Nad rattling lows

[Mr. Foxen]

I'm still playing really loud really low stuff, so I'm looking for a rig that gives me a lot of bottom at a great deal of volume. The higher stuff I'm sorted for, my Thor head into my 8x10 is quite sufficient for that. Its the bottom end element I need to sort. Currently I am borrowing Joe Garcia's Sunn 1200s and Aguilar GS412, so some seriously nice kit, and that does what I'm after, but it ain't mine. What other option do I have in that style? I want to vibrate you eyeballs in you head so you hallucinate. I would ideally like a rather simpler head, maybe a LH1000, or Mesa 400 (valves are a favoured option, although I don't think they are necessary) and a Barefaced Vintage, possibly with the Big Sub 3015LF style speakers.

[escholl]

[url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/db_technologies_hpa_2800.htm"]This[/url] and [url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/peavey_pv23_xo.htm"]this[/url] with a BF Vintage with 3015LF's?

I don't really know what your budget is, so i'm just throwing stuff out there. Low frequencies tend to require a lot of power so valves are probably not the most efficient solution, also SS amps will usually have a lot better damping, which should help keep the low frequency reproduction a bit more controlled.

[Mr. Foxen]

This is an options exploring thing, so no real budget considerations, can save up, and sell off.

This would be ideal:


Maybe PA subs are the way, but I kind of want it to be a stand alone sound on its own.

[joegarcia]

Matamp 300 and Mesa 2x15. Sorted.

[escholl]

Hmm, well, tough to know then. I still think the above option of SS is going to be one of your best bets, but if you really want the tube option then something designed around a valve like [url="http://www.cpii.com/docs/datasheets/78/3CX1000A7-8283.pdf"]this[/url] might be more practical -- although still expensive and heavy. no ideas where you'll find a design, or an amp, though.

if you can get your hands on one of the old peavey 2x18's or a folded horn design maybe (i know HH did some in the early eighties), that would likely work as well. having said that speak to Alex, I still think either a Vintage or a pair of his smaller cabs (perhaps with only the LF driver in) would do the trick nicely.


was that valve amp you posted every designed as anything more than a bench experiment? it's just that the size, weight, power requirements, cooling, part costs, and inefficiency likely to be present kind of limits any practical application.

[edit: i envision your bass rig looking something like [url="http://www.hhamplification.co.uk/gallerypic.asp?bigpics=dbfiles/gallery/pa2.jpg"]this[/url] before long.]

Edited June 14, 2009 by escholl

[grumble]

[quote][edit: i envision your bass rig looking something like this before long.][/quote]

Why did you have to kick in the nostalgia ?
My favourite amp was a HH IC00L and that link took me WAY back

<edited for dumb speiling error>

Edited June 14, 2009 by grumble

[Merton]

Big One without the mid driver. Sorted

[Hamster]

Depends whose nads you want to damage? On stage go for Mr Clabers fine products - a pair of Big One's, or build a pair of Mr Fitzmaurices fine products - a pair of coupled Titan 39's and power them with an amp with the balls to remove them!

For the PA, just add lots more subwoofers to taste!

[alexclaber]

I'd bridge a power amp into one or two Big Subs. No point bothering with a head when power amps get you more power for less money and the extra internal volume per driver of the Big One/Sub adds a lot of sensitivity in the lows. I'd recommend a power amp with high pass filter set at somewhere between 30 and 40Hz, that way you can push the cab(s) really hard without the driver bottoming out.

Alex

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='513210' date='Jun 14 2009, 11:34 AM']I'd bridge a power amp into one or two Big Subs. No point bothering with a head when power amps get you more power for less money and the extra internal volume per driver of the Big One/Sub adds a lot of sensitivity in the lows. I'd recommend a power amp with high pass filter set at somewhere between 30 and 40Hz, that way you can push the cab(s) really hard without the driver bottoming out.

Alex[/quote]


I'm using a low A, with the fundamental at around 25hz, so if it cut below 30, would myA lose something compared to my B, as suddenly a fequency is being dumped from the bottom? I'm aware you can't really hear that fundamental, but wouldn't it be a bunch like playing an A an octave higher?

