Fretboard knowledge

[AM1]

Yo

Bit of a strange one, in that I could carry on not doing much fretboard study and play by ear or I could fix this if I knew how to learn the fretboard properly.

Pretty much most of the time, in a band rehearsal/gig context, I don't know what notes I'm playing (unless I count up the strings and work it out) - I just play by ear.

I get through studio and gig stuff mainly by using skeleton basslines that I've already constructed (mainly by ear) but then improvising fills, from basic pentatonic and chromatic scales and arpeggios.

But I'm getting restricted in terms of playing very similar patterns/fills/intervals a lot of the time - I can only put this down to lack of fretboard knowledge. I seem to be failing on sorting out fundamentals, surely this cannot be good!

It seems fairly ridiculous to be getting through full gigs with absolutely no idea most of the time, what notes I am playing.

So my question - do you always know, even when impro'ing, every single note you play?

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

[quote name='AM1' post='497019' date='May 25 2009, 01:27 AM']So my question - do you always know, even when impro'ing, every single note you play?[/quote]
Nope
Also I don't consciously think 'now I have to put my foot down on the clutch' when I'm driving.
Knowing what you're doing is overrated

[AM1]

[quote name='Jean-Luc Pickguard' post='497021' date='May 25 2009, 01:33 AM']Nope
Also I don't consciously think 'now I have to put my foot down on the clutch' when I'm driving.
Knowing what you're doing is overrated [/quote]

Are you saying that there are no benefits in learning the fretboard inside out and ear playing is sufficient for real time stuff?

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

[quote name='AM1' post='497026' date='May 25 2009, 02:00 AM']Are you saying that there are no benefits in learning the fretboard inside out and ear playing is sufficient for real time stuff?[/quote]
No

I mean that when playing a line I've practiced or when improvising I don't consciously think 'I've just played an A, the next note is a C and then there's a G'

I'm sure there are benefits to knowing the fretboard inside out and if I could be bothered I'd probably make an effort to improve my own ability to point to any note on demand.

Did you miss the 'wink' smiley indicating that the last line was not to be taken seriously?

[AM1]

[quote name='Jean-Luc Pickguard' post='497032' date='May 25 2009, 03:08 AM']No

I mean that when playing a line I've practiced or when improvising I don't consciously think 'I've just played an A, the next note is a C and then there's a G'

I'm sure there are benefits to knowing the fretboard inside out and if I could be bothered I'd probably make an effort to improve my own ability to point to any note on demand.

Did you miss the 'wink' smiley indicating that the last line was not to be taken seriously?[/quote]

Hi

But when improvising, I think if you know the notes on the fretboard, you know where you're going next or can take a different direction rather than using practiced lines or patterns. This is where I am lacking versatility. For example, if I would want to throw in certain notes (not necessarily roots or even predictable intervals) over a relatively complex guitar chord sequence...then if I know the names of the chords being played and what the notes are on my fretboard, it would be easier in some instances than learning by ear or messing about working out the note names on the fretboard.

PS I saw the smiley but I can't read your mind!

I am just interested to hear the logic from both sides of the fence - i.e. players that don't know the notes they play and those who know every single note. I am not saying one approach is better than the other, just trying to work out ways to remove the "limitations" that are appearing in my playing.

Cheers
AM

Edited May 25, 2009 by AM1

[Buzz]

I'd say there is something to knowing the fretboard quite well, but in all honesty, you only have to learn upto the 12th fret (octave) and know the shortcuts to where the notes repeat, eg, 7th fret on the E string is a B, which is also the 2nd on A, 9th fret on D and the 4th on the G.

Or E is open on the E string, 12th on E, 7th on A, 2nd on D and 9th on G etc.

Once you know the shortcuts, the fretboard becomes quite easy to work and understand because those shortcuts also work backwards.

It also means you can follow the guitarist should they shout out chords, you get told it's a say C chord, then go to the root and work from there.

