12-string Custom Build - Which Builder and Why?

[NancyJohnson]

9 hours ago, Wolverinebass said:

The DI is mixed on the XB driver. Not that I'd get one at £600 when you can do that and a lot more with an HX Stomp. Or just get a Dug pedal which is much cheaper.

 

Or just order one from Sweetwater and get your brother in law to bring it home from a business trip in Texas.

 

The XB is a definite step up from the dUg pedal, but ultimately once you dial in your desired tone, you're not going to stray far from that.

 

[Edit] My main issue tonally with the Waterstone was that when plugging into any singular amp/stomp, this was shaping everything that the bass was outputting.  The lows might be nice, but the octaves were nearly always quite nasty (and vice versa).  The XB seemingly resolves this, in wrestling some tonal control out of the instrument, albeit out of one stomp.

Edited August 2 by NancyJohnson

[Wolverinebass]

1 hour ago, NancyJohnson said:

 

Or just order one from Sweetwater and get your brother in law to bring it home from a business trip in Texas.

Of course, had your brother in law been using a slightly bigger suitcase, he could have subsidised his trip by bringing another XB driver back from Texas for an X-Men sideburned bass player who would happily pay for his time and physiotherapy after carrying back a heavier suitcase. Ha!

[Wolverinebass]

10 hours ago, Sean said:

I've got an HX Stomp. I'll get investigating. 

Thanks for the steer. 

@Sean I've done plenty of parallel amp path patches on the stomp. Some for 4, some for 8 and some for 12 string. Some are stereo for Alembics and my Grainger Hades though they do still work in mono as well.

 

Happy to share if you wish.

[Sean]

3 minutes ago, Wolverinebass said:

@Sean I've done plenty of parallel amp path patches on the stomp. Some for 4, some for 8 and some for 12 string. Some are stereo for Alembics and my Grainger Hades though they do still work in mono as well.

 

Happy to share if you wish.

That would be fantastic, thank you. 

Shall I pm you an email?

 

I can learn a lot about signal paths with just a 4 but think that I'll inevitably end up buying an off the shelf, preferably 2nd hand 12 to fill the gap before a custom build is ready. 

[Sean]

On 01/08/2025 at 10:27, Sean said:

I've now put out enquiries to Waghorn (Bristol), Grainger (LE15), and Shuker (Hope Valley) as UK builders that are easy to visit. The Brookes basses are stunning and I have a response from Rob. I'm not rushing into this, just going through all the options before pushing the button. 

Waghorn lead time = 36 months. 

Rob's is very attractive. 

 

3cyears is just too far beyond my planning horizon.

 

Grainger and Jon yet to respond but they've not had the enquiries long.  

 

 

[Wolverinebass]

2 hours ago, Sean said:

That would be fantastic, thank you. 

Shall I pm you an email?

 

I can learn a lot about signal paths with just a 4 but think that I'll inevitably end up buying an off the shelf, preferably 2nd hand 12 to fill the gap before a custom build is ready. 

Please feel free to and I'll send some settings over. No problem my dear boy.

 

If I were going off the shelf I'd be getting a Schecter Dug. They're really good and I did almost get one myself. I eventually realised, having a Hamer, why should I get another one?!!

 

As regards the wait times. I remember Waghorn was reasonably long when I asked them too. It wasn't 3 years though. Maybe 18 months to 2 years. It was a while ago.

 

As regards Grainger, my Hades took 3 years to get. However, most of that encompassed covid and it's aftermath where both Darren and Gavin were ill for some time consecutively as were members of their respective families, so there was a great deal of time where nothing happened for the obvious illness and social distancing reasons. It's worth saying I specifically measured neck profiles and asked for circuit wiring they'd never done before and they did it flawlessly. Its also worth noting, they're the only people who have ever managed to set up a bass almost to where I have it which is so stupidly low action a lot of people struggle to play them.

 

Any one of Brookes, Waghorn, Shuker or Grainger will do you an amazing instrument. It's just down to what you want. 

[itu]

@Basvarken: what's the order of the strings? If I remember an old article right, playing with a pick or fingers defies the order. Is this true? With pick the downstroke hits the lowest first, and with fingers it's the other way around, yes/no? 

[Basvarken]

10 minutes ago, itu said:

@Basvarken: what's the order of the strings? If I remember an old article right, playing with a pick or fingers defies the order. Is this true? With pick the downstroke hits the lowest first, and with fingers it's the other way around, yes/no? 