I have an old folded horn, but it needs a new driver, part of the reason for this thread is to explore the other possibilities with my monies. Pushing lows into it rattles it out, but with a modern sub driver it might be better, but it also might not really be ideal, shame cause it looks totally the part.

With previous band only played two gigs with a PA that it was worth putting any bass through, always had to run off the backline.

Claber, could you load a vintage with the 3015LF drivers so its dubby and a one cab tall solution?

[escholl]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='513254' date='Jun 14 2009, 12:31 PM']I'm using a low A, with the fundamental at around 25hz, so if it cut below 30, would myA lose something compared to my B, as suddenly a fequency is being dumped from the bottom? I'm aware you can't really hear that fundamental, but wouldn't it be a bunch like playing an A an octave higher?[/quote]

the spacing of the harmonics differs, and so even if you can't hear the fundamental, your ear will synthesize it when you hear it. even alex's cabs are going to have a much lower sensitivity down at 30 Hz (and so are your ears, for that matter), most of what you will hear of the low A will be the second and third harmonics at 50 Hz and 75 Hz -- by filtering the frequencies below 30 Hz before the power amplifier stage, you will save a lot of amplifier power and unneeded speaker excursion, which you can then use to drive said speakers even harder in the range you want.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='escholl' post='513261' date='Jun 14 2009, 12:43 PM']the spacing of the harmonics differs, and so even if you can't hear the fundamental, your ear will synthesize it when you hear it. even alex's cabs are going to have a much lower sensitivity down at 30 Hz (and so are your ears, for that matter), most of what you will hear of the low A will be the second and third harmonics at 50 Hz and 75 Hz -- by filtering the frequencies below 30 Hz before the power amplifier stage, you will save a lot of amplifier power and unneeded speaker excursion, which you can then use to drive said speakers even harder in the range you want.[/quote]

I am familiar with this, but the idea is the sound is a bit beyond what you are hearing with ears. If you seen Sunn O))) or Asva, a lot of it is about your whole body feeling the sound. The concern is when I'm playing a there'll be some 31hz there but much more 62 and 124 etc, but when I go down to the A, there'll just the the 50hz 100hz etc., so its as iff I carved off the very bottom. Those frequencies aren't there for your ears. I'm fairly sure my bass puts out a stringer fundamental than most as octavers track it really well, and when I'm putting it through a little cab that isn't taking the lows, there is a definite point the sound is lacking, even if the note is clear and the speaker isn't farting, which I guess is the natural low roll off.

[Alien]

This should do you...

[attachment=27016:BIG_bass.jpg]

A

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Alien' post='513270' date='Jun 14 2009, 12:56 PM']This should do you...

[attachment=27016:BIG_bass.jpg]

A[/quote]

That's the sort of thing I'm after. Those BFMs? Totally don't have the workspace for making stuff, but were up there in the considering.

[escholl]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='513267' date='Jun 14 2009, 12:53 PM']I am familiar with this, but the idea is the sound is a bit beyond what you are hearing with ears. If you seen Sunn O))) or Asva, a lot of it is about your whole body feeling the sound. The concern is when I'm playing a there'll be some 31hz there but much more 62 and 124 etc, but when I go down to the A, there'll just the the 50hz 100hz etc., so its as iff I carved off the very bottom. Those frequencies aren't there for your ears. I'm fairly sure my bass puts out a stringer fundamental than most as octavers track it really well, and when I'm putting it through a little cab that isn't taking the lows, there is a definite point the sound is lacking, even if the note is clear and the speaker isn't farting, which I guess is the natural low roll off.[/quote]

well, the only way to go then is a lot of power and cabs that can handle it, really. a set of Alex's subs or a BFM Titan or something similar, coupled to an active crossover and a couple of kW of SS power.

but really, the right high pass filter at 30 or 40 Hz is going to have much less of a negative impact in the lows than you think, even when it comes to shaking people -- it is really just going to spare the amp and drivers.

[Alien]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='513272' date='Jun 14 2009, 01:03 PM']That's the sort of thing I'm after. Those BFMs? Totally don't have the workspace for making stuff, but were up there in the considering.[/quote]

Yup. They're Tuba 36 subs. That little stack should be good for around 150dB @ 40Hz if loaded with 3015LFs.

