat and rinse) Turn off the drum machine and re-record the track. Compare the two. You will LOVE the difference this exercise makes! Go through the entire set like this with the drummer. Next full rehearsal do the same thing to the whole band. Keep making the clap on 1 and 4 quieter as you get better at this, it will help the band to swing if they have sole ownership of the one.... I've used this technique with about 3 bands, it always always improves the tightness and subsequently the confidence of the band, although thy will bitch about how hard it is in the beginning.

[quote name='BassBod' post='1252856' date='Jun 1 2011, 04:38 PM']I've always used squeeeeky clean amps (SWR, Euphonic) then messed them up a bit with a Sansamp - it is a bit distorted and overcooked, but you don't hear that in a band context. Just sounds "older" to me. Thought about compression..but I'm too lazy![/quote] What if I told you you just done did the compressing thing inadvertantly, would that help you feel less lazy?

[quote name='TimR' post='1252733' date='Jun 1 2011, 02:49 PM']Technically it's LESS than boosting the mids. Generally with transistor distortion you are getting mainly even harmonics and with tube distortion you're boosting the odd harmonics. This is why it sounds different to just boosting all the mids. It still has the same effect overall for the same reason but will sound different.[/quote] There was me lead to believe tubes were mainly even harmonic distortion... This chap did some experiments with tube vs tape distortion [url="http://www.endino.com/archive/arch2.html"]here[/url] that are pretty interesting IMO....

[quote name='silddx' post='1252620' date='Jun 1 2011, 01:03 PM']I'd love to, but then Kit would kill me Honestly, I know my tones are decent to begin with, but my bass has never sounded so good mate![/quote] Fair enough, I will redouble my efforts to get the lot done so she can post them up as soon as possible, just the wedding & honeymoon slowing me down....

[quote name='Beedster' post='1252597' date='Jun 1 2011, 12:45 PM']How unlike you to mention compression 51m0n Thanks mate, thought you'd be along pretty quick! Having thought about it a little more, I guess what I've noticed with adding some dirt to the bass in recording is that whilst soloed it sounds distorted, in the mix it doesn't, and in fact sounds surprisingly like the original bass track, just without the needles and cones bouncing around so much (i.e., the natural compression you mention). It definitely doesn't sound more middy to my ear, that's for sure. Another reason for my line of thinking in this is that, like Clarky, I play DB against a big drummer and it can be a struggle to get the bass up in the mix without changing the tone dramatically. I'm wondering whether, somewhat counter-intuitively, I should be ramping up the gain of the DB signal a little also? C[/quote] Dont underestimate the power of "psychoacoustic fuzzyness" With this new pschoacoustic fuzzyfelt set I can make your bass leap out of a mix and cuddle you to death.... You are experiencing a phenominan long used in studios to make everything a bit more apparent - back in the day it was often achieved by driving the tape 'too hard', tape saturation is a lovely thing! DB live is a feedback bitch, compression makes feedback MORE likely (think about it) so you would be well advised to experiment with extremem caution!

[quote name='silddx' post='1252593' date='Jun 1 2011, 12:42 PM']If the bass sound 5im0n is getting on my band's mixes is anything to go by, I can only concur. 5imon makes me sound like I have the best tone in the world It's a delight to listen to. The tone had some drive and a fair amount of low mid, but it sounds amazing now Si's got hold of it![/quote] You'll have to post some examples or people will think I'm bribing you mate

Also of note is the way the overdriven sound being compressed is going to make a real change to the envelope of the sound. It will sustain more, so you are more audible for longer. Remember you are fighting the big bad kick drum live. If your bass's thud is in the same space as the kick thud then you will have to fight the kick. If your bass is compressed by a bit of drive then it will be louder after the kick, and so be easier to hear in the mix. If you doint want drive, thenget a good comrpessor and set it up right and you will be laughing

Short answer : yes. Longer answer: Fletcher Munsen curves, so yes. Really long answer: The human ear is most sensitive around the mid frequencies, removing those from the bass sound makes it a) harder to hear) harder for the brain to work out the pitch. This can be good if you dont want people to know if you've hit the right note, but it also means that in order to be 'heard' you turn up louder than you need to. On one hand you can add some dirt to add some info up in the mids. this is nice as the dirt is also a form of compressor (oh god here he goes [i]again[/i]) so the added info 'stays in play' more evenly than if you just eq it in, you get a more even mix regardless of notes played, style, technical aberrations etc. If you like a bit of warmth/overdrive/dirt this is just a superb solution then. If you like i clean then more mids (not stupid amounts) and a well set up clean compressor will achieve exactly the same result without the dirt....

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='1185601' date='Apr 2 2011, 10:03 AM']Ooh, I've got one of those too! [url="http://www.fxpansion.com/index.php?page=125"]Have a look[/url]. [/quote] Dayummmn that shure is purdy!

[quote name='lowdown' post='1246785' date='May 27 2011, 10:40 AM']It was for you really - I just knew you would be the first along... I was not sure if Reaper had K Metering. Garry[/quote] Damn I'm so predictable, cheers though! Nope Reaper doesnt have any such metering built in that I've found, I've used a few other bits and bobs with Kmetering though ([url="http://www.voxengo.com/product/span/"]voxengo vst called span[/url]) which is pretty damn fine, try it...

[quote name='slobluesine' post='1251617' date='May 31 2011, 03:17 PM']never been a big fan of Queen but their Live Aid show must be the best 20mins of live Rock n Roll your ever gonna see or hear[/quote] +1

[quote name='4000' post='1251462' date='May 31 2011, 01:38 PM']Thanks for the clarification. I thought it was a typo. Interesting point regarding the sound thing. I do all my band's recording and mixing (although not to what I would class anything like a professional standard as I don't have the necessary technical knowledge and hence rely on my ears) and sound in that sense is something I've always been very interested in, so I think I can separate the 2 quite easily. EDIT: in fact the more I think about it I probably spend far more time these days listening to the sounds produced than the actual playing in most cases.... a career as a sound engineer awaits! (not!).[/quote] Read a lot, practice a lot. Thats all that seperates you from the 'pros' really. The amount of time you have spent on it. You have acces to more gear than almost anyone did just 25 years a go. For free. Really.

[quote name='risingson' post='1251562' date='May 31 2011, 02:34 PM']My point was that nobody sounded like Queen apart from Queen really, they pioneered a sound for themselves. 10cc were great writers with great production values but their music wasn't nearly as enduring as Queen's![/quote] Ahhh, I see your point, "production" in this case may mean something slightly different to me than to you. Queen did absolutely hit th nail on the head for enduring singles, however they also produced some right old plop too IMO. Most of the stuff not on their Best Of albums really.... I liked this progam because it sort of dipped its toe into the chasm of plop too. I do strongly think that the 10cc produciton I brought up is absolutely staggering though, and totally holds its own to this day. All the Abba stuff is superbly produced too. And they wrote as many enduring tracks as Queen did, but they didnt go on as long. Higher hit rate of classics perhaps?