noob fingering Q

[fatback]

Hi all,

getting a bit confused over left hand fingering in the low positions.

Do I use the third finger to support the pinkie or to support the second finger? I find supporting the pinkie much more comfortable. Are there two approaches to this?


Books (and players) seem to differ.


Thanks for your advice

[Doddy]

Generally in the lower positions you will be using fingers 1,2 and 4 with the third finger supporting the forth. At least that's what
I was shown and what most people I know tend to do. The forth finger,being weaker, needs the support more than the second.

[endorka]

Doddy describes by far the most common approach, which is Simandl. It is generally believed to be the best way to achieve good intonation. I use it as well, and I would recommend that you do too :-)

Using fingers 2 & 3 together I believe is an Italian technique, described in the Nanny (?) book, and is rarely used nowadays. I have tried it out of curiousity and it seems contortionistic and bizzare. Definitely not as intuitive and obvious for accurate intonation as Simandl.

Jennifer

[fatback]

[quote name='endorka' post='918815' date='Aug 8 2010, 03:59 PM']Doddy describes by far the most common approach, which is Simandl. It is generally believed to be the best way to achieve good intonation. I use it as well, and I would recommend that you do too :-)

Using fingers 2 & 3 together I believe is an Italian technique, described in the Nanny (?) book, and is rarely used nowadays. I have tried it out of curiousity and it seems contortionistic and bizzare. Definitely not as intuitive and obvious for accurate intonation as Simandl.

Jennifer[/quote]

Great. Thanks to you both.

This came up because two players insisted to me that 2+3 was the right way, and it just doesn't feel good to me. Transferring from fretless bg to the Simandl way on db isn't too bad at all.

[Bilbo]

Another couple of good starter books here.

[url="http://www.neiltarlton.com/"]http://www.neiltarlton.com/[/url]

[fatback]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='919245' date='Aug 9 2010, 07:30 AM']Another couple of good starter books here.

[url="http://www.neiltarlton.com/"]http://www.neiltarlton.com/[/url][/quote]

Thanks Bilbo, great. I'll try those.

[endorka]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='919245' date='Aug 9 2010, 07:30 AM']Another couple of good starter books here.

[url="http://www.neiltarlton.com/"]http://www.neiltarlton.com/[/url][/quote]

How do you find the Sevcik one?

Jennifer

[Bilbo]

[quote name='endorka' post='919407' date='Aug 9 2010, 11:13 AM']How do you find the Sevcik one?

Jennifer[/quote]

I like it although it is early days and, as it is the first book dedicated to bowing I have bought, I have no comparisons. I like the way it is laid out and the way it explains all of the little subtleties that you may otherwise miss such as the imprtance of being able to utilise the different areas of the bow. It is working for me and I am seeing a distinct improvement (may just be because I am practicing anyway but I do feel that the book is helping).

[Owen]

I do realise that this could be a contentious statement, but you could use 1 finger per semitone. It is probably easier to do this if you are kicked off by a teacher who espouses that technique. The thumb placement is key. There can be an element of pivot on the thumb.

[fatback]

[quote name='owen' post='921920' date='Aug 11 2010, 07:45 PM']I do realise that this could be a contentious statement, but you could use 1 finger per semitone. It is probably easier to do this if you are kicked off by a teacher who espouses that technique. The thumb placement is key. There can be an element of pivot on the thumb.[/quote]

On fretless bg I use the 4 fingers and thumb pivot thing, but I can only see that working on db below A on the E maybe. Small hands, me.

I'm quite happy to do the simandl, but it was being told to use the nanny??? one that confused me.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='owen' post='921920' date='Aug 11 2010, 07:45 PM']I do realise that this could be a contentious statement, but you could use 1 finger per semitone. It is probably easier to do this if you are kicked off by a teacher who espouses that technique. The thumb placement is key. There can be an element of pivot on the thumb.[/quote]

I'm still not sure why I'm supposed to not use my third finger. I'm not doing it, just in case it's important to not do it, but I can't figure out why yet.

Sure at the very largest stretches it makes more sense to just span three notes, but if I can span four comfortably then why not use my third finger?

[Doddy]

[quote name='owen' post='921920' date='Aug 11 2010, 07:45 PM']I do realise that this could be a contentious statement, but you could use 1 finger per semitone. It is probably easier to do this if you are kicked off by a teacher who espouses that technique. The thumb placement is key. There can be an element of pivot on the thumb.[/quote]

You totally could do that,in fact I sometimes do from about third or fourth position upwards.One of the main problems though is that it's a
big stretch in the lower positions to use one finger per semitone,which could result in injuring the hand. Also,the ring and little fingers
are weaker than the first two(and share a tendon) so by using the two together it gives you more strength to play the note.

[endorka]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='922194' date='Aug 12 2010, 12:09 AM']I'm still not sure why I'm supposed to not use my third finger. I'm not doing it, just in case it's important to not do it, but I can't figure out why yet.[/quote]

The Simandl method has been in use for at least 100 years (?), so I'm guessing the reason for its success is that it works most of the time for most people, is an excellent technique for developing good intonation, and will make you less prone to hand/wrist stress & injuries.

You do use the third finger though, usually when you move into whatever position it is that has you playing F, F#, G on the G string - the third finger is used for the G, instead of the fourth.

That's not to say that just because it is traditional it should be always used... if you can find a better way then that's great. My double bass tutor uses 1 finger per semitone in all positions, and it works really well for him, but in my experience the finger stretches required for this are beyond most people.

