Black Crows Hard to Handle. I have been playing it wrong all these years.

[dave_bass5]

6 minutes ago, tauzero said:

 

But for me to play it the right way, I'd also have to train the guitarist to play it the right way. And I think it sounds fine as it is.

Maybe if the guitarist  knew its wrong he might have enough self respect to want to play it correctly? 

[Misdee]

1 hour ago, Terry M. said:

A semitone won't alter the moon's orbit but I thought it was an interesting observation nonetheless 🤭

I definitely prefer the A over the G#.

Either will work over a dominant 7th, but the G# emphasises the major tonality.

[Misdee]

10 hours ago, Terry M. said:

A semitone won't alter the moon's orbit but I thought it was an interesting observation nonetheless 🤭

I definitely prefer the A over the G#.

Either will work over a dominant 7th, but the G# emphasises the major tonality.

 

(Listen to me!  Dominant 7th , major tonality? I've watched a few bass tutorials on YouTube, now I'm starting to believe my own publicity and getting ideas above my station😄. If I get myself a six string bass and a looper you have my permission to shoot me.)

Edited 9 hours ago by Misdee

[Geek99]

7 hours ago, dave_bass5 said:

Maybe if the guitarist  knew its wrong he might have enough self respect to want to play it correctly? 

Huh? A guitard? You know how no one has ever domesticated a zebra … 

[Dan Earp]

10 hours ago, dave_bass5 said:

Not to them, but some of us might take a bit of pride in playing something the correct way, especially if the idea is to cover a certain version. Otherwise it’s becomes ‘our version’, which as we all know is musician speak for ‘couldn’t be bothered to learn it properly’  😂

 

 

 

Interesting. I actually aim to do our version, rather than exactly as a recording. The singer doesn’t sound like the original singer so why on earth should the band beat itself up over being exactly as a version. Which one is ‘right’? I learn the original and then do my thing, in this case in the verses as someone else said earlier. Lots of covers aren’t the same as the original, think skunk anansie, Eva Cassidy. That’s musicianship I envy….

as a punter I do sometimes wonder why don’t some players play well, within their competence, and use their musicianship rather than be a slave to a particular version. I’d rather the audience react positively to the groove than say that’s a good cover but the singers no Freddie, Mick Jagger or whoever else you want to name. 
So I refute ‘couldn’t bother to learn it properly’ and would replace it with play within your musical competence. 
I come from this view as a pianist who accompanies as well as a bass player. No way can I reproduce famous song accompaniments exactly. Should I give up because I can’t reproduce a full band?

[Terry M.]

14 minutes ago, Dan Earp said:

Interesting. I actually aim to do our version, rather than exactly as a recording. The singer doesn’t sound like the original singer so why on earth should the band beat itself up over being exactly as a version. Which one is ‘right’? I learn the original and then do my thing, in this case in the verses as someone else said earlier. Lots of covers aren’t the same as the original, think skunk anansie, Eva Cassidy. That’s musicianship I envy….

as a punter I do sometimes wonder why don’t some players play well, within their competence, and use their musicianship rather than be a slave to a particular version. I’d rather the audience react positively to the groove than say that’s a good cover but the singers no Freddie, Mick Jagger or whoever else you want to name. 
So I refute ‘couldn’t bother to learn it properly’ and would replace it with play within your musical competence. 
I come from this view as a pianist who accompanies as well as a bass player. No way can I reproduce famous song accompaniments exactly. Should I give up because I can’t reproduce a full band?

I have to say you've made some excellent points here. I will dare to suggest that in some cases our own interpretations can surpass the original depending on who's ears are receiving it. I've heard too many cover versions that I prefer over the original. On the topic of this thread a semitone is really not going to "break" anything even though I understand the principle of the conversation.

[dave_bass5]

Wow, the soapboxes came out faster than usual for a BC thread 😂

Maybe i should have put this in off topic 😎

[Geek99]

3 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

Wow, the soapboxes came out faster than usual for a BC thread 😂

Maybe i should have put this in off topic 😎

There are two different schools of thought. I take the view that I’m there to make people listening happy, either tgey or a landlord are paying. My personal level of perfectionism takes a back seat. However l also get the “get it exactly right” mentality 

[Dan Dare]

11 hours ago, Geek99 said:

As long as the crowd are dancing/cheering/singing along/not killing each other, does it matter ?

 

Of course.

