Does Size Matter? Is 8” Big Enough?

[Chienmortbb]

Of course I am talking of woofer size on full range tops. Long post so take a rest or tea break at regular intervals. 
 

I started thinking about this a while ago when @Phil Starrand I were working on my 8” extension cab. This was to complement my modified Ashdown After Eight combo. 
 

To cut a long story short, I started thinking about this in earnest when my band borrowed @Phil Starr‘s RCF Art 310As. Now I already had a pair of Whatfedale Pro Titan 12s plus two aging JBL 15” Subs. All were active and worked well together. However the performance of the smaller 10s in the RCF and the 8” speakers in my cab (the inspiration for the Basschat Easybuild 8” Cabinet) made me think (insert snide comments here). 
 

I knew from the 8” cabinet that a good 8” driver could go low enough and flat enough to work down to the point where a sub woofer could take over the heavy lifting. Indeed recent active speaker models from RCF,  Wharfedale and others have offered extended frequency response and what RCF call FIRPhase Whatfedale call just FIR. They both aim to maintain phase alignment at the crossover point between the woofer and tweeter. They offer 127/128dB max SPL peak (122/123dB real life) and the response extends below the 100Hz area where most subs take over. 
  
As I said earlier, I had used the RCF 310As (MK2?) and was impressed, so my initial thought was a pair of RCF Art310A MK4. A they are discontinued, and RCF did not make a MK5  10”version, I ordered a pair from my neighbourhood German Music Store. Thomann had bought RCF’s  remaining stock of the MK4 but all was not well. One was DOA so they both went back and a refund was offered. 
 

So, I looked around and Whatfedale Pro had added FIR technology to their Typhon Range. Although Whatfedale are now Chinese owned, the UK Arm still seems to do the R&D and like RCF, they make their own drivers. I love my Titan 12s so after much discussion I bought the Typhon 8 AXF and first impressions are favourable. The sound is well balanced and at just over 10Kgs reassuringly heavy for an 8”. Testing is ongoing and I will update later. 

 

[Chienmortbb]

As a gentleman of a certain age, neither me or my car is interested in hernia inducing 15/18” subs. So my interest was piqued when @Happy Jack started his small, lightweight  sub quest. After receiving many recommendations, he found the Citronic Casa 10BA. Having sold my JBL subs, I had a few groats to spend and ended up being the owner of one. I was firmly bitten by GAS now and after hearing it, ordered a second.

 

I had a hernia operation on Sept 2nd so we had kept the diary clear and close to the end of my 6 week “ no heavy lifting” spell, I developed a rotator cuff injury to my shoulder so no real world resting, even in rehearsals. I will report back later when I have more. 
 

So earlier in the year, I had no intention of buying a new PA and a pair of 8” tops and 10” subs were not even considered. While they would not do a really big gig, for the  pubs clubs and parties we do, I am sure they will be more than enough. 

[Phil Starr]

I'm really interested in seeing how this turns out John. I've played with a couple of 8" tops with a decent sized sub when we did a spot at an open mic in Wokingham. I think the tops were a couple of Alto's. In a typical sized English pub they were appropriately loud, vocals were well handled and everythind sounded as it should. The house band sounded fantastic and this was with live drums, albeit a modest sized kit.

 

I see no reason why this sort of set up shouldn't match one of the modern 'stick' systems which often have a 12" or even 2x8" dedicated sub. The 8" tops will be more directional but that could mean that the sound is thrown further, so which works best would depend upon the venue.

 

You aren't too far from me so it would be good to come out and see how you get on.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

An eight loaded top is sufficient for pub gigs, provided the woofer is of high quality. The same applies to eight loaded subs. The trick lies in knowing the quality of the woofer, as manufacturers are loathe to reveal what they're loaded with. 

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The 8" tops will be more directional but that could mean that the sound is thrown further, so which works best would depend upon the venue.

Eight loaded tops are less directional, as the angle of dispersion is inversely proportional to the size of the cone/radiating plane . As to throw, the inverse square rule applies to all driver sizes. The advantage to 'stick' systems is they have very wide dispersion on the horizontal plane, due to the smaller driver sizes, along with narrow dispersion on the vertical plane, due to the taller radiating plane. That aims more sound into the audience, less at the floor and ceiling. The disadvantage is most use woofers too small to do the job, at an unjustifiable price. A very good arrangement is a 2x8 top, which can give output equal to a 1x12, with wider horizontal dispersion and narrower vertical dispersion. The same applies to 4x6.5 inch tops. But those are few and far in between, as their advantages are very much unknown to the average user.  

[Phil Starr]

2 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Eight loaded tops are less directional, as the angle of dispersion is inversely proportional to the size of the cone/radiating plane .

I''m surprised at you Bill. You'll be aware that the idea is to crossover to a horn which determines the radiating pattern in the midrange and not the woofer. Above the crossover area the size of the woofer is largely irrelevant. That is as opposed to the 2,3 or more rarely 4" speakers in the columns which as you say have a wide dispersion in the horizontal plane. I can't think that you really believe that those 2 mor three inch speakers in a column would outperform the horn in a point source speaker. 