Edited May 25, 2009 by Buzz

[AM1]

[quote name='Buzz' post='497039' date='May 25 2009, 03:23 AM']I'd say there is something to knowing the fretboard quite well, but in all honesty, you only have to learn upto the 12th fret (octave) and know the shortcuts to where the notes repeat, eg, 7th fret on the E string is a B, which is also the 2nd on A, 9th fret on D and the 4th on the G.

Or E is open on the E string, 12th on E, 7th on A, 2nd on D and 9th on G etc.

Once you know the shortcuts, the fretboard becomes quite easy to work and understand because those shortcuts also work backwards.

It also means you can follow the guitarist should they shout out chords, you get told it's a say C chord, then go to the root and work from there.[/quote]

Hi, I understand those shortcuts but I still have to work out when I hit a fret, what note I am playing, i.e. I don't instinctively know them. This just seems bizarre. If I want to play certain notes, surely I should know them immediately, before I've even played them, without having to piss about working out what they are.

Open string notes and their octaves on the 12th fret are easy as is the 2 across, two up, octave - but learning major and minor intervals on the fretboard is the mathematical approach, it doesn't really help in knowing what notes I'm playing, that approach means I am always having to work out from intervals, what notes I am playing - surely I should know the notes on the fretboard without having to work out when I'm playing, what I'm actually playing.

[Buzz]

Ah, but that's the point, knowing how to work them out means you can learn them quickly. I've worked the first 5 frets out across all the strings quite easily by the above method, you work it out and commit them to memory, it eventually sticks and you can just go "hmm, B, 2nd fret A string" etc without thinking about it.

Edited May 25, 2009 by Buzz

[YouMa]

Have you got any footage of your gigs AM1,it might be easier to analyse what you are doing this way and help you out with your technique.I know what notes im playing just from playing so long and being familiar with a guitars neck,when i play i tend to just know what a note within a mode or scale will sound like,i think its just practice really.Sorry i cant be more help.

[62P-Bass]

I find it more useful to think about the number of the note in relation to the chord/key, rather than the actual note name. As time goes on you get better at understanding what effect each interval has against the chord, which will be the same regardless of key. This should help you to improvise as you will start to know in advance what each note is going to sound like in that context. Also, because of the layout of the bass fretboard and string tuning, the fingerings will always be the same which is a big advantage.

Of course you do need to know the names of the notes as well as this is how we communicate with other musicians and read chord charts etc.

Check out Gary Willis' book Ear Training for Guitar and Bass. He gets you to associate the sound of each interval with a fingering, as well as knowing what it's called. This means that you have a more direct link with what you hear and how it would be played.

Andrew

[TimR]

I'd strongly agree with interval training.

Learn the first 5 frets on E,A and D as a minimum. Then learn the first 5 on the G string. Then learn up to 7 on all 4. It doesn't take long if you break it into chunks. Learn the rest up to 12 in small chunks, but once you have the first 7 the others will be more obvious.

It is not necessary to know what you are playing backwards as you play it. ie As long as you play the interval you don't need to know what the note name is on the fly. You will at some stage need to tell someone what note you are playing and also be able to pick it out, as you say, when the sheet music/chord chart/other musician asks for it.

When reading music I wonder how many people read the interval and how many decipher the notes to their names. If I'm playing in C and see part of a C scale, I'll recognise it and play the scale rather than think "Oh Yes, CDEFG... now where are those notes on my bass." I know where all the Cs are and the rest are just intervals up.

[6stringbassist]

[quote name='AM1' post='497019' date='May 25 2009, 01:27 AM']So my question - do you always know, even when impro'ing, every single note you play?[/quote]

Yes, well I know every note I play, kind of like talking in as much as the words just come out without me thinking. It really doesn't take very long to learn the notes on a fretboard. When you look at them you see that they follow a repeating pattern. I play a 6 and knowing what I know I already knew I knew what the 'new' notes were when I switched from playing a 5 string.

So yes I know what every note is that I play, and I know in what context I'm playing it, ie how it relates to the chord or key signature that I'm playing over.

