Converting fretted to fretless

[Faithless]

So, I've got a 'spare' [i]fretted [/i]5string Ibanez GSR, and I'm thinking of giving it to luthier to make it [i]lined [/i]fretless.

It looks so..:




Thing is, I know almost nothing about the finer points of stuff like that.

My Ibby has rosewood fingerboard - I've heard that it's not the best wood for fretless in terms of sustain and such.. (should be Ebony??)


What else should be done in that conversion process, not to mention ripping out frets? Making fingerboard [i]lined[/i]?



And... What could I expect (worst/best) after conversion (bad sustain/playability, such?)?

P.S. there's other story, but.. My bass was strung B to G, and, I'm thinking of stringing it E to C. Any problems here?


All comments are welcome

Faith

Edited January 8, 2010 by Faithless

[henry norton]

[quote name='Faithless' post='659997' date='Nov 20 2009, 12:34 PM']So, I've got a 'spare' [i]fretted [/i]5string Ibanez GSR, and I'm thinking of giving it to luthier to make it [i]lined [/i]fretless.

It looks so..:




Thing is, I know almost nothing about the finer points of stuff like that.

My Ibby has rosewood fingerboard - I've heard that it's not the best wood for fretless in terms of sustain and such.. (should be Ebony??)


What else should be done in that conversion process, not to mention ripping out frets? Making fingerboard [i]lined[/i]?



And... What could I expect (worst/best) after conversion (bad sustain/playability, such?)?

P.S. there's other story, but.. My bass was strung B to G, and, I'm thinking of stringing it E to C. Any problems here?


All comments are welcome

Faith[/quote]

Defretting your bass shouldn't cause any problems if it's done properly. You will have to decide what colour of wood you'd like in the fret slots; most people will go for something like maple which will look rather like the frets that have been removed, or you could go for a darker wood like walnut which will still give you a line but it'll be much harder to spot from a distance. Then you need to decide if you want it coated with epoxy or polyester lacquer or left plain. Plain fretless boards in rosewood work absolutely fine and will only suffer wear and tear after relatively long use with round wound strings. A coating will give it a brighter sound (more Jaco jazz and less double bass growl), and looks pretty cool too, but it works either way. Of course ripping the frets out will affect the sound - it'll sound like a fretless! 'Sustain' is a much misused, much misunderstood term. If your bass sounds OK now it should sound fine defretted, so long as it's been done properly. Ebony is a good fretless wood as it's a bit harder than rosewood it sounds a bit brighter and won't wear so fast. It has a nice silky feel when it's unfinished but it'll probably cost you more than the bass did to have an ebony board grafted on, especially galling if you decide you don't like fretless after all.

One thing you need to think about is how much money you want to throw at your bass - if you chuck a hundred quid at it for a defret it won't be worth a hundred quid more....

Good luck and let us know how you get on. HN

Oh, a conversion to high C will cost you a new nut, a bridge adjustment (height & intonation) and possibly a truss rod tweak.

Edited November 20, 2009 by henry norton

[Happy Jack]

Alternatively, do what I'm doing right now ... buy a fretless neck for your bass and keep the original unchanged in case you want to go back to it. Assuming it's a bolt-on neck, of course.

I'm having a Might Mite neck with an Ebanol fretboard fitted to my Lakland Duck Dunn just now. It's an entirely reversible mod and will do no damage at all to the Lakland.

The neck cost me £73 (incl. delivery) from the US, new, though not from Might Mite direct. It arrived with a very nice oiled finish, ready to fit. I already had a spare set of tuners. The only real craftsman work involved is in shaving the heel of the neck down from 2 1/2" to 2 3/8" to fit the neck pocket, but even that can be turned to advantage because I'll end up with a really tight fit.

I suppose a shim might be needed.

By the time it's all sorted, the whole project will have cost me less than £200 and instead of damaging the resale value of the bass, I'll have enhanced it.

[Faithless]

Thanks, guys that was really helpful



Anymore about it, chaps?