 

Perhaps to make things a bit clearer I shgould clarify. John's speakers will have a similar output to many of the stick systems like the RCF J8 and similar speakers. The dispersion of these different design approaches are that the columns spread the sound widely in the horizontal plane and the point source speaker with subs will radiate over a narrower area, typically something like 90x60. In some rooms the advantage might be to the point source speaker and in others to the column. The horns in the Typhon are 100x80 so are pretty much designed for near field but still more directional than one of the 'sticks'.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

I was referring to the dispersion of the woofer, not the high frequency element. One of the main shortcomings of many twelve and fifteen inch loaded PA tops is they tend to cross over to the HF element at too high a frequency, which should be no higher than 1.2kHz with fifteens, 2kHz with twelves. Those that do get it right tend to be in the upper price range.    

Edited November 8 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[Aliwobble]

My band gigged with Cerwin Vega CVA28 tops (they are an active 2x8) for a decade with a single 18" sub underneath. Plenty loud enough for pub gigs and marquee weddings. I'm doing sound for other bands now, using the same setup, and my musicians love them and the audience is happy.

[tauzero]

We use Alto TS308s for FOH and TS408s for monitors (it works better that way round, the 408s are an ideal shape for monitors). Vocals only most of the time, sometimes one of the guitars and sometimes my soft synth. They're great.

[Phil Starr]

9 hours ago, tauzero said:

We use Alto TS308s for FOH and TS408s for monitors (it works better that way round, the 408s are an ideal shape for monitors). Vocals only most of the time, sometimes one of the guitars and sometimes my soft synth. They're great.

I'm pretty sure these were what I played through at the open mic. 

[Chienmortbb]

13 hours ago, tauzero said:

We use Alto TS308s for FOH and TS408s for monitors (it works better that way round, the 408s are an ideal shape for monitors). Vocals only most of the time, sometimes one of the guitars and sometimes my soft synth. They're great.

I have been wondering whether my Titan 12s or Typhon 8s would work best as FOH or stage monitors. It should be noted that the Titans are well over a decade old and uses a simple analogue crossover but has always sounded great on vocals. 
 

BFM is correct that most low-mid range cabinet crossover at a frequency that is too high for the woofer and crossover frequency is in the worse place possible for reproducing the human voice, in particular the female voice. 

Those Altos have a good reputation and the thing that put me off them was the exaggerated specifications. The make Behringer look conservative. However we have never had such a good choice at reasonable prices. Wharfedale have also released updated versions of the Tourus range, called Tourus+, they also incorporate FIR filters.  

Titan

 

[tauzero]

On 11/11/2025 at 13:30, Chienmortbb said:

Those Altos have a good reputation and the thing that put me off them was the exaggerated specifications.

 

Admittedly they're a bit of a wild claim, but let me reassure you that when the guitarist f*cks his volume setting up and you've neglected to put a limiter on the mixer, the result is mind-buggeringly loud.

[Chienmortbb]

I was not doubting the quality or maximum SPL of the Altos. It’s just that the marketing specs surpass RCF and QSC speakers costing many times more. 
 

Mackie were very bad at clawing thousands of watts for the original Thump series, and when I looked inside, they had a 340 watt class D amplifier. Even the mighty RCF do not put limits on their frequency response figures. It is a malaise that goes throughout the industry. 
 

 

 

Edited Thursday at 19:13 by Chienmortbb

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

To paraphrase Disraeli there are lies, there are damned lies, and there are specifications. 😮 No eight inch driver can take 650 watts continuous mechanically. No eight inch driver in a direct radiating enclosure can produce 126dB continuous. This is an example of the marketing department writing a cheque that the engineering department can't cover. Yes, most companies play the same game, but that doesn't make it any less dishonest. 🤥

[agedhorse]

Just be aware that the actual radiation pattern is only loosely connected to the diameter.
 

The calculated pattern does not include the elements that modify the pattern, things like cone shape, depth, dust cap shape, material and coupling to the bobbin. 

[moley6knipe]

The Altos are… good. The specs are nonsense marketing waffle, but they’re capable enough for the money. And compact and light enough. If you’re a function band charging £5k a night then no, if (like me) you’re playing at the Frog and Hand Shandy and knocking out Brown Eyed Girl for the 748th time they’re well worth a look!

[Chienmortbb]

On 16/11/2025 at 22:17, moley6knipe said:

Brown Eyed Girl

That and Dance the Night Away are my idea of hell.

[Stub Mandrel]

Curiosity, why are people who make their own excellent bass cabs buying ready made PA speakers?

Edited 18 hours ago by Stub Mandrel

[agedhorse]

2 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Curiosity, why are people who make their own excellent bass cabs buying ready made PA speakers?

Maybe because they can buy a proven solution without trying to reinvent the wheel?

