Beedster Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 (edited) Hi Folks I tend to play my maple board Precision for pleasure, either unplugged or at quite low volume, and I love what to my ears is the lovely natural and uprightly tone. However, I've recently started gigging it and find that when I push the volume the tone becomes quite thumpy and bass heavy, which is of course a great tone but doesn't seem to be a true expression of the natural tone of the instrument. OK, I can EQ it back to something like what I believe is it's natural tone, but I think the original '77 Fender PUP is simply not picking up all the tones/harmonics that are available, or is biasing them back to lows/low mids and thumpiness. I'm playing TI flats which obviously aren't the most harmonic rich strings but they do emulate the swell and slap of an upright bass well, so I want to stick with them. So, I'm looking to put in a new PUP, or at least try one to see how close I can get to the unplugged tone. I was originally tempted to go for an SPB-3 which has quite a prominent top end but IIRC also has a very high output which might not be exaclty the thing. I guess I'm loking for something that has a similar level of output as the original but provides far more tonal range? Should I be looking at a piezo bridge, and if so, anyone know if one that I can drop into an old Fender without too much hassle/modification/cost? All advice/experience/opinion gratefully received Chris Edited November 16, 2009 by Beedster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Mr. Beedster... As it 'appens, I've spent the best part of a year on this very quest.. tearing my hair out, and that. It started with a great (IMO) tone, that recorded well but lost all it's detail in a live situation. Rounds were fine, but that wasn't the sound I was looking for. Is the sound you want present if you listen to your bass via a DI and headphones? It was for me, and the answer was a combination of: - Stacked cabs closer to ear level (for obvious reasons) - Swapping out the rosewood neck for ebony (probably not relevant in your case, I know the hard, smooth ebony really makes a difference) - Raven Labs PBR-1 onboard pre (this has made a massive difference - all that detail that's usually lost before the signal hits the amp is retained, and actually improved) I tried swapping out the pickup for a Wizard Thumper, and the active Duncan I nabbed from your good self, but it didn't happen. Too thick for fretless, I reckon. The stock P pup won in the end. Now I can play over the 17th/18th fret neck-of-the-woods and it sounds fat, rich and woody. A few months ago, I actually had to stop myself routing the body out for a Ghost piezo system. Phew... lucky escape, there. Hope some of this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted November 16, 2009 Author Share Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='wateroftyne' post='655813' date='Nov 16 2009, 11:17 AM']Mr. Beedster... As it 'appens, I've spent the best part of a year on this very quest.. tearing my hair out, and that. It started with a great (IMO) tone, that recorded well but lost all it's detail in a live situation. Rounds were fine, but that wasn't the sound I was looking for. Is the sound you want present if you listen to your bass via a DI and headphones? It was for me, and the answer was a combination of: - Stacked cabs closer to ear level (for obvious reasons) - Swapping out the rosewood neck for ebony (probably not relevant in your case, I know the hard, smooth ebony really makes a difference) - Raven Labs PBR-1 onboard pre (this has made a massive difference - all that detail that's usually lost before the signal hits the amp is retained, and actually improved) I tried swapping out the pickup for a Wizard Thumper, and the active Duncan I nabbed from your good self, but it didn't happen. Too thick for fretless, I reckon. The stock P pup won in the end. Now I can play over the 17th/18th fret neck-of-the-woods and it sounds fat, rich and woody. A few months ago, I actually had to stop myself routing the body out for a Ghost piezo system. Phew... lucky escape, there. Hope some of this helps.[/quote] Hey Michael Thanks very much, that's very very useful. Agreed on the board material, the same bass & strings with a rosewood Precision neck sound nothing like an upright, whilst the maple has that lovely tone, and yes, using your descriptor above, the tone I'm after is actually quite thin. However, this thin tone becomes distinctly thicker when amplified. Glad you've sorted the issue, but following your recent PM I tracked down Raven Labs and they're no longer in production, which is a shame. TBH I don't think I am getting the tone I want DI'd, that is, I think when I play at low level I can still hear enough of the acoustic tone for it to retain its uprightyness to my ear, whilst when the electrics take over completely this is lost. When I push/pull the EQ it doesn't sound anything like as good as I know it could (you know how it sounds when you push a tone that isn't really sufficiently present in the original signal?). I'm wondering, on the basis of what you've said above re an active circuit between PUP and pre, whether I should take off the maple neck and TIs, put both on my Jazz, which has a J-Retro, and see how close I can get to the sound I want with that combination, or at least, just how close the active circuit gets me to the tone I want given the natural tone of the bass configured that way? I'll give it some though. Thanks again mate Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Burrito Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Chris - try rotosound trubass nylon strings. A fair bit cheaper than mucking about with pickups & the most double bass sounding tone you'll ever get on a bass guitar. If you play with fingers they really are very upright-y. