Musky Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='563512' date='Aug 8 2009, 02:58 PM']Depends on the floor, a flexible one will screw your sound.[/quote] Very true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.T Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='563523' date='Aug 8 2009, 03:18 PM']Tweeter above, as tweeters have narrower dispersion than woofers.[/quote] Forgive my ignorance here.... I thought you said "The wider the source, the narrower the dispertion pattern" ???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZMech Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='563523' date='Aug 8 2009, 03:18 PM']Yes, though if the front of said box isn't a solid surface you'll lose coupling output above the frequency where the elevation is equal to 1/4 wavelength. With a 3 foot lift that's about 100 Hz. However, 'boom' also occurs in the vicinity of 100-180 Hz, so if you've got a boomy room elevating the cab can help tame it.[/quote] Just to check, coupling output is when the bass makes the floor (or the box it's on) vibrate, causing the floor to generate sound, yes? So raising the amp removes boominess, but surely you can do the same thing with a decent EQ? Or is raising it just an alternative? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.T Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 [quote name='bassman2790' post='563495' date='Aug 8 2009, 02:31 PM']While I believe that what Bill is saying to be 100% true and that one of Alex's Compacts could probably knock my 4x10 into the middle of next week in terms of sound quality and dispersion, ................it's also about image, otherwise we'd all wear the same things on stage because it was the most practical or efficient clothing for performing in.[/quote] 1). Sound quality is purely subjective. 2). Does that mean the leopard print spandex jumpsuit is a no-no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MoJo Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 [quote name='Mr.T' post='563531' date='Aug 8 2009, 03:45 PM']1). Sound quality is purely subjective. 2). Does that mean the leopard print spandex jumpsuit is a no-no?[/quote] 1. Absolutely correct 2. When's your next gig...I gotta see that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.T Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 [quote name='bassman2790' post='563533' date='Aug 8 2009, 03:51 PM']2. When's your next gig...I gotta see that [/quote] It would leave you emotionally scarred! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 [quote name='bassman2790' post='563495' date='Aug 8 2009, 02:31 PM']Sometimes what you take on stage with you isn't all about the sound, it's also about image,[/quote] That's what numerous cab manufacturers have been relying on for years. Surely the crowd that the image conscious player is trying to impress won't have a scooby doo what's behind the speaker cloth? - and will they give a toss? - Although they might be looking for the manufacturer's name to make sure that they're listening to a serious bass player Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 [quote name='Mr.T' post='563526' date='Aug 8 2009, 10:29 AM']Forgive my ignorance here.... I thought you said "The wider the source, the narrower the dispertion pattern" ????[/quote]You must also consider the frequency in question. Dispersion is not a static figure, it varies with frequency as well as the size of the radiating source. But your question brings up a good point, that being why high frequency sources are smaller than low frequency sources. One of those reasons is dispersion. The higher the frequency the smaller the source must be or dispersion will be unusably narrow, as in using eighteens for guitar. [quote]coupling output is when the bass makes the floor (or the box it's on) vibrate, causing the floor to generate sound, yes?[/quote]No. Boundary Coupling is when the source is close enough to a boundary to reduce the pi radian size of the space being energized, as in free-space, half-space, quarter- and eighth-space. I wish there was a simple non-technical way to explain it, but there isn't. When a nearby surface sympathetically vibrates it does generate sound, but that's a different scenario entirely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 (edited) [quote]....Help with DIY 4x10 needed, i'm getting confused....[/quote] Hi Rich, Hope we cleared that up for you! Edited August 8, 2009 by chris_b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.T Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='563548' date='Aug 8 2009, 04:15 PM']You must also consider the frequency in question. Dispersion is not a static figure, it varies with frequency as well as the size of the radiating source. But your question brings up a good point, that being why high frequency sources are smaller than low frequency sources. One of those reasons is dispersion. The higher the frequency the smaller the source must be or dispersion will be unusably narrow, as in using eighteens for guitar.[/quote] So, It sounds like we are back to a rig with different size drivers for different frequencies... Although a single size driver system would be easier to set-up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 [quote name='chris_b' post='563554' date='Aug 8 2009, 04:21 PM']Hi Rich, Hope we cleared that up for you![/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.T Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 [quote name='Mr.T' post='563556' date='Aug 8 2009, 04:27 PM']So, It sounds like we are back to a rig with different size drivers for different frequencies... Although a single size driver system would be easier to set-up.[/quote] p.s. I should have added.... 'For those of us that want a full range system, with sparkly highs, etc.' (I appreciate the fact that is NOT what we are all chasing). