GASing for an Amp/Cab

[Eight]

So, I have basses I love (Cort Curbow4 & Warwick Vampyre SN), the effects pedals I want (but don't use that much, EH Bass Blogger & Hell Babe wah) and more music related computer sh*t than I know what to do with (literally).

This means one thing... I'm gassing so bad for an amp/cab.

But how do you know what to buy!?!?! I can't possibly try them all in every combination so could do with pointing in the right direction first.

I have been thinking about joining a band recently - not quite yet, but sooner or later. So I'd be after something practical for this. Chances are that'd mean something powerful enough for small/medium sized gigs (I'm never going to play Wembley). It'd also most likely be a metal band and would want a rig that complements the Warwick tone (I *love* that growl, and I'm pretty sure my next bass would be a Warwick as well) in lowish (C is my favourite) tunings.

For the head I'm thinking solid state. Lighter (?) and less faff. I'm not a music tech guy really. No idea about wattage either. DI out thingy sounds useful.

Cab(s) - I really don't know. Light weight is good and wheels would be great (they seem like a sensible idea anyway).

Budget probably up to £1000 (prefer to spend less, could spend more) - I don't even know if this is a good amount to be considering.

I am totally out of my depth in this one - the only thing I know about amps etc. is Behringer are crap; and Ashdowns might burst into flames (apparently ). Whilst I'm not in a hurry to buy, I would like to get some idea what I might want so I can try them and research etc. etc.

Cheers.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Eight

[maxrossell]

That's a lot of bank, dude. That'll get you something very decent.

Have you considered Warwick bass amps? In theory at least they'd be a pretty good match for Warwick basses.

[Eight]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='481702' date='May 7 2009, 10:28 AM']That's a lot of bank, dude. That'll get you something very decent.[/quote]
Too much for what I need? Or about right do you think?

Obviously I'd rather not spend money needlessly but will spend what it is required (or what I can) to get the right tools.

Plus I look at it like this, expensive bass running through sh*tty cheap amp means I wasted money on my bass.

[quote]Have you considered Warwick bass amps? In theory at least they'd be a pretty good match for Warwick basses.[/quote]
I've looked at them online, but don't know anything about them other than they look pretty good and don't seem bad money. Part of me likes the idea of all Warwick gear too.

[alexclaber]

As much as I like Warwick basses (played an '87 Streamer for a decade and my RIM Custom 5 has a wenge neck/board) I've never been impressed by their amps/cabs. When I broke the trussrod in the Streamer I got to spend some time at the distributors and had a good play with their Pro IX flagship rig and it was rather blah. And I've heard too many complaints of the cheaper heads being surprisingly quiet to recommend them.

Alex

P.S. Honourable exceptions would be the preamp/head with the tiny tube power amp driving dummy load and multiple voicings (what was it called?) and the Hellborg monsters.

[maxrossell]

[quote name='Eight' post='481712' date='May 7 2009, 10:36 AM']Too much for what I need? Or about right do you think?

Obviously I'd rather not spend money needlessly but will spend what it is required (or what I can) to get the right tools.

Plus I look at it like this, expensive bass running through sh*tty cheap amp means I wasted money on my bass.


I've looked at them online, but don't know anything about them other than they look pretty good and don't seem bad money. Part of me likes the idea of all Warwick gear too. [/quote]

I really can't say if it's too much or about right - I'd say you could get yourself a very respectable used 300w+ 410 halfstack for around half your budget, but how much more you spend really depends on what you're after. If I had a grand I'd be looking at a 500w+ head and two cabs, that way I can mix and match. Brandwise, Ampeg, Trace, Gallien, higher-end Ashdown and so on. If you're after lighter stuff, I hear MarkBass is a good candidate. But I dunno if that's your kind of sound.

[Eight]

I'm a kind a low, rumbling kind of bass guy - although I have no idea if I need good mid/high response to get the full growl out or whether that will all come from lows as well. And no idea what kind of speakers etc. would be needed to cut through a wall of guitar noise if I ended up playing alongside two of the ego maniacs.

Do you think 300-500W would be a good power range to look for?

[maxrossell]

Solid state, you're looking at 300w as a good starting point. Anything less than that and you may run out of headroom, and start to sound less good at higher volumes.

With bass, the very low end is what gives you the air-moving, room-vibrating feel with those slow frequencies that should sit just under the kick drum. The "grind" comes more from the higher midrange, where you get definition and a more vocal quality to the sound. Low-midrange is a compromise, because you need some to sound full and meaty, but too much and you start to sound dull and muddy. The very high end is where you get rattle and other sounds that can come across as sounding quite sharp if they're too loud - but again you need some high end so you don't sound dull.