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted November 16, 2009 Author Share Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='BurritoBass' post='655842' date='Nov 16 2009, 11:42 AM']Chris - try rotosound trubass nylon strings. A fair bit cheaper than mucking about with pickups & the most double bass sounding tone you'll ever get on a bass guitar. If you play with fingers they really are very upright-y.[/quote] Hiya mate Fair point, but trust me, I've tried every flatwound/nylon string out there, and just didn't like the Rotos, they seemed far less alive than the TIs and more thumpy when amplified. I guess all these things are about interactions, and I find that on this specific bass TIs are the strings that bring out the tone I need. Cheers anyway BB Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 How about getting the real thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bass Doc Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Nothing sounds like an upright as good as an upright. That said, the closest I can get is with a bridge pickup (on a relatively bassy setting) as this retains some of the definition a lot of upright players seem to achieve. You wouldn't want to cut into your Precision to get that result but trying the neck on a Jazz might just prove something one way or another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry norton Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='Beedster' post='655794' date='Nov 16 2009, 12:01 PM']Hi Folks I tend to play my maple board Precision for pleasure, either unplugged or at quite low volume, and I love what to my ears is the lovely natural and uprightly tone. However, I've recently started gigging it and find that when I push the volume the tone becomes quite thumpy and bass heavy, which is of course a great tone but doesn't seem to be a true expression of the natural tone of the instrument. OK, I can EQ it back to something like what I believe is it's natural tone, but I think the original '77 Fender PUP is simply not picking up all the tones/harmonics that are available, or is biasing them back to lows/low mids and thumpiness. I'm playing TI flats which obviously aren't the most harmonic rich strings but they do emulate the swell and slap of an upright bass well, so I want to stick with them. So, I'm looking to put in a new PUP, or at least try one to see how close I can get to the unplugged tone. I was originally tempted to go for an SPB-3 which has quite a prominent top end but IIRC also has a very high output which might not be exaclty the thing. I guess I'm loking for something that has a similar level of output as the original but provides far more tonal range? Should I be looking at a piezo bridge, and if so, anyone know if one that I can drop into an old Fender without too much hassle/modification/cost? All advice/experience/opinion gratefully received Chris[/quote] I know just what you mean. This is probably not much use to you but I found my unfinished ebony board gives a much clearer, punchier sound than my (epoxied) maple board did, acoustically and amplified. I ended up adding a Jazz to the bridge and feed a bit into the mix with my DiMarzio (again, in my opinion, a clearer, punchier sound compared to the original Fender). Used with rounds (again, not much use to you), and played near the neck end it can sound very double bassy if I hit the notes just right. Having said that you are trying to get a 'HiFi, pure string' sound out of a pickup that's designed to be anything but, so maybe a seperate piezo system could be the way to go. I personally never got on too well with the Jazz fretless - it never had the warmth and richness of a precision but if you've got one it's got to be worth a try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul_C Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 whilst this isn't entirely answering your question, it might be of some help - I defretted a Washburn AB10 and had fitted TI Flats to it, and it had a great sound but nothing like a double bass sound - my solution, which got amusingly close, was to stick a wad of kitchen towel up against the bridge (I'd tried various types of foam, but none really worked) which shortened the sustain enough to get the effect I was after - this also tweaked the tone slightly, so might be worth a try Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted November 16, 2009 Author Share Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='chris_b' post='655869' date='Nov 16 2009, 12:00 PM']How about getting the real thing?