Faith

[geoffbyrne]

...........and you'll need to cut the nut slots lower..............

G.

[bh2]

I had mine stoned down to the tangs...

[Happy Jack]

You missed one ...

[bh2]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='661457' date='Nov 22 2009, 01:08 AM']You missed one ...[/quote]

Heh... it fell out at a gig!

[henry norton]

Respect due to BH2 but I wouldn't have the frets stoned down - it's probably not much slower in actual working hours to whip them out and fill the slots - this way you won't get uneven wear, sharp ends sticking out the sides and empty slots when they (inevitably) fall out! That is unless you want the whole lot encased in 3mm of epoxy....

[bh2]

[quote name='henry norton' post='661739' date='Nov 22 2009, 02:02 PM']Respect due to BH2 but I wouldn't have the frets stoned down - it's probably not much slower in actual working hours to whip them out and fill the slots - this way you won't get uneven wear, sharp ends sticking out the sides and empty slots when they (inevitably) fall out! That is unless you want the whole lot encased in 3mm of epoxy....[/quote]

yes... I'm thinking of wood shims or glueing in the tangs. Still a wip.

[danny-79]

Did a de-fretting job on an Aria that i brought at a cheep price for the purpose of defretting it, wasnt a to bad a job to do, just removed the frets an filled the gaps with resin and sanded it all flush, re cut the nut an (not in the picture) restrung it with a set of flat wounds , it sounds and plays great. [attachment=36870:aria_2_001.JPG]

[dannybuoy]

Unless you're really attached to the Ibby, I would just sell it and buy a fretless!

[Faithless]

[quote name='dannybuoy' post='662253' date='Nov 23 2009, 01:20 AM']Unless you're really attached to the Ibby, I would just sell it and buy a fretless![/quote]


That's also an option

There's a variant, to buy fretless Harley Benton, buuut, it's drawback (for me) is that it is not lined.

here it is:

[url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/prod_bdb_AR_163614.html?image=1"]http://www.thomann.de/gb/prod_bdb_AR_163614.html?image=1[/url]

So, [b]big question[/b] here, guys - is it possible/hard to make it [i]lined[/i]?


Faithless

[henry norton]

[quote name='Faithless' post='662645' date='Nov 23 2009, 02:39 PM']That's also an option

There's a variant, to buy fretless Harley Benton, buuut, it's drawback (for me) is that it is not lined.

here it is:

[url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/prod_bdb_AR_163614.html?image=1"]http://www.thomann.de/gb/prod_bdb_AR_163614.html?image=1[/url]

So, [b]big question[/b] here, guys - is it possible/hard to make it [i]lined[/i]?


Faithless[/quote]

It is easier to defret a bass and fill the slots with light wood than it is to line and dot a neck that's already fretless. You could just get it marked along the edge (if it isn't already), which just involves drilling a few tiny holes whereas lining a board means accurately measuring, marking and cutting fret slots, then filling them with slivers of wood as you'd do with a defretted bass. Isn't there a fretless variant of your Ibanez? Maybe a fretless owner would want to swap...

[Bloodaxe]

[quote name='henry norton' post='662662' date='Nov 23 2009, 01:54 PM']It is easier to defret a bass and fill the slots with light wood than it is to line and dot a neck that's already fretless. You could just get it marked along the edge (if it isn't already), which just involves drilling a few tiny holes whereas lining a board means accurately measuring, marking and cutting fret slots, then filling them with slivers of wood as you'd do with a defretted bass. Isn't there a fretless variant of your Ibanez? Maybe a fretless owner would want to swap...[/quote]


Greetings,

The full thread on my defret experience is here: [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=5094&hl=aria"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=5094&hl=aria[/url] & shows what I chose to do in respect of a lined board.

I've been taking it to local jams & gigging it for about 6 months now & a few things have become evident...

1: The rosewood board is starting to tramline - I use roundwounds & I like to bend 'em. I phoned the Bass Gallery to get their advice & to enqquire about getting an ebony board at some point. Their reply: New fingerboard will cost around £300, but don't worry about tramlining too much as it's part of the bedding-in process & can be taken out with a re-shoot when it gets too much.