[dave_bass5]

9 minutes ago, Geek99 said:

There are two different schools of thought. I take the view that I’m there to make people listening happy, either tgey or a landlord are paying. My personal level of perfectionism takes a back seat. However l also get the “get it exactly right” mentality 

Im not judging anyone at all, play what you like. I try and get it correct but dont aways manage it. I even said in my first post that ive always played it wrong (wrong to how i should play it) and no one ever noticed. 

 

It’s just that i made this thread just to point out how this has been missed for decades by those that teach this song etc, not to tell everyone how to play it. 

[Terry M.]

51 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

Im not judging anyone at all, play what you like. I try and get it correct but dont aways manage it. I even said in my first post that ive always played it wrong (wrong to how i should play it) and no one ever noticed. 

 

It’s just that i made this thread just to point out how this has been missed for decades by those that teach this song etc, not to tell everyone how to play it. 

At no point did you come off as being judgemental. I thought this thread was a good exercise in highlighting what we play and think we hear vs what is actually being played. Something every musician can relate to ☺️

[Al Krow]

Sometimes it's only the band who notice their bandmates getting it right, but their smile in recognition is for me reward in itself. Often the audience actually also does notice, without necessarily fully knowing why?

 

Sure we've all "flattened" / simplified bass lines to get them good enough for a gig, maybe due to a lack of time or perhaps technical ability and never return to work on them further. But when they are done properly they can often give a song a lift.

 

A simple example: the iconic riff in John McVie's Go your own way bassline - I'd been guilty of leaving that out for far too long and playing sonething that fitted. But playing McVie's line as he intended it, has definitely added something to both the band sound and my enjoyment of playing that song.

 

So, if you want to invest the time in nailing a bass line, Dave, go for it mate!

Edited 2 hours ago by Al Krow

[Terry M.]

14 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Sometimes it's only the band who notice their bandmates getting it right, but their smile in recognition is for me reward in itself. Often the audience actually also does notice, without necessarily fully knowing why?

 

Sure we've all "flattened" / simplified bass lines to get them good enough for a gig, maybe due to a lack of time or perhsps technical ability and never return to work on them further. But when they are done properly they can often give a song a lift.

 

A simple example: the iconic riff in John McVie's Go your own way bassline - I'd been guilty of leaving that out for far too long and playing sonething that fitted. But playing McVie's line as he intended it, has definitely added something to both the band sound and my enjoyment of playing that song.

 

So, if you want to invest the time in nailing a bass line, Dave, go for it mate!

I'm not disagreeing with any of this (apart from maybe what the audience notices) but there's also a ton of enjoyment to be had reworking basslines (entire songs even) and putting an individual stamp on it and making it your own.

[dave_bass5]

Its crazy. Im seeing people loose sleep over how my milliseconds their compressor has dialled in for attack, how many string windings they have on the A string, how straight the neck is etc because the audience will probably walk out if any of that isn't set right, , and yet dont care less if they play the wrong notes in a song 😀

 

Again, this thread wasn't about the fact that you should play it exactly, but I do find it satisfying when I know it's as close as I can get it. 

 

Al. You left out the most iconic bit of that song? How and why did you come to that decicison? Not judging, just curious.

 

 

 

[Al Krow]

10 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

Al. You left out the most iconic bit of that song? How and why did you come to that decision? Not judging, just curious.

 

Not a decision as such. Many years back when I first started playing it with a previous covers band, we were struggling to get tight on coming in together at the start with acoustic guitar coming in on the up beat ahead of everyone else, so that's what we focussed on sorting. The simplified bass part I played fitted, was certainly "good enough" in terms of audience reception to our song - it was always about the guitar solo at the end for them - and no one said anything. That changed when the singer in my current band last year mentioned that she'd heard a really sweet bass riff on that song. It did then actually take a fair bit of effort to unlearn the "wrong" bass line!

 

I think it's only since I've been working with a semi-pro crew that I've been paying closer attention to some of the actual bass lines and realising just how much better many of them were than the simplified versions I'd been playing! Another easy example would be Killers "Somebody told me" - for me that loses a lot when the bass line is flattened, which I've often heard. With that one, I made sure to learn that one properly from the off! 

