jakenewmanbass Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 [quote name='Eight' post='437114' date='Mar 17 2009, 12:23 PM']If you're reading this, I'm willing to bet you're not a musical genius. In which case, basing your musical education on the activities of 0.001% of musicians might not be the soundest advice. If you're one of them, you'd already know it by now and wouldn't be here reading this thread to worry about it.[/quote] Great logic and very compeling evidence for a solid approach to learning. The trouble with this argument is that those that are happy having a good time in music feel attacked by people who take it more seriously. I don't see a lot of evidence for some of the claims about JB or STs views other than they don't understand why people go for lessons and then don't want to do the work. When I taught at university I got seriously hacked off at lazy students because it's entirely possible they would be denying a good student a place having got through audition on some non related exam results. I would simply assert that if you want to play music for fun then it's available to you to acquire the standard you feel comfortable with. On the other hand if you want to compete for work with some of the better musicians out there get your sh*t together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queenofthedepths Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 [quote name='jakesbass' post='437184' date='Mar 17 2009, 01:13 PM']Great logic and very compeling evidence for a solid approach to learning. The trouble with this argument is that those that are happy having a good time in music feel attacked by people who take it more seriously. I don't see a lot of evidence for some of the claims about JB or STs views other than they don't understand why people go for lessons and then don't want to do the work. When I taught at university I got seriously hacked off at lazy students because it's entirely possible they would be denying a good student a place having got through audition on some non related exam results. I would simply assert that if you want to play music for fun then it's available to you to acquire the standard you feel comfortable with. On the other hand if you want to compete for work with some of the better musicians out there get your sh*t together.[/quote] +1 Obviously some people just have different ideas of what's fun. I'd probably be enjoying bass even if I'd never learned any theory at all, but I don't think I'd enjoy it as much as I do! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eight Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 (edited) [quote name='jakesbass' post='437184' date='Mar 17 2009, 01:13 PM']The trouble with this argument is that those that are happy having a good time in music feel attacked by people who take it more seriously.[/quote] You're tarring me with someone else's brush. I've never said you should learn theory/read/study anything. If you want fun then you get it where you can and more power to you. My pov, is against the people who claim to take it all seriously and believe they are part of an elite magical creative force capable of revolution without any of the knowledge that has been built up over centuries by a huge number of talented musicians. Their justification for this, someone (a hell of a lot more talented and creative than they) once managed it. Edited March 17, 2009 by Eight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted March 17, 2009 Author Share Posted March 17, 2009 Or are waiting for the bass talent pixie to wave his (or her) dust in their direction! Yeeeay, the pixie! I actually don't get that working at music and fun are mutually exclusive. If fun is a manifestation of satisfaction, I get loads of it out of study. If I spent any time playing 'Guitar Hero', I would consider it to be wasted time and feel (mildly)frustrated, angry etc. So 'fun' for me and for many others is not to be found in frivolous nonsense but in focussed and rewarding activities. I have fun whilst I do things, I don't do things to have fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queenofthedepths Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 [quote name='Eight' post='437263' date='Mar 17 2009, 01:48 PM']My pov, is against the people who claim to take it all seriously and believe they are part of an elite magical creative force capable of revolution without any of the knowledge that has been built up over centuries by a huge number of talented musicians. Their justification for this, someone (a hell of a lot more talented and creative than they) once managed it.[/quote] And a lot of the time these people are subconsciously copying their theory from the music they listen to, so they've got a load of half-baked ideas without even realising it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queenofthedepths Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 [quote name='bilbo230763' post='437278' date='Mar 17 2009, 01:57 PM']Or are waiting for the bass talent pixie to wave his (or her) dust in their direction! Yeeeay, the pixie! I actually don't get that working at music and fun are mutually exclusive. If fun is a manifestation of satisfaction, I get loads of it out of study. If I spent any time playing 'Guitar Hero', I would consider it to be wasted time and feel (mildly)frustrated, angry etc. So 'fun' for me and for many others is not to be found in frivolous nonsense but in focussed and rewarding activities. I have fun whilst I do things, I don't do things to have fun.[/quote] Most people aren't awesome like us, though, Bilbo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eight Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 (edited) [quote name='queenofthedepths' post='437279' date='Mar 17 2009, 01:59 PM']And a lot of the time these people are subconsciously copying their theory from the music they listen to, so they've got a load of half-baked ideas without even realising it.