Jennifer

[OutToPlayJazz]

The basic physics of the matter is that in the lower positions, the left hand only spans one tone... A semitone between fingers one and two & another semitone between fingers two and four. If you look at your hand as you play, there should be a greater distance between the first and second fingers. This will give you the tuning stability in the lower positions.

The compact hand shape allows for more dexterity and speed when playing, too. The third finger never really comes into play on it's own until you reach 5th position (1st finger on the G string at F & F#) and higher, especially when the hand changes shape for thumb position, for example.

This technique also works really well on electric bass. It's how I teach all of my students to play as well.

Rich

[Cat Burrito]

This thread is interesting & certainly reveals my unschooled technique. I use my third finger supported by the first two a bit & have been having a few issues around intonation. Admittedly more when I let my practice slip but I will try adapting what has been said here. Cheers

[Bilbo]

No expert but I can see that trying to use four fingers in half position would leave you vulnerable to intonation problems over an evening due to fatigue - as your hand tired, over the evening or through a particularly long or fast tune, you would inevitably find the additional stretch that little bit harder to maintain and the notes would consequently slip out of tune. I find the Simandl easier on the hands (maybe if I had started this when my hands were still growing, I may have stood a chance - as it is they are grateful for the more natural stretch of the three notes)

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='922487' date='Aug 12 2010, 11:11 AM']No expert but I can see that trying to use four fingers in half position would leave you vulnerable to intonation problems over an evening due to fatigue[/quote]


But further up the neck, say around A/Bb on the E string, if you're spanning a whole tone with fingers 1,2 and 4, and say you have to play a repeating triad pattern (as bass players are often required to do) that's going to be a change of position during each one (and a change back again to begin the triad again). Surely this is going to be more tiring than simply spanning three semitones with your hand (if your hand is big enough) and playing the triad without changing position?

I appreciate I'm arguing against accepted wisdom here but it's something I genuinely don't understand the objection to.

[Doddy]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='922561' date='Aug 12 2010, 11:57 AM']But further up the neck, say around A/Bb on the E string, if you're spanning a whole tone with fingers 1,2 and 4, and say you have to play a repeating triad pattern (as bass players are often required to do) that's going to be a change of position during each one (and a change back again to begin the triad again). Surely this is going to be more tiring than simply spanning three semitones with your hand (if your hand is big enough) and playing the triad without changing position?

I appreciate I'm arguing against accepted wisdom here but it's something I genuinely don't understand the objection to.[/quote]

Which is why I said that I sometimes use one finger per semitone from around the third or forth position. For certain lines
further up the neck,where open strings become slightly more impractical,I think that it makes sense to apply a slightly
longer stretch as long as it is still comfortable.In the first couple of positions I will always recommend using the Simandl
1,2,4 hand position though.I pretty much do the same thing on electric bass too.

[velvetkevorkian]

There is the [url="http://www.asodb.com/index.php/simandl-plusr"]Simandl Plus[/url] method which essentially suggests you can switch between 'open' and 'closed' hand positions (i.e. 1234 and 124 fingerings) depending on the line to be played and where you can play it on the instrument.

[fatback]

[quote name='velvetkevorkian' post='922702' date='Aug 12 2010, 01:32 PM']There is the [url="http://www.asodb.com/index.php/simandl-plusr"]Simandl Plus[/url] method which essentially suggests you can switch between 'open' and 'closed' hand positions (i.e. 1234 and 124 fingerings) depending on the line to be played and where you can play it on the instrument.[/quote]

Useful in that it codifies a lot of the common sense tactics that most of us probably use anyway on bg, plus some I for one hadn't thought of.

But dear oh dear, registering Simandl-plus as a trademark?

[stewartmusic]

Hey, came across this and thought I could put my 2 pennies in.

The reason I've been told that "we" (majority of players) use fingers 1-2-4 in the lower 1/2 upwards positions is because our 3rd finger is the weakest out of the four on the hand, this is because it shares a tendon with your 2nd finger therefore restricting the movement as well as endurance (although im sure people have trained their 3rd fingers to cope with a bit more)

With the methods etc I, like many, have been trained through simandl however as I have progressed I've been messing about with extensions and pivots. Mainly around the D#-F# (not in one stretch but outwith one semitone) say you were playing a run of D#,F#,E,F on the G string, I would use 1st finger for the D#, extend my 4th finger for the F# then retract the 4th finger so that it return to "normal" positions. You could also play the same run with a pivot keeping your thumb in the same position but making a definite shift with your hand.

One thing that I would say above all is to get to grips with a "mechanical" type shifiting so that you learn your fingerboard as much as possible and only once you have learn that move on to finding ways to make those pesky semi-tone shifts easier to run around. After all before these "new" methods came around people seemed comfortable enough with nice easy simple shifts:)

didn't think that this would turn into quite an essay but hope it helps

Dara

[Owen]

The whole 1234 thing is pretty do-able. The only time I struggled through years of doing classical stuff is one of the Enigma Variations (I forget which one, but it was the one which was kind of mirroring the ocean going liner engine) which was a much repeated slurred F to G sharp on the E string (I did it with 1 to 4 without shifting because otherwise there would have been a kind of sickly lurch!). Other than that it has never been an issue. My hands are fairly large, but not bonkersly so.

I do not do as much classical stuff these days and will lapse into 1+4 for octaves (that is just laziness) but my intonation has never been an issue, or one for my pupils.