Want to be a virtuoso?

[elom]

I got a book for Xmas, [url="http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/book-of-the-week-outliers-by-malcolm-gladwell-1027343.html"]The Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell[/url], which I've only just got around to reading. It's about what makes successful people successful. That makes it sound like a really dull business book but it isn't at all.

So what does this have to do with bass? Well one of the elements that gets picked up on is that when you look at virtuosos in almost any field, not just music, a common factor is that they have put in about 10,000 hours practice to get to the top. That is one hell of a lot and goes some way to explaining why I'm still a plodder!

So who here reckons that since they first picked up a bass they've clocked up 10,000 hours practice (that's playing to improve, not just playing)? And if you have, just how good are you? (don't be shy!)

It's a really interesting book that I'd definitely recommend, especially if you want to know why Koreans crash airliners!

[alexclaber]

Bass has never struck me as an instrument that rewards virtuosity in the obvious sense. Better to become a good songwriter/arranger/producer and then be able to provide the ideal foundation for your compositions and drive a band along from the back.

10,000 hours is an awful lot of time - I doubt I've spent that much time playing bass but my nearest and dearest may disagree...

Alex

[Buzz]

It's works out at just over a year of solid 24 hours a day playing....crikey.

[Hamster]

Better a plodder with few but funky notes that are in the groove than a technical notes-per-minute bass virtuoso - YMMV

[HeavyJay]

[quote name='elom' post='446757' date='Mar 26 2009, 11:51 PM']I got a book for Xmas, [url="http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/book-of-the-week-outliers-by-malcolm-gladwell-1027343.html"]The Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell[/url], which I've only just got around to reading. It's about what makes successful people successful. That makes it sound like a really dull business book but it isn't at all.

So what does this have to do with bass? Well one of the elements that gets picked up on is that when you look at virtuosos in almost any field, not just music, a common factor is that they have put in about 10,000 hours practice to get to the top. That is one hell of a lot and goes some way to explaining why I'm still a plodder!

So who here reckons that since they first picked up a bass they've clocked up 10,000 hours practice (that's playing to improve, not just playing)? And if you have, just how good are you? (don't be shy!)

It's a really interesting book that I'd definitely recommend, especially if you want to know why Koreans crash airliners![/quote]

I'm pretty sure I'm nowhere near but I read a synopsis of the book (on W*kipedia no less) and it seemed to indicate that to was 10,000 hours of doing a particular activity rather than just practicing. It used the example of the Beatles clocking up more than 10,000 hours of gigging time together in Germany prior to becoming massive back here being the reason that they were such virtuoso performers as a live band. Not specifically their individual musicianship.

[Adrenochrome]

[quote name='HeavyJay' post='446881' date='Mar 27 2009, 08:40 AM']I'm pretty sure I'm nowhere near but I read a synopsis of the book (on W*kipedia no less) and it seemed to indicate that to was 10,000 hours of doing a particular activity rather than just practicing. It used the example of the Beatles clocking up more than 10,000 hours of gigging time together in Germany prior to becoming massive back here being the reason that they were such virtuoso performers as a live band. Not specifically their individual musicianship.[/quote]

A good example.
A few of us from Yorkshire I'm sure will know Tony Bianco, and he honed his skills playing disco in the clubs of Milan into the small hours on a regular basis when he was a kid. Tony's an absolute monster at fingerstyle playing and slap, though often seen on sounddesks in Yorkshire these days.

[elom]

[quote name='HeavyJay' post='446881' date='Mar 27 2009, 08:40 AM']I'm pretty sure I'm nowhere near but I read a synopsis of the book (on W*kipedia no less) and it seemed to indicate that to was 10,000 hours of doing a particular activity rather than just practicing. It used the example of the Beatles clocking up more than 10,000 hours of gigging time together in Germany prior to becoming massive back here being the reason that they were such virtuoso performers as a live band. Not specifically their individual musicianship.[/quote]

We're both right I think. 10,000 hours playing as a band is what made the Beatles so good [i]as a band[/i]. It didn't make Ringo the world's greatest drummer! but if Ringo had spent all that time practicing rather than playing he may well have been.

The point he is making here is that born 'talent' is really not that much of a contributing factor. I'm sure it'll be okay in copyright terms to quote a chunk here:

[quote]...they divided the school [Berlin Academy of Music] violinists into 3 groups. In the first group were the stars, the students with potential to become world-class soloists. In the second were those judged to be merely "good". In the third were students who were unlikely ever to play professionally and who intended to be music teachers in the public school system. All of the violinists were then asked the same question: over the course of your entire career, ever since you first picked up the violin, how many hours have you practiced?

Everyone from all three groups started playing at roughly the same age, around 5 years old. In those first few years, everyone practiced roughly the same amount, about 2 or 3 hours a week. But when students were around 8, real differences started to emerge. The students who would end up the best in their class began to practice more than everyone else: six hours a week by age nine, eight hours a week by age twelve, sixteen hours a week by age fourteen, and up and up, until by 20 they were practicing - that is, purposefully and single-mindedly playing their instruments with the intent to get better - well over thirty hours a week. In fact by the age of twenty, the elite performers had each totaled 10,000 hours practice. By contrast the merely good students had totaled 8,000 hours and the future music teachers had totaled just over 4,000 hours.[/quote]

Flicking through this month's BGM this morning I read the interview with Victor Wooten and he said that he first starting playing bass with his brothers at the age of 3...

[url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1846141214/"]Amazon Link[/url] for anyone interested.

[dlloyd]

Over twenty years of playing, that works out at less than an hour and a half playing a day... I've easily put in more than 10,000 hours... but I'm by no means a virtuoso.

Sounds like BS to me.