[/quote] You shouldn't learn music theory because there's a chance you might come across part of it that isn't right? Edit: you get its called "theory" for a reason right? You make your own mind up as to which bits you like and which bits you don't. Or do you mean the classical guys got half-baked ideas from half-baked music, whereas the things you listen to are free of these imperfections and fit to influence/inspire you? BTW If you play a fretted bass, then your instrument is based on the half-baked ideas they came up with. Edited March 17, 2009 by Eight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted March 17, 2009 Author Share Posted March 17, 2009 [quote name='queenofthedepths' post='437280' date='Mar 17 2009, 01:59 PM']Most people aren't awesome like us, though, Bilbo. [/quote] Are they not? That's cos they aren't from Cwmbran (its the positive energy from the town centre tower block and the great seat of learning that is Croesyceiliog Comprehensive) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted March 17, 2009 Author Share Posted March 17, 2009 [quote name='Eight' post='437293' date='Mar 17 2009, 02:09 PM']If you play a fretted bass, then your instrument is based on the half-baked ideas they came up with.[/quote] I agree!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queenofthedepths Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 [quote name='Eight' post='437293' date='Mar 17 2009, 02:09 PM']You shouldn't learn music theory because there's a chance you might come across part of it that isn't right? Edit: you get its called "theory" for a reason right? You make your own mind up as to which bits you like and which bits you don't. Or do you mean the classical guys got half-baked ideas from half-baked music, whereas the things you listen to are free of these imperfections and fit to influence/inspire you? BTW If you play a fretted bass, then your instrument is based on the half-baked ideas they came up with.[/quote] I really have no idea what you're on about! My main bass is fretless! And I know theory reasonably well..! I meanttt that those who don't actively learn theory are still picking up influences from what they listen to. Learning the theory would actually be a shortcut. [quote name='bilbo230763' post='437295' date='Mar 17 2009, 02:11 PM']Are they not? That's cos they aren't from Cwmbran (its the positive energy from the town centre tower block and the great seat of learning that is Croesyceiliog Comprehensive)[/quote] You're not wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigd1 Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Does it really matter how somebody makes music ? I can read music, I can also play by ear, I can play in with a group of musicians and just jam along to whatever is coming together musically. Music IMO is something you do to express yourself, if that is just to play a 12bar blues or a full opus, it's whatever floats your boat. I find it quite strange that people at the top in so called popular music think they have the answers to how we should all make music. As history has show there is no right or wrong why to approach this thing we all love to do, at what ever level we do it. I have played at the very top in classical circles as a tuba player, and I have played for 12 bar blues bands who don't have any musical theory understanding, both have been fantastic to be part of. But I would never try to tell anyone that my way is the right way and no other route is correct, isn't it just what what does it for you ? However you take part in music, aren't you doing it because you enjoy it ? Not because its a chore, if it is the latter IMO get out now and do something else......... music isn't for you. JB does seem to have a lot of very judgemental views, he is a very good bass player / musician, but is he really an expert ? He is of course entitled to his opinion, we don't have to agree or disagree, just read it and take it for what it is. Jeff's opinion. He does unfortunately have the opportunity to put his opinions out publicly, still don't mean he's right.............. only in my opinion of course !! Ta very Glad BIDd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 [quote name='Eight' post='437263' date='Mar 17 2009, 01:48 PM']My pov, is against the people who claim to take it all seriously and believe they are part of an elite magical creative force capable of revolution without any of the knowledge that has been built up over centuries by a huge number of talented musicians.[/quote] They were so last week though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eight Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 (edited) [quote name='queenofthedepths' post='437313' date='Mar 17 2009, 02:24 PM'] I really have no idea what you're on about! My main bass is fretless![/quote] If anyone on here had a fretless guitar or keyless keyboard, I'd bet it would be you. [quote]I meanttt that those who don't actively learn theory are still picking up influences from what they listen to. Learning the theory would actually be a shortcut.[/quote] Ah, sorry, I misunderstood your point there and totally agree that you pick up influences without specifically studying the theory behind your favourite music. I wouldn't regard theory as a shortcut if applied correctly (not saying I do, or I can) but its a different dimension and doesn't replace listening to the records that make you tick. Edit: would just like to reitterate that I'm not supporting Jeff Berlin here. I'm a fan (not an expert) of music theory, but am publically distancing myself from that one particular preacher. Edited March 17, 2009 by Eight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eight Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 [quote name='Crazykiwi' post='437322' date='Mar 17 2009, 02:32 PM']They were so last week though. [/quote] LMAO. I think its dangerously close to the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queenofthedepths Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_(instrument)"]a keyless keyboard?[/url] Sadly I don't have one, but now you've said it, I really want one! I'm gonna defret one of my classical guitars now as well! I think theory is a shortcut because it gives you some more of the tools to write music. Theory won't actually allow you to play any of the notes you couldn't play before, but it takes a lot of trial and error out of writing music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eight Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 [quote name='queenofthedepths' post='437360' date='Mar 17 2009, 03:01 PM'][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_(instrument)"]a keyless keyboard?