I don't really see how you can play and not know what notes you're playing.

Edited May 25, 2009 by 6stringbassist

[Wylie]

[quote name='62P-Bass' post='497192' date='May 25 2009, 10:57 AM']I find it more useful to think about the number of the note in relation to the chord/key, rather than the actual note name. As time goes on you get better at understanding what effect each interval has against the chord, which will be the same regardless of key. This should help you to improvise as you will start to know in advance what each note is going to sound like in that context. Also, because of the layout of the bass fretboard and string tuning, the fingerings will always be the same which is a big advantage.


Andrew[/quote]


I agree with this. Knowing the scale degrees is invaluable because you begin to see what chords are likely to occur within a particular key, and if you know which of those degrees is major and which minor (for example), you can quickly find the root of your chord and figure out the pattern you want to follow. It's all related (this is not news, I know ), and it is a LOT easier to figure out and use if you learn the notes, which in turn is made a lot easier because, as Andrew said, you are doing things [i]in context[/i], not just looking at notes scattered over a board. For me, learning the notes, practicing scales, and finding the triads has opened up my playing immeasurably. It's just a matter of doing it every day, a bit at a time. I guess if I felt I could play better going strictly by ear, I wouldn't bother with doing things more systematically; but for me, this is what works.

[dlloyd]

[quote name='AM1' post='497019' date='May 25 2009, 01:27 AM']So my question - do you always know, even when impro'ing, every single note you play?[/quote]

Yes and no.

I know what note I'm playing, and could tell you its name, scale degree, relationship to the root, etc., but I don't actually [i]think[/i] about it when I'm playing.

Even when I'm reading I'm not thinking about the names of the notes. Sure, I know what their name is, but I bypass thinking about what it is.

If that makes any sense!

[Golchen]

You think a 4 string bass is hard? try memorising the 300 note positions on my Chapman stick!

I'm crap on theory, I don't know fretboards very well at all but I can make music on guitars and basses. I do know all the notes instantly on a piano though. I wish I could memorise all the notes on guitar/bass, but after many years it just hasn't happened.

[dlloyd]

[quote name='Golchen' post='497271' date='May 25 2009, 01:46 PM']I'm crap on theory, I don't know fretboards very well at all but I can make music on guitars and basses. I do know all the notes instantly on a piano though. I wish I could memorise all the notes on guitar/bass, but after many years it just hasn't happened.[/quote]

It's a lot easier if you force yourself to read.

I get a bit fuzzy on the reading further up the fretboard. Jeff Berlin reckons trombone music is great for practicing reading on electric bass and, in this case, what he says makes sense. It might be worth going through the ABRSM syllabus for trombone and working your way through some of the earlier grades.

[url="http://www.abrsm.org/resources/tromboneSyllabusComplete08.pdf"]http://www.abrsm.org/resources/tromboneSyl...sComplete08.pdf[/url]

[AM1]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='497293' date='May 25 2009, 02:38 PM']It's a lot easier if you force yourself to read.

I get a bit fuzzy on the reading further up the fretboard. Jeff Berlin reckons trombone music is great for practicing reading on electric bass and, in this case, what he says makes sense. It might be worth going through the ABRSM syllabus for trombone and working your way through some of the earlier grades.

[url="http://www.abrsm.org/resources/tromboneSyllabusComplete08.pdf"]http://www.abrsm.org/resources/tromboneSyl...sComplete08.pdf[/url][/quote]

But I can read and it makes no difference whatsoever to live playing. I can read bass clef and know the notes instantly on the stave but I have to figure out where they are on the bass. As with Golchen, I know on a piano keyboard, instantly, every note, which means sight reading and learning music off notation is much easier, whereas sight reading and learning music off written notation on the bass takes a bit more time.

For those who said that they do know every note they're playing, do you always also know the full song structures i.e. guitar chords, etc?

This is about live playing. The reading thing is handy but it has to be kept in context. Reading too much (in my experience) can cause dependency on written music and create constraints in improvisation skills so for now, my approach is build basic basslines and impro over them, rarely playing the exact same basslines twice. This works as long as I hit the "right" notes when chords change.