It's really a matter of personal preference.
Most 12-string players prefer the octave strings above the bass strings. This has become the standard over time.
When playing downstrokes with a pick, you hit the octave strings first.
But not a lot of players use only downstrokes when playing with a pick.

 

And there are some players who prefer it the other way around; the octave string below the bass string. It is called reversed triplets.
When you play finger style you'd hit the octave string first. But the difference is hardly noticeable. Since you really hit all three strings at once.





The biggest difference you'll notice between the two is actually on your fretting hand.
Pressing three strings down with your finger feels quite different when they are reversed.


 

[warwickhunt]

2 hours ago, Basvarken said:

The biggest difference you'll notice between the two is actually on your fretting hand.
Pressing three strings down with your finger feels quite different when they are reversed.

 

This ^^^

 

I've owned a couple of 12's and the Musicvox I had was reversed... it was truly awkward/uncomfortable to play.

[crazycloud]

As someone who's never played a 12, the order of the strings was something I'd never considered, either tonally or playing feel. Interesting, thanks guys.

 

Sidebar comment: I'd love a 12 with a 6x2 arrangement.

[warwickhunt]

2 hours ago, crazycloud said:

As someone who's never played a 12, the order of the strings was something I'd never considered, either tonally or playing feel. Interesting, thanks guys.

 

Sidebar comment: I'd love a 12 with a 6x2 arrangement.

 

Imagine placing the pad of your finger on the 'bass' string; to play the octave strings (which are much thinner) you need to apply sufficient pressure past the point of contact with the bass string to get the octave strings to fret.  When the octave strings are below the bass string you need to rotate your finger slightly in/under toward by bending your knuckle joint down, whereas if the octave strings are above, you roll your finger tip over the bass string a little... much more natural to do the latter.  

 

It's something which you never need to think about if you've ever played a 12 string acoustic guitar because the string thickness in pairs is the same or very similar.

[crazycloud]

@warwickhunt

I get what you're saying about the different ways of fingering, I'd simply never considered it.

[Woodinblack]

6 hours ago, crazycloud said:

Sidebar comment: I'd love a 12 with a 6x2 arrangement.

 

Thats been covered years ago by burns

 

http://burnsguitars.com/apachedoublesix.php - thats the guitar, there is a bass (or was years ago), we talked about it somewhere on bc a few weeks ago

 

ah here

 

[crazycloud]

11 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

we talked about it somewhere on bc a few weeks ago

I saw the thread, but it's not really what I'd like. Something more like a standard 34" bass with more conventional spacing. I already have a couple of 30" 6 string basses, such as the SRC6 in my avatar. Over the years, I've seen a couple of boutiques and even a CS Warwick (IIRC) and maybe an Alembic, nothing else. Closest 'conventional' bass is the 10 string Deans.

Edited August 3 by crazycloud

[Sean]

@warwickhunt what have you got incoming? 

And what's your stage rig? How are you amping it?

[warwickhunt]

50 minutes ago, Sean said:

@warwickhunt what have you got incoming? 

And what's your stage rig? How are you amping it?

 

Stage rig - preamp pedal(s) into IEM!  

 

I've owned 8 and 12 string basses and had all of the usual debates and trials re. how to amplify and tbh as soon as you start putting it through PA systems without your own engineer, it's bordering on being a waste of time (IMHO).  On stage I've run bi-amp systems with active crossovers etc. I've also run a guitar rig AND a bass rig from an active crossover but when you are standing 'on stage' you are then looking at having to wear ear plugs/protection and you have the guitarist(s), drums etc to mush up the sound; what's the point of having all of this lovely crossed over/split EQ'd independently tone and it sounds no different to a well EQ'd mono signal?  I certainly didn't hear any benefit and as soon as you start talking to in-house engineers about bi-amped sounds etc. most of them have very little interest especially if you are on multi-band gigs.  Sorry but this is just my experience; it'll be different if you are the band paying big wages with control over big concert rigs (see Cheap Trick/Kings X/Pearl Jam).  

[Sean]

@warwickhuntI'd love to see Cheat Trick. Any plans to wander down to the South West or Midlands?

[warwickhunt]

6 minutes ago, Sean said:

@warwickhuntI'd love to see Cheat Trick. Any plans to wander down to the South West or Midlands?