[/url] Sadly I don't have one, but now you've said it, I really want one![/quote] GGGAAAASSSS!!!!! Lol. I think my days as an aspiring bass player could be numbered. I think I'll be a professional continuum player instead. [quote]I think theory is a shortcut because it gives you some more of the tools to write music. Theory won't actually allow you to play any of the notes you couldn't play before, but it takes a lot of trial and error out of writing music.[/quote] You can certainly use it as crutch or a shortcut I suppose. I know I'm no musical genius... (don't cry for me, its ok)... so to be honest, I'll use any and all resources available to me to be the best I can be at something. I don't follow rules, but if someone else has done all the trial and error and wants to tell me their opinions then I'll listen and try to incorporate what I agree with, and investigate what I don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 [quote name='Eight' post='437263' date='Mar 17 2009, 01:48 PM']You're tarring me with someone else's brush.[/quote] Not my intention, the sentence I attributed to your quote was the one stating I felt you used good logic to support your argument. I then went on (separated by two full lines) to join in the rest of the conversation which is where I came in with "the problem with this argument....." so not [i]your[/i] argument but the argument in general that was being had in the thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBeefChief Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Seems to me that Jeff Berlin only teaches/advocates one aspect of being a pro - technical/musical ability. I would add not acting like a dick and pissing people off, and not dressing like the IT Department. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='437631' date='Mar 17 2009, 06:00 PM']Seems to me that Jeff Berlin only teaches/advocates one aspect of being a pro - technical/musical ability. I would add not acting like a dick and pissing people off, and not dressing like the IT Department.[/quote] ...and that moustache. I'd love to do one of those Jackass moments with an electric razor and just take a little chunk out... and run off... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 bring things back on track for a moment... ...irony. Would Jeff recognise an ironic musical statement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eight Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 (edited) [quote name='jakesbass' post='437622' date='Mar 17 2009, 05:52 PM']Not my intention, the sentence I attributed to your quote was the one stating I felt you used good logic to support your argument.[/quote] Ah cool. I think the reputation of music theory has been ruined by the old school piano teacher type person, who looks down on anyone who doesn't want to learn every nuance of theory and just enjoys playing (and may do pretty well for themselves in that). I thought they were a dying breed, but I wonder if Berlin is one of them. That kind of attitude does nothing to encourage people to see theory in the right light and to consider it for themselves. You just get people's backs up. Edit: Forgot I wanted to say that how you judge yourself is regardless of whether you choose theory or not. Its important to be able to be realistic about your abilities, know where you're weak and choose whether to do something about it. I can no more judge my potential based on Bach's knowledge of theory than a non-reader etc. can judge theirs based on Jimi Hendrix. Edit 2: I realise Hendrix placed that hideous six stringed instrument, not a respectable bass such as the fine folk here. Edited March 17, 2009 by Eight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 [quote name='bilbo230763' post='437060' date='Mar 17 2009, 11:43 AM']I think the quantifiable 'success' of certain named individuals is no indicator of the best route to take. It is no more sensible than using blind chance as a justification of the validity of choosing to take the wrong route to get to your chosen destination because others have found it by chance. Relying on the good fortune of others to inform your decisions on how to best manage your own career seems a fools errand to me.[/quote][quote name='Eight' post='437114' date='Mar 17 2009, 12:23 PM']The argument that so-and-so never read/learned anything/practiced etc. doesn't mean you don't have to either.[/quote] No, you missed my point. What I was getting at was that with the viewpoint Jeff B appears to have, re: playing an instrument if you're not a reader or learning to read, means that Messrs. Karn and Palladino should not be playing at all. Which of course they can, and should be. It's not a case of "if it's good enough for [i]X[/i] it's good enough for me" at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eight Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 [quote name='Rich' post='437674' date='Mar 17 2009, 06:57 PM']It's not a case of "if it's good enough for [i]X[/i] it's good enough for me" at all.[/quote] I've heard that often enough though. (Not from you). Well... looks like we ran off arguing a slightly different point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='437631' date='Mar 17 2009, 06:00 PM']I would add not acting like a dick and pissing people off, and not dressing like the IT Department.[/quote] Absolutely. If he ever wonders why he's not more in demand, those might be two of the answers. If he ever wonders why Tal Wilkenfraud gets better gigs than he does, again, that might be two of the answers. At least she looks like she's enjoying herself, goofy as she looks. And then Rickey Minor kicks his arse (and everyone else's) when it comes to high profile work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARGH Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Rich' post='437674' date='Mar 17 2009, 06:57 PM']No, you missed my point. What I was getting at was that with the viewpoint Jeff B appears to have, re: playing an instrument if you're not a reader or learning to read, means that Messrs. Karn and Palladino should not be playing at all. Which of course they can, and should be. It's not a case of "if it's good enough for [i]X[/i] it's good enough for me" at all.[/quote] Read a bit more JB Rich and you will realise that is utter crap.... And Thunes and Berlin are right,and I dont read well either. Edited March 18, 2009 by ARGH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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