I'm inclined to agree with the "bedding in" statement, as it seems to me that I'm now definitely taking a fretless to the gig - it's starting to sing & growl and do all that good stuff (admittedly part of this is that I've learned how to do it!).

2: Lines. Don't bother, just fill 'em in. When was the last time you actually looked at the frets while you were playing? I mean square on, direclty at 'em? Come On, be honest now.

Exactly. You probably haven't for ages - I haven't. What I DO look at is the edge of the board - the dots & the fret ends. This is where markers are invaluable until your ear is good enough to know when you're out (I doubt mine ever will be, plus there's always a gig when you can't hear yourself properly & you end up playing in Braille!). I've "enhanced" mine with Tippex (coz I had some) & varnished it in. A strong contrast is useful as stage lighting can vary.

3: Beware! It can take over your life!

Have fun with it

Pete.

[henry norton]

[quote name='Bloodaxe' post='667970' date='Nov 28 2009, 05:32 AM']Greetings,

The full thread on my defret experience is here: [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=5094&hl=aria"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=5094&hl=aria[/url] & shows what I chose to do in respect of a lined board.

I've been taking it to local jams & gigging it for about 6 months now & a few things have become evident...

1: The rosewood board is starting to tramline - I use roundwounds & I like to bend 'em. I phoned the Bass Gallery to get their advice & to enqquire about getting an ebony board at some point. Their reply: New fingerboard will cost around £300, but don't worry about tramlining too much as it's part of the bedding-in process & can be taken out with a re-shoot when it gets too much.

I'm inclined to agree with the "bedding in" statement, as it seems to me that I'm now definitely taking a fretless to the gig - it's starting to sing & growl and do all that good stuff (admittedly part of this is that I've learned how to do it!).

2: Lines. Don't bother, just fill 'em in. When was the last time you actually looked at the frets while you were playing? I mean square on, direclty at 'em? Come On, be honest now.

Exactly. You probably haven't for ages - I haven't. What I DO look at is the edge of the board - the dots & the fret ends. This is where markers are invaluable until your ear is good enough to know when you're out (I doubt mine ever will be, plus there's always a gig when you can't hear yourself properly & you end up playing in Braille!). I've "enhanced" mine with Tippex (coz I had some) & varnished it in. A strong contrast is useful as stage lighting can vary.

3: Beware! It can take over your life!

Have fun with it

Pete.[/quote]
My ebony board did the same thing and after some initial worries my Elites were scratching it to shreds I realised they're kind of polishing little lines onto the surface rather than digging trenches - if you run your fingernail down them it should feel pretty smooth, almost like they're not there.

300 quid for a new board though I'd do it for 250.....

Nice job on the bass BTW - lovely workshop too I might add, or do you work for Catford Timber????

Edited November 28, 2009 by henry norton

[Paul_C]

I've just taken the frets and nut out of my Yamaha SBV500 to convert it to fretless, I'll take a few snaps and show how it went.

[Paul_C]

oops!

having taken some before and after snaps, I promptly deleted them

so all I have for you are these :





sounds great though !

[Faithless]

Hey, guys, I'm giving my Ibby to luthier tommorow, most probably!

I was just curious about [i]fretless [/i]bass setup - how do you do yours?

I mean, there's a great Jerzy Drozd's set-up guide here, on Basschat, but, he concentrates on fretted basses, so it won't be much of a help to me..

Share your thoughts on fretless setups, chaps!

Cheers,
Faith.

[Faithless]

I've finally gave my Ibby to luthier..

It seems, that it's neck has a 'injury', that probably came from factory (well, at last, it already was, when I bought it from shop..), but he'll try to fix it.

If no, we'll probably put a new neck.


Anyway, today I was in the shop, looking for nylon strings. They were there, but I've faced a problem.

As I've mentioned before, I want to string my Ibby from E to C.