[Clockworkwar]

It is BS, all these business goals are

[bremen]

[quote name='elom' post='446967' date='Mar 27 2009, 10:02 AM']We're both right I think. 10,000 hours playing as a band is what made the Beatles so good [i]as a band[/i]. It didn't make Ringo the world's greatest drummer! [/quote]


All: 'It didn't even make him the Beatles' greatest drummer!'

[HeavyJay]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='446975' date='Mar 27 2009, 10:12 AM']Over twenty years of playing, that works out at less than an hour and a half playing a day... I've easily put in more than 10,000 hours... but I'm by no means a virtuoso.

Sounds like BS to me.[/quote]

I've not read the book and it could well be nonsense but I think the point is if you clock up 10,000 hours playing bass in the same band (possibly a fairly fixed style of music for all that time) then you'll be a virtuoso in that very specific and particular field i.e. playing that music in that band (a la the Beatles).

The book goes into other examples in different fields (I think Bill Gates pops up) and the outcome of the 10,000 hour practice is success rather than skill level (although one would assume there is a correlation).

[Dubs]

I’ve almost given up on bass. Feel very uninspired to play at the moment. I like to waste money on bass related stuff to make me think I’m a bass player at the moment though

10,000 hours is a f***ing long time. That’s 5 hours a day, every day, for almost 6 years! I could do that, I just don’t want to

[bremen]

[quote name='benwhiteuk' post='447013' date='Mar 27 2009, 11:18 AM']I’ve almost given up on bass. Feel very uninspired to play at the moment. I like to waste money on bass related stuff to make me think I’m a bass player at the moment though [/quote]

Sounds very familiar ;-)

Kill two birds with one stone: spend some money on a fretless, and put your other bass(es) under the bed.

I did that after my band split due to musical similarities and it's been really therapeutic.

[quote]10,000 hours is a f***ing long time. That’s 5 hours a day, every day, for almost 6 years! I could do that, I just don’t want to [/quote]

hoho, I've had maybe 10 hours playing fretless and I'm doing my first gig with it (and a new band that doesn't have any songs) tomorrow...

[Eight]

Hmm... so in about fifteen years time I'll be a virtuoso. Good stuff. Lol.

[Golchen]

I disagree. I don't think that everyone has virtuosity in them. All the best sportsmen for example have great 'natural' talent as well as having put all the hard work in.

All you can say for sure is that if you put 10,000 hours in on an instrument you will probably be better at it afterwards, but then again, with that amount of playing you'll probably have RSI .....

[Happy Jack]

[i]Everyone from all three groups started playing at roughly the same age, around 5 years old. In those first few years, everyone practiced roughly the same amount, about 2 or 3 hours a week. But when students were around 8, real differences started to emerge. The students who would end up the best in their class began to practice more than everyone else: six hours a week by age nine, eight hours a week by age twelve, sixteen hours a week by age fourteen, and up and up, until by 20 they were practicing - that is, purposefully and single-mindedly playing their instruments with the intent to get better - well over thirty hours a week.[/i]

And there's your problem - a perfect example of a selectively skewed statistic, producing an unconsciously biased result.

The inherent assumption (above) is that, in order to become really good, players practised more and harder. In other words they all started from the same place but had different aspirations.

It would be equally valid to assume that, because certain players were far more talented, they were prepared to spend far more time practising. In other words they all started at different places which encouraged different aspirations.

There's absolutely no way from the evidence available that you can identify which of those two assumptions is true. Worse, I'm being selective too. There are plenty of other assumptions which I haven't even considered.

The only Management-type books I've ever read which were actually of any use or relevance in the real world were [i]The One Minute Manager[/i] and especially [i]Parkinson's Law[/i].

[Dubs]

[quote name='bremen' post='447021' date='Mar 27 2009, 11:25 AM']Sounds very familiar ;-)

Kill two birds with one stone: spend some money on a fretless, and put your other bass(es) under the bed.

I did that after my band split due to musical similarities and it's been really therapeutic.[/quote]

Thanks for the advice definitely sounds like something to potentially reignite the spark. I did have a cheap fretless for a little while but I didn’t like the feel of it. I’ll seriously consider getting a better quality fretless when the sale of my Sterling has been completed.

[quote name='Golchen' post='447186' date='Mar 27 2009, 01:08 PM']I disagree. I don't think that everyone has virtuosity in them. All the best sportsmen for example have great 'natural' talent as well as having put all the hard work in.

All you can say for sure is that if you put 10,000 hours in on an instrument you will probably be better at it afterwards, but then again, with that amount of playing you'll probably have RSI .....[/quote]

+1

Definitely agree with that.

[bootleg]

[quote name='benwhiteuk' post='447013' date='Mar 27 2009, 11:18 AM']I’ve almost given up on bass. Feel very uninspired to play at the moment. I like to waste money on bass related stuff to make me think I’m a bass player at the moment though

10,000 hours is a f***ing long time. That’s 5 hours a day, every day, for almost 6 years! I could do that, I just don’t want to [/quote]

How many hours do people actually play/practise a week? I probably managed 5 hours playing in bands and 3 hours practise this week. So that would be 25 years. Maybe if I spent last time on here I could put in a bit more time ;-)

Surely it's the quality of those practice hours not just the quantity.

[bremen]

[quote name='benwhiteuk' post='447205' date='Mar 27 2009, 01:27 PM']Thanks for the advice definitely sounds like something to potentially reignite the spark. I did have a cheap fretless for a little while but I didn’t like the feel of it. I’ll seriously consider getting a better quality fretless when the sale of my Sterling has been completed.[/quote]

I've had a fretless for years but never really persevered till I deliberately put the frets away. There comes a point where it 'clicks' and suddenly you can play in tune, then it's really liberating.

Beedster suggested trying to play everything on the fretless, not just stuff that you'd think 'ah, that'd be good on a fretless', and he was right.