I don't see how working on reading notation will really nail fretboard knowledge - what it will do is help to understand the relationship between the dots on the sheet with where those notes are on the fretboard - but the notes on the bass clef in any case do not truly represent the real position of the electric bass register in any case.

Any exercises that can help with learning the notes would be useful.

[Guest Lee Van Cleef]

I'm learning from the Hal Leonard books at the moment and they go very slowly with notes on each string. What he advises is saying the notes as you play them. It sounds tedious and repetitive, but learning is basically hard work and repetitions, to me. I imagine that it eventually, through developing scales etc, becomes muscle memory so you instinctively no where you are and go next. So it's not so much knowing the notes as knowing how frets fit together.

I can already see that my problem with this is going to be alternate tunings. If I have the low E tuned differently, I'll instinctively think the first fret is F, when it isn't.

I'm a n00b though, so I'm quite possibly wrong.

[steve-soar]

What instrument did you learn to read music for and has it been your main instrument in the past?

[Wylie]

[quote name='AM1' post='497329' date='May 25 2009, 02:32 PM']... so for now, my approach is build basic basslines and impro over them, rarely playing the exact same basslines twice. This works as long as I hit the "right" notes when chords change ... Any exercises that can help with learning the notes would be useful.[/quote]


Your approach is fine. I think what people are saying is that when you know where the notes are, relative to the key you are playing in, you will be able to make the changes and hit the right notes. When you play a blues in A, undoubtedly you know that you will also be playing over a D and an E chord, right? So you know where the root notes are for those chords. Once you work out how each chord is built, you can choose other notes to go to when you approach that chord, and they will also be the 'right' ones; thus you are freer in your improvisation because you can move around in the chords. It's really all a matter of context, whether you read music, read charts, or play strictly by ear.

Having a systematic approach to your playing - learning scales, memorizing notes, etc. - doesn't mean you will be limited when you improvise, it means you will be freer in your improvisation. I strongly recommend getting a teacher. Made all the difference for me.

Ted

[AM1]

[quote name='steve-soar' post='497338' date='May 25 2009, 03:52 PM']What instrument did you learn to read music for and has it been your main instrument in the past?[/quote]

I can read in all clefs (both polyphonic, i.e contrapuntal separation and uniform homophony) and only started playing electric bass recently - so sometimes I will use written notation to learn bass music to supplement ear learning but that's for actually learning already written compositions (and is impeded by having to work out where the notes are on the bass).

In context though, my question has a focus around live performance and particularly improvisation, for which I think learning the fretboard (and not just intervals) will possibly be of benefit. Reading notation doesn't come into it in the particular scenario I am describing.

[dlloyd]

[quote name='AM1' post='497329' date='May 25 2009, 03:32 PM']But I can read and it makes no difference whatsoever to live playing. I can read bass clef and know the notes instantly on the stave but I have to figure out where they are on the bass. As with Golchen, I know on a piano keyboard, instantly, every note, which means sight reading and learning music off notation is much easier, whereas sight reading and learning music off written notation on the bass takes a bit more time.[/quote]

That's the exact point. Practicing reading on the bass will sort this out for you. You need to get it to the point where you associate the written note with the played note without having to translate it through its note name. That's how you got to know the piano keyboard, right?

[quote]For those who said that they do know every note they're playing, do you always also know the full song structures i.e. guitar chords, etc?[/quote]

Yes. Perhaps not the voicing.

[quote]This is about live playing. The reading thing is handy but it has to be kept in context. Reading too much (in my experience) can cause dependency on written music and create constraints in improvisation skills[/quote]

It won't if you don't let it. Some of the best improvisers I know were classically trained. I've also played with classically trained musicians who can't improvise to save themselves. The problem isn't the classical training per se, it's lack of experience in improvisation.