 

I've heard some dreadful DIY PA gear in my career, yet the "builders" of that gear thought they were the greatest speakers since sliced bread. 

 

I designed commercial pro audio gear (including speakers) for a couple of the larger US and Italian manufacturers, and even with my in-house resources, it just didn't make sense unless those manufacturers were paying me to build prototypes or sample units. 

[Stub Mandrel]

6 hours ago, agedhorse said:

Maybe because they can buy a proven solution without trying to reinvent the wheel?

 

I've heard some dreadful DIY PA gear in my career, yet the "builders" of that gear thought they were the greatest speakers since sliced bread. 

 

I designed commercial pro audio gear (including speakers) for a couple of the larger US and Italian manufacturers, and even with my in-house resources, it just didn't make sense unless those manufacturers were paying me to build prototypes or sample units. 

 

All true, but that argument applies equally to bass cabs.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

12 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Curiosity, why are people who make their own excellent bass cabs buying ready made PA speakers?

'Tis puzzlement for sure. If they have the chops to design and build good bass cabs they have the chops to design and build good PA cabs. On the flip side: 

Quote

I've heard some dreadful DIY PA gear in my career, yet the "builders" of that gear thought they were the greatest speakers since sliced bread.

The same absolutely applies to bass cabs. 

[Chienmortbb]

44 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

All true, but that argument applies equally to bass cabs.

You are correct in many ways, but the basschat designs are well proven, so building them is low risk and relatively low cost. This 8" design is not only proven but at two bass bashes, under blind test conditions, was chosen as the best of all the cabinets. It should not really be a surprise as the driver was chosen for its extended response, meaning that it sounds good without a tweeter. Some, although not all, of the other drivers were bigger and those that, were originally using a crossover/tweeter, were rewired so that the HF section was disconnected. Of course, like many blind tests, it is hard to make them completely blind, but it was an interesting exercise.

 

However, blindly putting drivers in existing cabs is what BFM might calla Crap Shoot and the odds are stacked against you. 

[Phil Starr]

13 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Curiosity, why are people who make their own excellent bass cabs buying ready made PA speakers?

It's both economics and functionality. I use RCF 745's; the 4" coil compression units are £300 ea, the amplifier modules £200+ per amp and a 15" drive unit from RCF around £300, that's without th e DSP, matching horn flare and all the other bits of hardware. Building at that standard would cost well over £1,000 per cab and I paid £1300 for a pair second hand. In addition I don't really have the facilities to develop and design the crossover, even if I had that level of skill. I know how long it took @stevie to design the crossovers for his cabs and this is someone who designed for KEF and Yamaha. Did I mention the cost of pro level design software?

 

The truth is that it would be really challenging to match the technology now used in speaker design. The plus side is that you can buy some really good kit for not a lot of money. Active cabs with amplification and speakers designed as a complete system saves money and time setting up and allows you the chance to design in things that the best sound engineers can do but few bands could deliver. It's a bit like trying to build your own car, you might be able to build something which excels in one aspect but it is going to cost you a fortune, take up hours of your time and isn't going to be able to match an ordinary family car in general usefulness and probably reliability

 

On a practical level if I am in a band I want a PA I can use tomorrow. I'd be balancing the needs of the band against any desire to build my own PA and if the band folds I can sell the PA and get most of my investment back.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Quote

Did I mention the cost of pro level design software?

Zero. 😮

http://hornresp.net/

While it's called hornresp it will do horns, transmission lines, and direct radiators both sealed and ported. 

https://xsim.software.informer.com/

The only catch is you need Z and FRD files, but those are available for most drivers.

Cost of the software is no issue. Learning how to use it is the hard part. Where going active is concerned there are full DSP plate amps at reasonable cost. Even if you go DIY with the amp the cost of DSP to go with it is about 10% of what it was 20 years ago. 

Not that I'd recommend trying to design your own for a one off build, the time it takes to acquire the skills required ranges from months for simple designs to years for complex designs. But there's no shortage of plans available from those who have done the work. 

 

[agedhorse]

7 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

All true, but that argument applies equally to bass cabs.

Indeed it does, if you want it to look nice. 

[agedhorse]

1 hour ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Zero. 😮

http://hornresp.net/

While it's called hornresp it will do horns, transmission lines, and direct radiators both sealed and ported. 

https://xsim.software.informer.com/

The only catch is you need Z and FRD files, but those are available for most drivers.

Cost of the software is no issue. Learning how to use it is the hard part. Where going active is concerned there are full DSP plate amps at reasonable cost. Even if you go DIY with the amp the cost of DSP to go with it is about 10% of what it was 20 years ago. 

Not that I'd recommend trying to design your own for a one off build, the time it takes to acquire the skills required ranges from months for simple designs to years for complex designs. But there's no shortage of plans available from those who have done the work. 

 

Yet many of those plans are pretty poor when compared with established quality commercial designs. That’s been my experience overall. 
 

Economies of scale regarding quality commercial conditions makes it very difficult to build for less cost, especially if considering the used market.