Both string sets, that were available in shop, were either 4-string set (E-G), or 5-string (B-G), so, at the moment, I have an 'ordinary' 4string set, and [i]don't even have an idea[/i], where to get nylon C string...

Any ideas, how could I solve this?

Just to mind you, I'm living in Lithuania, so, I can't order a 'custom' string from Newtone, or whatever like that

Or, maybe, I should 'coat' a flatwound string with nylon?

[Faithless]

Anyone,chaps?..

[quote name='Faithless' post='694953' date='Dec 28 2009, 07:10 PM']I've finally gave my Ibby to luthier..

It seems, that it's neck has a 'injury', that probably came from factory (well, at last, it already was, when I bought it from shop..), but he'll try to fix it.

If no, we'll probably put a new neck.


Anyway, today I was in the shop, looking for nylon strings. They were there, but I've faced a problem.

As I've mentioned before, I want to string my Ibby from E to C.

Both string sets, that were available in shop, were either 4-string set (E-G), or 5-string (B-G), so, at the moment, I have an 'ordinary' 4string set, and [i]don't even have an idea[/i], where to get nylon C string...

Any ideas, how could I solve this?

Just to mind you, I'm living in Lithuania, so, I can't order a 'custom' string from Newtone, or whatever like that

Or, maybe, I should 'coat' a flatwound string with nylon? [/quote]

Edited December 29, 2009 by Faithless

[Faithless]

Oh, I'm almost finished with my fretless - collected it yesterday from luthier - he seemed to do 'ok' with neck - made fretlines, adjusted it a bit, and fixed sharp 'dots' on fretboard and neck.


Today I've put a regular 4string black nylons set on it, but, I don't have a C string yet.. It's a shame, cuz bass now looks sooo beauty, and I want to play it


Sadly, I don't have an idea, where to get a damn string, except buying a whole new set of nylons, and put so called G string (0.50 diameter) into C string's 'place'..

Any suggestions?


I've tried classical guitar's strings - they're too short for bass, violin strings also doesn't seem to be an option..

I'm lost,guys, help me

[Dom in Dorset]

Even if you could get classical guitar strings long enough they won't work on an electric bass, the black nylon bass strings (picato etc) are steel strings with a black nylon coating.

Edited January 1, 2010 by Dom in Somerset

[Bloodaxe]

[quote name='Faithless' post='698099' date='Jan 1 2010, 04:53 PM']Oh, I'm almost finished with my fretless - collected it yesterday from luthier - he seemed to do 'ok' with neck - made fretlines, adjusted it a bit, and fixed sharp 'dots' on fretboard and neck.


Today I've put a regular 4string black nylons set on it, but, I don't have a C string yet.. It's a shame, cuz bass now looks sooo beauty, and I want to play it


Sadly, I don't have an idea, where to get a damn string, except buying a whole new set of nylons, and put so called G string (0.50 diameter) into C string's 'place'..

Any suggestions?


I've tried classical guitar's strings - they're too short for bass, violin strings also doesn't seem to be an option..

I'm lost,guys, help me [/quote]

Greetings,

Had a look on EBay & all that came up were [url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RotoSound-TRU-BASS-88-Black-Nylon-Flatwound-5-Strings_W0QQitemZ390136297119QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Guitar_Accessories?hash=item5ad5ef769f"]these[/url] which are 1) for a low B, and 2) very expensive.

I'd caution against using a G string as a subsitute high C - I tried it on an Aria "Magna" 5-string & the neck didn't like it one bit, thankfully the twist went away when I put it back to normal tuning.

All I can suggest is to get a high-C set of roundwounds (or a 6-string set) & crack on with it. You will get "tramlining", but that's just part of the process - after all frets wear down too, don't they?

Pete.

[Dom in Dorset]

[url="http://www.stringsdirect.co.uk/products/2458-rotosound_jazz_bass_flatwound_high_c"]http://www.stringsdirect.co.uk/products/24...latwound_high_c[/url]