[Lozz196]

37 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

Its crazy. Im seeing people loose sleep over how my milliseconds their compressor has dialled in for attack, how many string windings they have on the A string, how straight the neck is etc because the audience will probably walk out if any of that isn't set right, , and yet dont care less if they play the wrong notes in a song 😀

 

 

 

 

 

I’m in agreement Dave, if I can I play the song exactly, if there’s no way of working it out - and if YouTube doesn’t have it - then at that point I’ll settle for what I think it is. But I won’t add in stuff that wasn’t there, for me being as near to the original is the all important factor. 

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, Terry M. said:

I'm not disagreeing with any of this (apart from maybe what the audience notices) but there's also a ton of enjoyment to be had reworking basslines (entire songs even) and putting an individual stamp on it and making it your own.

 

For sure! Now these guys do "making it their own" brilliantly!

 

 

Edited 5 hours ago by Al Krow

[Dan Dare]

3 hours ago, Terry M. said:

a ton of enjoyment to be had reworking basslines (entire songs even) and putting an individual stamp on it and making it your own.

 

As long as "making it your own" isn't code for "can't be bothered to get it right, so I'll wing it".

[Terry M.]

20 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

 

As long as "making it your own" isn't code for "can't be bothered to get it right, so I'll wing it".

No it means literally that. Some projects avoid exact interpretations and entertain artistic freedom. Reworking isn't the same as "can't be bothered"

Edited 3 hours ago by Terry M.

[Dan Dare]

1 minute ago, Terry M. said:

Some projects avoid exact interpretations and entertain artistic freedom.

 

Right on, man.

[Geek99]

29 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

 

As long as "making it your own" isn't code for "can't be bothered to get it right, so I'll wing it".

Personally I don’t think it matters much as long as you and any audience are enjoying. 
playing an instrument and with other people is supposed to be fun. It’s what I do to get away from my working day where I have to conform- if I substitute a verse pattern for a chorus pattern because I feel like it, or I make a mistake, no fairies will die. 

[peteb]

16 hours ago, dave_bass5 said:

Not to them, but some of us might take a bit of pride in playing something the correct way, especially if the idea is to cover a certain version. Otherwise it’s becomes ‘our version’, which as we all know is musician speak for ‘couldn’t be bothered to learn it properly’  😂

 

 

 

 

I agree with that approach if you are trying to replicate a Jamerson, Billy Sheehan or Geddy Lee part. For something like the Black Crowes (who I love BTW), I would be aiming to get the feel right, rather than playing it note for note. 

 

[Al Krow]

Kinda reminds me of discussions I've had with bandmates and deps around playing a part that fits the song vs playing the bass line / guitar riff / drum pattern of the song.

 

Must admit I really appreciate working with drummers who include the fills and nuances of particular songs we cover vs simply bashing out a rhythm and tempo that fits the song. Maybe that's equivalent to us just playing the root notes?

 

Sure it can be "fun" to keep things simple, and horses for courses, if that is all we want to be doing with our music - getting out and gigging can be massively fulfilling in itself! But equally if we don't have to settle for less, then why not aim to be the best musicians we can? And I'm saying that knowing I've got a very long way to go...  

[peteb]

47 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Kinda reminds me of discussions I've had with bandmates and deps around playing a part that fits the song vs playing the bass line / guitar riff / drum pattern of the song.

 

Must admit I really appreciate working with drummers who include the fills and nuances of particular songs we cover vs simply bashing out a rhythm and tempo that fits the song. Maybe that's equivalent to us just playing the root notes?

 

Sure it can be "fun" to keep things simple, and horses for courses, if that is all we want to be doing with our music - getting out and gigging can be massively fulfilling in itself! But equally if we don't have to settle for less, then why not aim to be the best musicians we can? And I'm saying that knowing I've got a very long way to go...  

 

It depends what you are doing and what your band is about. 

 

Are you playing covers of tracks where the performance is more important than the song? If I'm playing something like Hot For Teacher, I want the guitarist for nail EVH's guitar part note for note. Same thing for a Rush tribute, the performance is key, so play it exactly like the record or don't bother. It's a bit different covering many other types of bands, where the bass player(s) might have developed / changed the parts over the years, or never played the same thing twice. Then you have to get the feel and spirit of the original, rather than just play the part as the record. 

 

Of course, it also depends whether you are playing the song, or covering the a particular version of the song. Remember that often keeping it simple is the best option and not settling for less at all. The thing is that you should be playing a simple part by choice, not because you can't play anything different! 

 

Edited 1 hour ago by peteb