It's kind of counter-intuitive, but I'd say that if you're not overly-familiar with dialing in sounds in a full band mix scenario, you probably want to avoid getting stuff with graphic EQs and shelving and all that stuff. Stick with the stuff that has a basic three or four-dial EQ, maybe with some on-off switches for added low and high end etc.

A lot of amps come with all sorts of gubbins like inbuilt compressors and even basic octavers, but I don't know if you'd be into all that.

Beyond that, your next stop is going to be hitting some music stores and seeing what gear they have in you can try. Again, for a grand or even a bit less, I'd be surprised if you didn't find something very decent indeed.

[Eight]

Thanks for all the info Max - that's really helping and very much appreciated.

You're probably right about EQ. The less I have to f*ck a mix up with, the better.

[quote name='maxrossell' post='481751' date='May 7 2009, 11:18 AM']A lot of amps come with all sorts of gubbins like inbuilt compressors and even basic octavers, but I don't know if you'd be into all that.[/quote]
Compressors, yes. At least I know what they are and vaguely how to use them (used software ones in DAWs) but I'd be fine with getting an external unit if it happened that the right amp for me didn't have a built-in compressor. Most other fancy features I probably wouldn't know I needed until the time came.

[chris_b]

How about a used LM2 and a Barefaced Compact?

[stingrayfan]

There's a monster Warwick head and cab in the used section: [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=48217"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=48217[/url]

[johnnylager]

A grand would get you a nice new Hartke LH / Barefaced rig. Or very pissed.

[Eight]

Seems like those Barefaced cabs are quite highly rated on here then? No Alex, you don't get to respond to that.

I was liking the MarkBass LMII until the Bass Player review mentioned it didn't have "burly" lows. Still, might try their gear if I can.

BTW If you're testing amps, many don't seem to have a headphone out so what would be the best way to approach comparing them? Since running them through a cab is also going to give you the characteristics of the speakers right? Maybe you found the perfect head but the cab let it down and you moved on unknowingly.

[maxrossell]

[quote name='Eight' post='481846' date='May 7 2009, 12:32 PM']Seems like those Barefaced cabs are quite highly rated on here then? No Alex, you don't get to respond to that.

I was liking the MarkBass LMII until the Bass Player review mentioned it didn't have "burly" lows. Still, might try their gear if I can.

BTW If you're testing amps, many don't seem to have a headphone out so what would be the best way to approach comparing them? Since running them through a cab is also going to give you the characteristics of the speakers right? Maybe you found the perfect head but the cab let it down and you moved on unknowingly.[/quote]

Difficult question. It's true that most high-end heads don't have a headphone jack.

Since you're looking at buying both, my advice would be to (if you can) play mix n' match.

The only other way I could think of would be to take a DI out and run them dry into a studio desk through flat-response monitors. But even then, as much as you'd have some basis of comparison, they'd still sound totally different depending on what bass cab you run 'em through.

You just gotta try a bunch out, I don't think there's a really simple solution to it, I'm afraid.

Edited May 7, 2009 by maxrossell

[Eight]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='481861' date='May 7 2009, 12:44 PM']The only other way I could think of would be to take a DI out and run them dry into a studio desk through flat-response monitors. But even then, as much as you'd have some basis of comparison, they'd still sound totally different depending on what bass cab you run 'em through.[/quote]
Hmm. I was thinking that say if I walked into a big shop which had like twenty different amps and a dozen or so cabs; would I be able to use headphones to get a basic sound out of the amp, enough to say like "ok these three have more boom in the low end than those so I'll try them with cabs". Or might I find that some amps sound like they have no low with headphones, but are great compared to others when used with cabs?

This is all so complicated.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Eight

[maxrossell]

[quote name='Eight' post='481903' date='May 7 2009, 01:08 PM']Hmm. I was thinking that say if I walked into a big shop which had like twenty different amps and a dozen or so cabs; would I be able to use headphones to get a basic sound out of the amp, enough to say like "ok these three have more boom in the low end than those so I'll try them with cabs". Or might I find that some amps sound like they have no low with headphones, but are great compared to others when used with cabs?

This is all so complicated.[/quote]

I think the problem there is that headphones would probably be an even less reliable source of comparison. Headphones tend to be very flattering, especially in the bass end. Also headphones come straight from the preamp, so you wouldn't hear the influence of the power amp on the overall sound either.

Can you describe to me the kind of sound you're looking for (as in "a bit like Rex from Pantera" or "more like the dude from Tool") and I'll have a look to see if there's a useful starting point for you?