 

Furthest South for us at present is Sutton-in-Ashfield... not very South or West.  LOL

 

[tauzero]

On 03/08/2025 at 23:02, crazycloud said:

I saw the thread, but it's not really what I'd like. Something more like a standard 34" bass with more conventional spacing. I already have a couple of 30" 6 string basses, such as the SRC6 in my avatar. Over the years, I've seen a couple of boutiques and even a CS Warwick (IIRC) and maybe an Alembic, nothing else. Closest 'conventional' bass is the 10 string Deans.

 

I was going to mention the 10-string Dean Edge Hammer. I have one - the neck is rather on the thick side but it's not bad.

[Sean]

There has been a development 🤠

I'm going to keep it under wraps until 15th September 🤐. Just because I'm un poco supersticioso 🤫

[warwickhunt]

So how will you now amplify your Hamer @Sean?    

 

I know you've mentioned bi-amp (from an HX Stomp was it?) and @Wolverinebass has been kindly offering advice.

[Sean]

1 hour ago, warwickhunt said:

So how will you now amplify your Hamer @Sean?    

 

I know you've mentioned bi-amp (from an HX Stomp was it?) and @Wolverinebass has been kindly offering advice.

The patches that Andy shared have been a great starting point for me. TBH I was a bit daunted at first but once I'd loaded the patches and had a look, it all made perfect sense and I started editing them to experiment. Until yesterday, I just had conventional basses to test the patches but it gives a good flavour. 

 

I'm going to try a few different methods of amping just to see the differences, not only in sound but in level of effort required to get there.

 

1. HX Stomp bi-amping patches. I'm going to try to mimic the TP set up by sending highs to an Orange guitar amp/cab set up and lows to various iterations of bass amp/cab. The HX will then go in the input of a GK head and out of an FRFR cab.

 

1b. Same as above but into the effects return to see how that goes. Effectively using the GK as a power amp. 

 

I think that 1/1b is going to be the best bang for buck as far as effort put in and how easy it'll be, portability is also a consideration. Physically it's no more kit than normal. 

 

2. Full TP analogue mode: Bass Rig plus guitar rig with a line splitter pedal. Boss LS2, I think? I need to borrow something. Split the signal with one going to my MJW 200 (it's like a Matamp/Orange 200) and the FRFR cab and the other going through a Nobel distortion into my Marshal 2554 1x12 combo. I'm going to have to get creative with the EQ knobs on the valve heads to see what works. I haven't got any EQ pedals but could rig something up with the HX Stomp. 

 

I think this is going to be the best sound or at least give the best experience. It's extra kit, it means carrying an extra 1x12 heavy valve guitar combo (bought new by me from Wally McGill @ Rock City in 1988 and still has the hand-written receipt!). 

 

3. Using my current gig rig (various GK heads into FRFR cabs) but getting clever with the Origin Effects DCX Bass LF and HF settings. I currently use the DCX to make my Spectors even more sparkly/gritty but these pedals are capable of a lot more and I need to have a deeper dive. 

 

This would be the ultimate solution as I could then swap between 4-string Spectors to the Hamer for different songs and not have to adapt much kit from what I'm used to gigging with. 

 

There's also other options of using the HX Stomp to do the guitar combo sound and using the physical rig to do the low frequencies. There's lots of options but I'll go with these three for now. 

 

I think if, like you, I was playing a whole set with a 12 and it was a key part of the show, I'd be more willing to take extra kit if it delivered the goods.

 

That's the plan for now, I'm sure it'll evolve. I'd be very grateful for any steers or insight from experience too. 

 

I'll sort the B12L today and get busy with amps and cabs etc tomorrow. 

Edited 10 hours ago by Sean

[warwickhunt]

On a personal level my 'attempts' to do the 12 string justice have thrown up more questions than answers!  LOL

 

If you are in a position whereby you have TOTAL control of the FOH sound then you can go the full Tom P route and use the amplifiers/cabs of choice (roadies will transport them) and you can have DI's or mic'd cabs to suit, with an engineer who works for YOU and will mix it as you want.

 

However...