And no, they aren't mine (more's the pity)

A

[Hamster]

IIRC Bill Fitmaurice suggests the Titans are best for live sound, and the Tubas are better for recorded sound - don't ask me why though!

For a few dollars you can buy the Titan plans from Bill - I've got the plans for a Titan and it's quite an easy build.

[Alien]

[quote name='Hamster' post='513279' date='Jun 14 2009, 01:20 PM']IIRC Bill Fitmaurice suggests the Titans are best for live sound, and the Tubas are better for recorded sound - don't ask me why though!

For a few dollars you can buy the Titan plans from Bill - I've got the plans for a Titan and it's quite an easy build.[/quote]

Titans go a bit louder, Tubas go a bit lower. Mind you, when you get a stack of 6 with a kilowatt or so going through it, it all becomes a bit academic...

A

[escholl]

[quote name='Alien' post='513276' date='Jun 14 2009, 01:11 PM']That little stack should be good for around 150dB @ 40Hz if loaded with 3015LFs.[/quote]

and how do you figure that?

[Alien]

[quote name='escholl' post='513382' date='Jun 14 2009, 04:04 PM']and how do you figure that? [/quote]

OK, just went back and had a quick look at the charts and then did a bit of basic arithmetic. They should actually only be good for 140dB (oh, [i]only[/i] 140...) but should be capable of doing that all the way down to 30Hz.

I've based that on charts shown [url="http://billfitzmaurice.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=541"]here[/url]

A

[WHUFC BASS]

This should do the job nicely...





This is an actual rig used by the Grateful Dead.

Low calorie it aint....

Edited June 14, 2009 by WHUFC BASS

[escholl]

[quote name='Alien' post='513409' date='Jun 14 2009, 04:45 PM']OK, just went back and had a quick look at the charts and then did a bit of basic arithmetic. They should actually only be good for 140dB (oh, [i]only[/i] 140...) but should be capable of doing that all the way down to 30Hz.

I've based that on charts shown [url="http://billfitzmaurice.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=541"]here[/url]

A[/quote]

the extra ten or so dB you had was where the was coming from.

[Mr. Foxen]

So one of those BFM jobs looks bunches like what I'm after, but there is no way I have the space to be making one. Non sound considerations are being about the size of an 8x10 so it can sit next to it on stage. If I stick a modern sub driver in my W horn cab, is it gonna give me a bunch of lows, even if I have to eq it in (this sort of appeals as the sound of that cab alone is a useable sound, but the speaker is on its way out, due to age)? Will putting full signal into something designed as a sub damage it or just fail to make the higher stuff into sound?

[escholl]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='513759' date='Jun 15 2009, 12:15 AM']So one of those BFM jobs looks bunches like what I'm after, but there is no way I have the space to be making one. Non sound considerations are being about the size of an 8x10 so it can sit next to it on stage. If I stick a modern sub driver in my W horn cab, is it gonna give me a bunch of lows, even if I have to eq it in (this sort of appeals as the sound of that cab alone is a useable sound, but the speaker is on its way out, due to age)? Will putting full signal into something designed as a sub damage it or just fail to make the higher stuff into sound?[/quote]

it won't damage it, although it would probably make sense to use an active crossover before the power amp, as reproducing the higher frequencies will only expend power that could be driving the lower frequencies -- however, unless you're running the amp right on the edge, it probably won't make a huge difference. a good 18 could probably make that cab work for you pretty well. Something like [url="http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=PDIPD186-4&browsemode=manufacturer"]this[/url] maybe.

[joegarcia]

[quote name='escholl' post='513797' date='Jun 15 2009, 01:54 AM']it won't damage it, although it would probably make sense to use an active crossover before the power amp, as reproducing the higher frequencies will only expend power that could be driving the lower frequencies -- however, unless you're running the amp right on the edge, it probably won't make a huge difference. a good 18 could probably make that cab work for you pretty well. Something like [url="http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=PDIPD186-4&browsemode=manufacturer"]this[/url] maybe.[/quote]

Haha. I suggested that PD driver to him months ago! Thanks for backing me up.
I know it's not technically perfect but it's the right compromise between sound and aesthetics in this case.