[quote]Any exercises that can help with learning the notes would be useful.[/quote]

You could always play 'find the note'... write notes on bits of paper, put them in a bag, and pick them at random... You pick the specific string then put your hand in the bag, then you find the note...

[AM1]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='497351' date='May 25 2009, 04:09 PM']That's the exact point. Practicing reading on the bass will sort this out for you. You need to get it to the point where you associate the written note with the played note without having to translate it through its note name. That's how you got to know the piano keyboard, right?[/quote]

Hi - reading on the bass hasn't really helped to develop instantaneous knowledge of the fretboard, i.e. where the same notes can be found on different parts of the fretboard, or how to play various fills in different positions. Anyone can learn a piano keyboard very, very quickly, because there is an easy visual reference of where the notes in an octave repeat themselves - i.e. (let's assume C major scale so without going into enharmonic equivalents) before every 2 black keys the immediate key to the left is a C and before every 3 black keys the note to the immediate left is an F. Where you find a note on the stave for a piano key, it relates to a specific PITCH on the piano keyboard. The bass is a different animal in that the same note (pitch) can be found in different locations on the bass plus it is tuned in 4ths - so reading bass music has not been conducive for me to learn the fretboard instinctively.

[quote name='dlloyd' post='497351' date='May 25 2009, 04:09 PM']It won't if you don't let it. Some of the best improvisers I know were classically trained. I've also played with classically trained musicians who can't improvise to save themselves. The problem isn't the classical training per se, it's lack of experience in improvisation.[/quote]

Yes - ditto and there's plenty of double edged swords in there, but it's another discussion - but a really interesting one at that.

[quote name='dlloyd' post='497351' date='May 25 2009, 04:09 PM']You could always play 'find the note'... write notes on bits of paper, put them in a bag, and pick them at random... You pick the specific string then put your hand in the bag, then you find the note...[/quote]

YES - it's exercises that will help, not notation. I have had advice from two different schools of thought overall on this topic and some say learn patterns i.e. modes, scales and intervals but not necessarily all the note names - others say, no you must know the note names, then things like modulation and transposing will be easier.

EDIT - general point not aimed at anyone specific - reading vs. ear isn't my intended discussion here. The intended discussion is means by which to learn the fretboard inside out, along with opinions regarding benefits of knowing the notes versus pattern/interval approach.

Edited May 25, 2009 by AM1

[Adrenochrome]

No I don't, however I could easily find out.
I've played in different tunings over the years, so the exact name of the 6th fret on a particular string becomes pretty much irrelevant. I can move around the fretboard quite easily and I can move things around and (usually) transpose easily.

[dlloyd]

[quote name='AM1' post='497363' date='May 25 2009, 04:18 PM']Hi - reading on the bass hasn't really helped to develop instantaneous knowledge of the fretboard, i.e. where the same notes can be found on different parts of the fretboard, or how to play various fills in different positions. Anyone can learn a piano keyboard very, very quickly, because there is an easy visual reference of where the notes in an octave repeat themselves - i.e. (let's assume C major scale so without going into enharmonic equivalents) before every 2 black keys the immediate key to the left is a C and before every 3 black keys the note to the immediate left is an F. Where you find a note on the stave for a piano key, it relates to a specific PITCH on the piano keyboard. The bass is a different animal in that the same note (pitch) can be found in different locations on the bass plus it is tuned in 4ths - so reading bass music has not been conducive for me to learn the fretboard instinctively.[/quote]

It comes with time. There'll be situations where a middle C goes to a high G and you'll realise you need to use the tenth fret C rather than the fifth fret C. It might take you a while to find it the first time, but the next time it'll be quicker and you'll gradually absorb it.

[quote]YES - it's exercises that will help, not notation. I have had advice from two different schools of thought overall on this topic and some say learn patterns i.e. modes, scales and intervals but not necessarily all the note names - others say, no you must know the note names, then things like modulation and transposing will be easier.[/quote]

There's no 'must' about it. It depends what you want to learn. Learning the shapes is probably the most valuable thing to learn first as someone playing rock music.