alexclaber Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='513254' date='Jun 14 2009, 12:31 PM']I'm using a low A, with the fundamental at around 25hz, so if it cut below 30, would myA lose something compared to my B, as suddenly a fequency is being dumped from the bottom? I'm aware you can't really hear that fundamental, but wouldn't it be a bunch like playing an A an octave higher?[/quote] It wouldn't. The only way you'll discover this is to try it. Bear in mind that to get as much output from a rig that can go to 25Hz as a rig that goes to 50Hz with equal power you will need the 25Hz rig to be eight times as large. Or twice as much power and four times as big. Etc. [quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='513254' date='Jun 14 2009, 12:31 PM']I have an old folded horn, but it needs a new driver, part of the reason for this thread is to explore the other possibilities with my monies. Pushing lows into it rattles it out, but with a modern sub driver it might be better, but it also might not really be ideal, shame cause it looks totally the part.[/quote] Your old folded horn has too short a path length to reach much below 80Hz. [quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='513254' date='Jun 14 2009, 12:31 PM']Claber, could you load a vintage with the 3015LF drivers so its dubby and a one cab tall solution?[/quote] The problem with that is there isn't enough internal volume so the system would cut off higher with the 3015LFs than with the 3015s. Plus you'd need a bigger port to handle the 3015LF's excursion. Putting one 3015LF in the Vintage and tuning the port lower (and not cutting the other woofer hole) would work well, getting you almost flat to 40Hz. [quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='513267' date='Jun 14 2009, 12:53 PM']I am familiar with this, but the idea is the sound is a bit beyond what you are hearing with ears. If you seen Sunn O))) or Asva, a lot of it is about your whole body feeling the sound. The concern is when I'm playing a there'll be some 31hz there but much more 62 and 124 etc, but when I go down to the A, there'll just the the 50hz 100hz etc., so its as iff I carved off the very bottom. Those frequencies aren't there for your ears. I'm fairly sure my bass puts out a stringer fundamental than most as octavers track it really well, and when I'm putting it through a little cab that isn't taking the lows, there is a definite point the sound is lacking, even if the note is clear and the speaker isn't farting, which I guess is the natural low roll off.[/quote] I think you'll find you're noticing the smaller cabs struggling to reproduce the first AND second harmonic and possibly even the third! [quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='513759' date='Jun 15 2009, 12:15 AM']So one of those BFM jobs looks bunches like what I'm after, but there is no way I have the space to be making one. Non sound considerations are being about the size of an 8x10 so it can sit next to it on stage. If I stick a modern sub driver in my W horn cab, is it gonna give me a bunch of lows, even if I have to eq it in (this sort of appeals as the sound of that cab alone is a useable sound, but the speaker is on its way out, due to age)? Will putting full signal into something designed as a sub damage it or just fail to make the higher stuff into sound?[/quote] The W horn will never give you a bunch of lows, only lots of mid-bass and low-mids. With the gear I produce I still think your best best is two Big Subs. Alternatively a large ported cab with a PDN.2151 or a Titan 48 or Tuba 36 with 3015LF (bear in mind though that horn subs work best in multiples to get more suitable mouth area). Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
escholl Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 [quote name='joegarcia' post='513803' date='Jun 15 2009, 03:52 AM']Haha. I suggested that PD driver to him months ago! Thanks for backing me up. I know it's not technically perfect but it's the right compromise between sound and aesthetics in this case.[/quote] haha no worries as you say, it might not be the best solution from a technical standpoint, but in addition to the aesthetics i'd imagine the significantly lower cost of the one driver versus other solutions would make it at least worth trying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umph Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 [quote name='escholl' post='513098' date='Jun 14 2009, 01:29 AM']Hmm, well, tough to know then. I still think the above option of SS is going to be one of your best bets, but if you really want the tube option then something designed around a valve like [url="http://www.cpii.com/docs/datasheets/78/3CX1000A7-8283.pdf"]this[/url] might be more practical -- although still expensive and heavy. no ideas where you'll find a design, or an amp, though.[/quote] haha i'm tempted now i've been looking a for a valve that puts out that kind of wattage, the only problem is that the transformers would have to be massive and thus its going to be a 3man lift or something! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted June 15, 2009 Author Share Posted June 15, 2009 It's still the wrong impedance and the wrong mounting holes just like it was then. Since then I've found the Eminence Omega pro 18 is suitable for resstoring the cab to its original function, as its reccomended for restoring old Acoustic cabs to giggable. Its going to give a nice warm rumble like them, but not the nad rattling I'm after, it would seem. Gonna do that for now, wear in the speaker and see if I can trade that lovely vintage stack for something modern and vast. Or get another one and couple them as they are supposed to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='514064' date='Jun 15 2009, 12:30 PM']Or get another one and couple them as they are supposed to be.[/quote] Coupling the mouths won't help as the path length will still be too short. Horn subs work well in fixed installs because you can design them for a long path length but small mouth and then corner load them (only quarter mouth size required compared to half space) or if you need enough SPL to use lots at once in which case the mouths add up. But if the horn path isn't long enough then all the mouth area in the world won't do anything for you. I guess if I were doing a Barefaced doom rig then I'd bridge a big power amp into one or two Big Subs and then run a smaller valve amp into a Midget. That would be scary loud and deep and thunderous yet as dirty and mean as you like. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