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 A serious one box solution would be a home build Bill Fitzmaurice Omni15 Tall Boy - [url="http://billfitzmaurice.net/Omni15.html"]http://billfitzmaurice.net/Omni15.html[/url] or a BareFaced Big One - [url="http://www.barefacedbass.com/thebigone.html"]http://www.barefacedbass.com/thebigone.html[/url] You will be able to A/B both of these at the South East Bass Bash (presuming Alex brings a Big One) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richrips Posted August 8, 2009 Author Share Posted August 8, 2009 WOW. I never expected this thread to entice this much knowledge and debate! Thanks to everyone involved for facts and opinion both scientific and artistic/practical. I studied engineering at imperial before dropping out to play bass at ICMP so i can really empathise with both sides.... I can see the horizontal dispersion effects would be better for speakers arranged vertically to reduce destructive wave patterns in the horizontal plane as each speaker would have it's own vertical space to project in to without interference from a speaker on the same "floor of the building" as it were. i can also see that a tall narrow cab may be impractical to move around and odd to look at. MORE QUESTIONS...... (i hope these spark as much debate as the last ones!i'll soon have enough knowledge to take on markbass.... In the picture below, the speakers are staggered. Does this diagonal arrangement have any advantage/disadvantage over a purely vertical arrangement? The speakers appear to overlap vertically only very slightly so horizontal dispersion should not be affected (in comparison to a pure vertical arrangement). The diagonal arrangement and slight vertical overlap allows the stack to be shorter (easier to lift amp on to) than a pure vertical and the extra width is more sightly and practical (easier/safer to balance an amp on). Is this correct? Would a diagonally arranged 2x10 on top of a vented 1x12 cab (made possibly using one of bills designs to squeexe every last ounce of low out of it) be a scientifically sound (lol) solution? cheers, rich [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.T Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 (edited) I am going to guess, based on all the knowledge i have acquired of the past week, that they have done that design: a). To save space. and... . Because it looks nice. Edited August 8, 2009 by Mr.T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 It's also the same size as their 810, and a 215 if they made one, so one cab fits all! But how do they sound? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 [quote name='richrips' post='563593' date='Aug 8 2009, 12:39 PM']In the picture below, the speakers are staggered. Does this diagonal arrangement have any advantage/disadvantage over a purely vertical arrangement?[/quote] It's better than horizontally mounted, but not as good as vertical. [quote]Would a diagonally arranged 2x10 on top of a vented 1x12 cab (made possibly using one of bills designs to squeexe every last ounce of low out of it) be a scientifically sound (lol) solution?[/quote]Scientifically speaking never use different size drivers to cover the same bandwidth. Yes, it's seen all the time... for the same reasons that 4x10s are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='563620' date='Aug 8 2009, 06:19 PM']It's better than horizontally mounted, but not as good as vertical. [b]Scientifically speaking never use different size drivers to cover the same bandwidth[/b]. Yes, it's seen all the time... for the same reasons that 4x10s are.[/quote] So I am thinking something like this is how a cabinet should be designed! [url="http://www.meyersound.com/products/concertseries/mts-4a/"]http://www.meyersound.com/products/concertseries/mts-4a/[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 That's the kind of design that can only be made to work really well by using onboard DSP and amplification. It doesn't actually crossover each driver so that none of them overlap but it uses clever trickery to made sure that where output does overlap that its's phase coherent. The performance is reflected in the price! Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 [quote name='alexclaber' post='563638' date='Aug 8 2009, 06:48 PM']That's the kind of design that can only be made to work really well by using onboard DSP and amplification. It doesn't actually crossover each driver so that none of them overlap but it uses clever trickery to made sure that where output does overlap that its's phase coherent. The performance is reflected in the price! Alex[/quote] If drivers of different sizes are in one box and are crossed over correctly, then should they in theory be in a vertical line for best dispersion? I'm thinking a bit more in terms of HiFi cabinets here, but applying the same thought to bass cabinets and 'full range' cabinets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 [quote name='chris_b' post='563619' date='Aug 8 2009, 06:18 PM']It's also the same size as their 810, and a 215 if they made one, so one cab fits all! But how do they sound?[/quote] They sound great, especially in pairs side by side, running different signals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 [quote name='dood' post='563691' date='Aug 8 2009, 02:42 PM']If drivers of different sizes are in one box and are crossed over correctly, then should they in theory be in a vertical line for best dispersion?[/quote]If you really know what you're doing you put the woofers on either side, the midranges just inboard of them, and the tweeters in the middle. With the proper driver spacing and crossover points you can use this arrangement to deliver very uniform dispersion across the full bandwidth of the cab, and you also can stack multiple cabs vertically for longer throw with no degradation in the quality of the sound. This level of technology is commonplace in the PA world, with prices starting around $4000 per cab, and is as far removed from the typical electric bass cab as a Bentley is from a pair of roller skates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='563894' date='Aug 8 2009, 11:58 PM']If you really know what you're doing you put the woofers on either side, the midranges just inboard of them, and the tweeters in the middle. With the proper driver spacing and crossover points you can use this arrangement to deliver very uniform dispersion across the full bandwidth of the cab, and you also can stack multiple cabs vertically for longer throw with no degradation in the quality of the sound. This level of technology is commonplace in the PA world, with prices starting around $4000 per cab, and is as far removed from the typical electric bass cab as a Bentley is from a pair of roller skates.[/quote] Who are these people and where do I find them???!!!!! ;o) I don't want to derail the OP, I seem to have spilled over a bit from my Accugroove thread - but it's making for interesting and helpful reading! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZMech Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 This is one of the most extensive thread hijacks i've ever seen. I'll be impressed if richrips reads and takes in the whole thing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewart Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 (edited) [quote name='dood' post='563897' date='Aug 9 2009, 12:02 AM']Who are these people and where do I find them???!!!!! ;o)[/quote] Take a look at RCF 4PRO 7001 as one example. JBL, EV et al undoubtedly do similar arrayable units. Not really a bass rig though Edit: Here's a link: [url="http://www.rcf.it/web/rcf/products/pro-speaker-systems/4pro-series/4pro-7001a-mh"]RCF 3way arrayable[/url] Edited August 9, 2009 by Stewart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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