[/quote] I'm thinking about it. I tried two earlier this year, a Dean Pace and a Stagg, and didn't really get on with either. I subsequently looked for a full length EUB but the trail went dry and I haven't really followed up. Money is probably the main issue [quote name='The Bass Doc' post='655877' date='Nov 16 2009, 12:21 PM']Nothing sounds like an upright as good as an upright. That said, the closest I can get is with a bridge pickup (on a relatively bassy setting) as this retains some of the definition a lot of upright players seem to achieve. You wouldn't want to cut into your Precision to get that result but trying the neck on a Jazz might just prove something one way or another.[/quote] Cheers Howard, I'm going to swap necks and strings tomorrow and see what I get with a neck PUP and J-Retro [quote name='henry norton' post='656155' date='Nov 16 2009, 05:34 PM']I know just what you mean. This is probably not much use to you but I found my unfinished ebony board gives a much clearer, punchier sound than my (epoxied) maple board did, acoustically and amplified. I ended up adding a Jazz to the bridge and feed a bit into the mix with my DiMarzio (again, in my opinion, a clearer, punchier sound compared to the original Fender). Used with rounds (again, not much use to you), and played near the neck end it can sound very double bassy if I hit the notes just right. Having said that you are trying to get a 'HiFi, pure string' sound out of a pickup that's designed to be anything but, so maybe a seperate piezo system could be the way to go. I personally never got on too well with the Jazz fretless - it never had the warmth and richness of a precision but if you've got one it's got to be worth a try.[/quote] Oh god, so it's a PJ with an ebony board then. About the only combination I haven't got [quote name='Paul_C' post='656165' date='Nov 16 2009, 05:48 PM']whilst this isn't entirely answering your question, it might be of some help - I defretted a Washburn AB10 and had fitted TI Flats to it, and it had a great sound but nothing like a double bass sound - my solution, which got amusingly close, was to stick a wad of kitchen towel up against the bridge (I'd tried various types of foam, but none really worked) which shortened the sustain enough to get the effect I was after - this also tweaked the tone slightly, so might be worth a try[/quote] Love it Paul. thanks, anything's worth a go, although at present I think my main issue is lack of top end tonally. BTW are we talking Fender Kitchen Towel, or will aftermarket do? C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='Beedster' post='656211' date='Nov 16 2009, 06:36 PM']I'm thinking about it. I tried two earlier this year, a Dean Pace and a Stagg, and didn't really get on with either. I subsequently looked for a full length EUB but the trail went dry and I haven't really followed up. Money is probably the main issue [/quote] And then there's the endless quest to amplify it to your satisfaction... if you're going go through that anyway, might as well do it with something 1/4 the size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted November 16, 2009 Author Share Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='wateroftyne' post='656216' date='Nov 16 2009, 06:39 PM']And then there's the endless quest to amplify it to your satisfaction... if you're going go through that anyway, might as well do it with something 1/4 the size. [/quote] Exactly and exactly. Why make life any harder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul_C Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='Beedster' post='656211' date='Nov 16 2009, 06:36 PM']Love it Paul. thanks, anything's worth a go, although at present I think my main issue is lack of top end tonally. BTW are we talking Fender Kitchen Towel, or will aftermarket do? C[/quote] you might find this hard to believe, but it's Tesco's own brand cheap stuff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7string Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Have you tried plucking the strings at the last fret. This changes the sound quite a bit and could be what you're looking for. I have a piezos in the bridge of my ACG basses and I like them a lot. So much that I've found myself keeping them switched on all the time. Alan at ACG is now using piezos more and more, so he might be able to point you in the right direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted November 17, 2009 Author Share Posted November 17, 2009 [quote name='7string' post='656614' date='Nov 17 2009, 12:59 AM']Have you tried plucking the strings at the last fret. This changes the sound quite a bit and could be what you're looking for.[/quote] Hi dude, yep, as I said, it sounds bang on unplugged, it's definitely what's happening at and after the PUP that's the problem. Piezzo is an option but one I think I'd rather not resort to just yet Cheers Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mottlefeeder Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 One of the things that can make an EUB sound more DB-like is to raise the action. As a non-cost option, it might be worth trying on your P. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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