[chris_b]

[quote name='Eight' post='481846' date='May 7 2009, 12:32 PM']....I was liking the MarkBass LMII until the Bass Player review mentioned it didn't have "burly" lows. BTW If you're testing amps, many don't seem to have a headphone out so what would be the best way to approach comparing them? Since running them through a cab is also going to give you the characteristics of the speakers right? Maybe you found the perfect head but the cab let it down and you moved on unknowingly....[/quote]
I have no idea what "burly lows" means but an LM2 has a [b]ton[/b] of bass.

In my opinion, when you are trying out gear you are listening to the whole. The bass, amp, cab and room all influence the sound but that's what you are dealing with. Individual components might sound good but you need to know what they sound like together. I don't think an amp will sound "real" through head phones at all.

[Eight]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='481918' date='May 7 2009, 01:18 PM']Can you describe to me the kind of sound you're looking for (as in "a bit like Rex from Pantera" or "more like the dude from Tool") and I'll have a look to see if there's a useful starting point for you?[/quote]
At the risk of sounding like a fanboy (as he happens to also play a Vampyre) - I would probably say Marco Hietala from Nightwish has a pretty useful sound for me. Wouldn't sound hugely out of place in a death metal band, but really excels with that lovely deep bassy rumble in symphonic/power metal bands.

[quote name='chris_b']I have no idea what "burly lows" means but an LM2 has a ton of bass.[/quote]
Hahah, no I don't know either but it sounded good. Lol. Other than that comment, I was really getting into the idea of the MarkBass heads. Edit: I'll make sure I try one I think.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Eight

[umph]

[quote name='Eight' post='481733' date='May 7 2009, 10:54 AM']I'm a kind a low, rumbling kind of bass guy - although I have no idea if I need good mid/high response to get the full growl out or whether that will all come from lows as well. And no idea what kind of speakers etc. would be needed to cut through a wall of guitar noise if I ended up playing alongside two of the ego maniacs.

Do you think 300-500W would be a good power range to look for?[/quote]
if your going for big low end i'd either go 4Xkt88 power amp or 750watt ss+ power amp just for lots of clean head room

[maxrossell]

[quote name='Eight' post='481954' date='May 7 2009, 01:39 PM']At the risk of sounding like a fanboy (as he happens to also play a Vampyre) - I would probably say Marco Hietala from Nightwish has a pretty useful sound for me. Wouldn't sound hugely out of place in a death metal band, but really excels with that lovely deep bassy rumble in symphonic/power metal bands.[/quote]

Marco Hietala uses a Warwick Pro Tube XI, which would set you back a grand on its own. However it's not a massive stretch to assume that their cheaper heads, like the pro fet series, might be quite close in sound to what you require.

Just taking a couple examples from GAK, a Pro Fet 5.2 head would set you back just under £400. I've played one and I'd describe it as very decent, especially for a quite "modern" sound. And it's a very simple, intuitive layout.

Not that I necessarily think you should buy a Warwick cab, or even a 4x10", but for the sake of the argument, a Warwick 410 WCA Pro is £350. Add a WCA Pro 1x15" and you have a full stack for a shade over a grand. And that's brand new. Second hand, I wouldn't expect to pay more than £700 for that kind of equipment in very good condition.

I hope that helps.

[Eight]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='481970' date='May 7 2009, 01:50 PM']Marco Hietala uses a Warwick Pro Tube XI, which would set you back a grand on its own.[/quote]
He's a big show off that one! But then playing in a band like that, he can no doubt afford it.

[quote]I hope that helps.[/quote]
You've been a star mate, cheers.

[chris_pokkuri]

I'm thinking of selling my Warwick Pro Fet 5.1 and WCA 411 Pro 4x10 cab. PM me if your interested.

[bassmansky]

try ashdowns abm range.head + 4x10 cab would be under your budget,or try the head with a different brand cab.an abm cab sounds nice but there are better ones out there and less heavy,or if you want to splash a bit more cash try their neo classic cabs.As for ashdown bursting into flames that was mainly their superfly amp which had teething troubles early on and which is now no longer made.The abm head will be just as reliable as others that have been mentioned imo.

[xgsjx]

There's a lot of good stuff to choose from for what you're looking to spend. I opted for the MB 2x10 combo, which I am very very happy with (I use it to remove pottery from the shelves of the craft studio next door to our rehearsal studio).

If you're looking for lightweight amps then either Markbass or Genz seems to be the best options.
If I was going to buy a separates rig to replace my combo I would probably go for one of Alex's cabs or build one of Bill Fitzmaurice's cabs & get the best second hand MB amp I could afford with what I had left.

[charic]

how about a line6 lowdown head along with a cab of your choice? Plenty of variation

[~tl]

I don't think you can go far wrong with a Hartke LH500. They're not as cheap as they used to be, but you can still pick them up for the £320 mark. Couple that with a 1x15 or a 4x10 cabinet and you should be away...