 

That is rarely the case for most of us and transporting gear is a consideration, as is who is in charge of your live sound and how much say have you really got?  Even if you are hiring in or using an in-house engineer paid to make you sound good, sometimes (nearly always) they know what a bass should sound like (not a 12er) but you are pretty much on the lowest rung of the priority ladder and mic'ing / DI'ing multiple sources and mixing to your desired end result.  I've come to the conclusion if you can get the best mono signal from whatever sources you need (pedals, splitters, Helix etc) and you can present a premixed feed to an engineer you're more likely to get close to what you want.  

 

I did a gig where I had a split signal (1 feed bass to bass amp/cab, 2 feed top end to a guitar combo) and despite my clear instructions it was apparent that during the first song the top end was muted and the rest of the gig was done with my 12 string (everything below 500hz) going through the PA with a bit of an indistinct tone.  Conversely, I did do a multiband line up and the engineer bluntly asked if my bass was meant to sound like that (bit of dirt on the higher frequency split of the 12er) and when I said 'Yes', he just left it as was... result.  

 

Slightly different scenario if it is your backline sound that you are sculpting which will either be just for your benefit (in which case see above re FOH) or you are in a small enough venue that your backline is carrying the bass to the room.  

 

I'm a new advocate of the HX Stomp and I have it set up for some global EQ at the start > active split > 1st path is below 500hz and is processed very little other than an amp (no cab) / 2nd path above 500hz is passed through an OD set quite subtle (grit rather than distortion) > these paths are then blended at a vol/level to suit.  I was considering sending path 1 to a separate output than path 2 which could be sent to 2 power amps/cabs/combos OR the 2 paths sent to 2 desk inputs... but would the engineer blend to 'my' liking?  Maybe best to just give engineers a premixed signal and a 2nd premixed signal could be sent full range to a bass rig for on stage monitoring.

 

As I say, more questions than answers!  LOL

 

 

 

 

 

[Sean]

52 minutes ago, warwickhunt said:

Maybe best to just give engineers a premixed signal and a 2nd premixed signal could be sent full range to a bass rig for on stage monitoring.

 

My plans changed earlier and I replaced the battery box in the Hamer. It had green corrosion on the copper connectors and wasn’t right and I just happened to have an identical new one in my spares. It’s 100% now.

 

I’ve already had a mess around with the HX Stomp today. What you say above is what my first thoughts are after running a few different iterations of bi-amping patches. If you give the sound engineer a premixed signal then he should expect to treat you like he does the keys player or the backing track; just adjust for the ambient rather than trying to get the bass sound that is in his head. I think more sound engineers are getting used to modelling and going that way. It makes life easier for them. 

 

The patch I’ve done this morning uses that same split at 500hz. Mandarin 80 for the highs with 412 Mandarin Cab and Mandarin Bass 200 for the lows with the 6x10 Cali Power. 

 

Then I’ve saved another patch that is just into the G Cougar 800 with 6x10 Cali Power and as good as it is, it’s not bi-amped and doesn’t have anywhere near the same impact. 

 

I’m happy to share these patches as starting points if anyone wants them. 

 

One question on the HX Stomp. Do I need to carry one of those jack to XLR DI boxes to give the man my HX stomp out?  So, as in HX Stomp “Send” (front RHS) to Behringer DI100 type of box? 

 

 

 

 

 

[warwickhunt]

18 minutes ago, Sean said:

The patch I’ve done this morning uses that same split at 500hz. Mandarin 80 for the highs with 412 Mandarin Cab and Mandarin Bass 200 for the lows with the 6x10 Cali Power. 

 

Then I’ve saved another patch that is just into the G Cougar 800 with 6x10 Cali Power and as good as it is, it’s not bi-amped and doesn’t have anywhere near the same impact. 

 

I’m happy to share these patches as starting points if anyone wants them. 

 

One question on the HX Stomp. Do I need to carry one of those jack to XLR DI boxes to give the man my HX stomp out?  So, as in HX Stomp “Send” (front RHS) to Behringer DI100 type of box? 

 

Have a listen to a couple of the clean guitar amp sounds (sans cab or replace in a amp/cab mix), I think it is Placater (whatever that is) that worked for one of my set ups (still creating and comparing).  

 

I also like the sound of the GK800 and I'm using it in on various other set ups; oddly I'm not so keen on many of the big bass cab models, again I like some of the guitar cab tones or possibly the Epi 112.

 

re. DI from Stomp - I carry a TRS > male XLR for going out to stage boxes but tbh most live engineers can sort that easy enough.

Edited 6 hours ago by warwickhunt