escholl Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 [quote name='alexclaber' post='514085' date='Jun 15 2009, 12:46 PM']I guess if I were doing a Barefaced doom rig then I'd bridge a big power amp into one or two Big Subs and then run a smaller valve amp into a Midget. That would be scary loud and deep and thunderous yet as dirty and mean as you like.[/quote] all while being lightweight and portable too ^_^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted June 15, 2009 Author Share Posted June 15, 2009 [quote name='escholl' post='514117' date='Jun 15 2009, 01:07 PM']all while being lightweight and portable too ^_^[/quote] Not Doom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umph Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='514128' date='Jun 15 2009, 01:16 PM']Not Doom.[/quote] +1 its not doom if the load in doesn't require you to get to gigs 3 hours before soundcheck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted June 15, 2009 Author Share Posted June 15, 2009 [quote name='alexclaber' post='514085' date='Jun 15 2009, 12:46 PM']Coupling the mouths won't help as the path length will still be too short. Horn subs work well in fixed installs because you can design them for a long path length but small mouth and then corner load them (only quarter mouth size required compared to half space) or if you need enough SPL to use lots at once in which case the mouths add up. But if the horn path isn't long enough then all the mouth area in the world won't do anything for you. I guess if I were doing a Barefaced doom rig then I'd bridge a big power amp into one or two Big Subs and then run a smaller valve amp into a Midget. That would be scary loud and deep and thunderous yet as dirty and mean as you like. Alex[/quote] Coupling them as in necxt to eachother or at right angles to eachother with a board bridging them bolted to the top? Can't actually find the reference to doing that now, but I read it when I was looking up the earthquake subs the speakers were originally made for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
escholl Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='514128' date='Jun 15 2009, 01:16 PM']Not Doom.[/quote] pfff, just get him to make a special "doom" version for you out of thick heavy plywood with a rusted grill. ^_^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted June 15, 2009 Author Share Posted June 15, 2009 [quote name='escholl' post='514143' date='Jun 15 2009, 01:27 PM']pfff, just get him to make a special "doom" version for you out of thick heavy plywood with a rusted grill. ^_^[/quote] That would be like relicing. Gotta find a cab, in a skip, floating in a swamp, that is overlooked by a ruined church, with a bell tolling. Also, an owl, hooting at you. Haev a dude in mind who would make a BFM titan for me, he played bass in the 60s/70s and had an Acoustic rig, so think he'll be a good dude to do it. Monies though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Just find some big old 1x15" boxes, cut some bigger ports, tune them to the same frequency and stick some 3015LFs in. And add a load more bracing on the inside. Weird old horn cabs won't work but old ported or sealed ones are certainly usable. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted June 15, 2009 Author Share Posted June 15, 2009 [quote name='alexclaber' post='514198' date='Jun 15 2009, 02:08 PM']Just find some big old 1x15" boxes, cut some bigger ports, tune them to the same frequency and stick some 3015LFs in. And add a load more bracing on the inside. Weird old horn cabs won't work but old ported or sealed ones are certainly usable. Alex[/quote] Doom Might measure up that 6x10 for a new baffle, that would be sort of ideal. does winisd have the 3015LF data in it now? I was missing one stat last time I tried to use it. Or a couple of 10" sub drivers? Any that are any good? Block the other holes/port some and a few good 10s should do low right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 (edited) Greenboy has lots of the data here: [url="http://www.lowdownlowdown.com/greenboy/DL/WinISD/"]http://www.lowdownlowdown.com/greenboy/DL/WinISD/[/url] Nothing will move more air for the money/weight than the 3015LF. If you can find some pipe that's ~10" in diameter then you can use one of the exisiting 10" holes as a port. In fact if you can find a bigger pipe as well then you could put it behind one of the 10" holes at the top to act as a sub-enclosure and then chuck a guitar driver in there for your mids. Alex Edited June 15, 2009 by alexclaber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 [quote name='alexclaber' post='514331' date='Jun 15 2009, 03:57 PM']Nothing will move more air for the money than the 3015LF.[/quote] This will - much more. [url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/p-audio-p210-254-21-driver_W0QQitemZ130312286006QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_ConElec_SpeakersPASystems_RL?hash=item1e5737af36&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12|66%3A2|39%3A1|72%3A1683|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/p-audio-p210-254-21-...93%3A1|294%3A50[/url] Put it in a 200/50 litre box and you won't look back. Just make sure you have money in your budget for some castors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 If you can get that P-Audio driver for much less than £200 then it will do doom-ish lows at a good price. As will all 21"s the midrange is hopeless but you don't want it for that. At 44lbs for the driver alone the load-in should be as painful as you're hoping for! Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted June 15, 2009 Author Share Posted June 15, 2009 [quote name='stevie' post='514386' date='Jun 15 2009, 04:21 PM']This will - much more. [url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/p-audio-p210-254-21-driver_W0QQitemZ130312286006QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_ConElec_SpeakersPASystems_RL?hash=item1e5737af36&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12|66%3A2|39%3A1|72%3A1683|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/p-audio-p210-254-21-...93%3A1|294%3A50[/url] Put it in a 200/50 litre box and you won't look back. Just make sure you have money in your budget for some castors.[/quote] OK, severely tempted to bid on that, even if the Xmax is bunch lower than the 3015lf, just to have a 21, pretty Doom as ALex says. The cab will have tractor tyres. And no more of this 'midrange' nonsense, I'm sorted for it, and it's off topic, as is everything above, say, 150hz. Looking out for the big old Peavey 15 cabs with the white edge bits, not the ones Shockwave has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-soar Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 This would be quite nice to have. [url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=531362"]http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=531362[/url] I use to have a 1820 cab, just one 18", it was really heavy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted June 15, 2009 Author Share Posted June 15, 2009 I want a clear W horn so I don't have to try and explain it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
escholl Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 [quote name='steve-soar' post='514636' date='Jun 15 2009, 07:38 PM']This would be quite nice to have. [url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=531362"]http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=531362[/url] I use to have a 1820 cab, just one 18", it was really heavy.[/quote] i think the 3620 was the cab i was thinking of when i mentioned a peavey 2x18 earlier, as i remembered seeing a few people with them on [url="http://www.foreverdoomed.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=113"]this thread[/url] on the DFFD forums. didn't know the name of the cab though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted June 17, 2009 Author Share Posted June 17, 2009 [quote name='alexclaber' post='514331' date='Jun 15 2009, 03:57 PM']Greenboy has lots of the data here: [url="http://www.lowdownlowdown.com/greenboy/DL/WinISD/"]http://www.lowdownlowdown.com/greenboy/DL/WinISD/[/url] Nothing will move more air for the money/weight than the 3015LF. If you can find some pipe that's ~10" in diameter then you can use one of the exisiting 10" holes as a port. In fact if you can find a bigger pipe as well then you could put it behind one of the 10" holes at the top to act as a sub-enclosure and then chuck a guitar driver in there for your mids. Alex[/quote] How do I import those? I saved the files to the 'drivers' directory, but they aren't in the same format. I tried copy and pasting the data, but something was wrong as it suggested a .2l enclosure with a 200m long port for 3015LFs. What I was trying to do was figure if I made a box the same size as my 8x10 with a pair of them in, how big should I make the ports. Alternatively, how much low would I get from one in the box from my 6x10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
escholl Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='517013' date='Jun 17 2009, 11:16 PM']How do I import those? I saved the files to the 'drivers' directory, but they aren't in the same format. I tried copy and pasting the data, but something was wrong as it suggested a .2l enclosure with a 200m long port for 3015LFs. What I was trying to do was figure if I made a box the same size as my 8x10 with a pair of them in, how big should I make the ports. Alternatively, how much low would I get from one in the box from my 6x10.[/quote] they are in the same *.wdr format WinISD pro uses, not sure if that's different to the regular non-pro one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted June 17, 2009 Author Share Posted June 17, 2009 [quote name='escholl' post='517041' date='Jun 17 2009, 11:52 PM']they are in the same *.wdr format WinISD pro uses, not sure if that's different to the regular non-pro one.[/quote] That will be it, I'm using beta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorris Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 I think it would be useful to say why you need the rig - backline / on stage monitoring ; running the whole bass sound from the rig ; mic'd recording etc. What size stages you playing if applicable ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rslaing Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 I have a 4X15 Acoustic cab (a la Jaco) that I bought in 1980 that should give a fair degree of trouser flap. I haven't used it for 15 years because I can't afford a crane to get it in to the van. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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