Would like to upgrade head unit!

[:amaze:]

So I just got my new cab in the mail today, an Avatar 2x12 (www.avatarspeakers.com), and i went and hooked it up to test it out.

Now, this cab is rated at 500watts RMS, so it shouldn't be distorting being played with a peavey probass500 (375watts at 4ohm where i have it with another cab). But I find that when I turn the pre-gain/post-gain above half-way, it distorts like mad, and isn't even very loud.

I'm a bit disappointed, having just dropped most of my christmas money on a new cab that I can't even play to its potential with my current head.

SO, point to the story ... I'm looking to upgrade my head. I've been looking at maybe buying a separate pre-amp and power-amp, but I'm not quite sure what i'm looking for in a pre-amp. also, i'm not sure that this would be the most cost-effective thing to do ... being a poor college student, I can't afford to spend thousands of dollars.

I'd say my budget is around 600$ (though if i could find a website that offers no-interest payment plan, i could increase that by a bit), and would like to get as many clean watts as possible. I am open to using a tube amp (i think you call them valves here, or is that a different thing?)/ hybrid, but I'm rather uninformed about them, so again ... not sure what I'm looking for.

oh, i am in the US, if that makes any difference.

[Boneless]

No point in buying separate preamp and poweramp, really, if you're not actually choosing a particular pre and a particular poweramp.

There are loads of choices out there, the first three I can think of:

- a Markbass Little Mark II: solid-state
- the new Hartke LH500 (cheap): hybrid
- the Peavey Tour 450: solid-state

[:amaze:]

Thank you Boneless.

I was actually looking at the Hartke1000.

What are the advantages of having a tube pre-amp?

EDIT:

Also, I'm looking at the specs for the Hartke1000, and i'm a bit confused about this part:

Dual Parallel Mode: 2 x 225 watts @ 8 ohms, 2 x 320 watts @ 4 ohms, 2 x 545 watts @ 2 ohms
Bridge Mode: 1 x 750 watts @ 8 ohms, 1 x 1100 watts @ 4 ohms

what is the difference between dual parallel and bridge mode?

Edited January 9, 2009 by :amaze:

[Boneless]

It depends, really, by the type of preamp.

Some tube preamps are made to saturate or distort, others are made to stay clean and clear. Tubes are there, anyway, to give their "colour" to the tone. Tubes tend not to have a linear response, and tend to add what we would call "warmth" (although it always depends on the preamp... some tube preamps are made to be absolutely hi-fi, with clarity in mind, not warmth, not generally the case in bass preamps though).

The Hartke head has a single tube preamp, which is made for clean, not saturated sounds. I have never tried it, bear in mind, I'm only suggesting it as a choice because it's so cheap really.

The Ashdown ABM, instead, has a valve stage in the preamp which is there to add grit and saturation.

Tubes anyway, aren't necessarily better than solid-state alternatives. The Markbass Little Mark is greatly appreciated on the forums*, for example, for its clear yet warm and even tone. I've read nice things about the Peavey Tour heads (supposedly good workhorses with a quite faithful tonal response and lots of power).

*: maybe TOO much, really I've seen people considering it better than amps 3-4 times more expensive, and while taste is personal, I think some people exaggerate and I'm Italian! I should be praising Markbass, and I actually own a Little Mark, and don't get me wrong, they're GREAT amps, but I don't think they're as high-end as they make 'em over the forums, especially on the US forums

EDIT:

Dual Parallel mode, I think, is a bi-amped mode where you can decide what frequencies to amplify over two different speakers. For example, all frequencies above 300Hz amplified by a 2x10" and all frequencies below by a 1x15". Not sure, though.
With only one cabinet, you don't need this feature.

Edited January 9, 2009 by Boneless

[:amaze:]

Thanks again!

I'm going to continue to search for a while before I make any rash decisions, but I'm definitely keeping the hartke (and possibly the markbass) in mind!

any other suggestions? I'm really just looking to be louder ... i'm not a total tone whore ... i can get a decent sound with my bass and pedals, i'm more interested in just getting as much volume as possible out of a new head.

Also, I am running 2 cabs (I've got the avatar and then deciding between my GK backline 115 or hartke transporter 410 which are both in my basement right now).

[Merton]

[quote name='Boneless' post='375630' date='Jan 9 2009, 08:47 PM']EDIT:

Dual Parallel mode, I think, is a bi-amped mode where you can decide what frequencies to amplify over two different speakers. For example, all frequencies above 300Hz amplified by a 2x10" and all frequencies below by a 1x15". Not sure, though.
With only one cabinet, you don't need this feature.[/quote]
Nope.

The Hartke LH1000 has 2 power amps. Dual parallel mode means you use both as separate power amps with lower power output and impedance. Bridged mode sticks one on the end of the other, giving one higher-powered output at double the impedance.

EDIT for clarity!

Edited January 9, 2009 by Merton

[Boneless]

Keep in mind that you already have kind of a "natural" crossover between the cabs, since a 1x15" tends to have a darker, bassier tone than a 4x10" for example. 2x12" are generally great standalone cabs.

[quote]Nope.

The Hartke LH1000 has 2 power amps. Dual parallel mode means you use both. Bridgedmode sticks one on the end of the other, giving one higher-powered output at double the impedance.[/quote]

Ahhh, I see, the single power amps get down to 2 ohms, while the bridge mode only gets to 4 ohms. (Well, I knew I was going to be wrong ).

Useless, I'd say, anyway, since there aren't any cabs (that I know of) with a 2 ohm impedance, and going through 4 cabs (as in two stacks made of two 4 ohm cabs in parallel) is never going to happen adding a crossover would have slightly increased the cost, OK, but also it would have given a reason to be to the "Dual Parallel" mode.

Edited January 9, 2009 by Boneless

[Jase]

If you go for Hartke.....be careful, they're very loud.

[:amaze:]

[quote name='Jase' post='375654' date='Jan 9 2009, 04:17 PM']If you go for Hartke.....be careful, they're very loud. [/quote]

well that's exactly what i'm going for. my current set-up just isnt cutting it.

[Boneless]

Now that I think of it (stupid me ) the Dual Parallel mode can be useful, since it lets you use a 8 ohm cab together with a 4 ohm cab

Anyway, I don't know if the Hartke LH500-1000 are loud (I would think so, of course ), but the HA3500 (350W) is very loud indeed.
Markbass amps are very loud as well, I have never, ever raised the volume over a quarter (while keeping the gain at the maximum level before clipping, of course).

Edited January 9, 2009 by Boneless

[Jase]

[quote name=':amaze:' post='375656' date='Jan 9 2009, 09:20 PM']well that's exactly what i'm going for. my current set-up just isnt cutting it.[/quote]

Tidy darts!

[Jase]

It's all very confusing.....modes and ohms and bridges.....I'd shove it all through a 1000 watt cab!

[bass_ferret]

I am not familiar with the Peavey Pro-bass 500 but I presume it has the DDT to stop the power amp clipping. IIRC its got some full parametric EQ so some fairly extreme settings are possible. Set all the EQ to flat. Its got a tube pre-amp so its possible the tube is knackered.

Try the amp with a different cab. Dont assume cos the Avatar is brand new its not faulty. You will be pretty pissed if you pony up for a new amp and the cab is faulty so you have to make sure what the problem is. Check the speaker cable. Make sure you are not using a signal lead for speaker cable. Does the Avatar have speakon. Do your other cabs have speakon. Can you run them all up using the same leads.

If the amp farts with all your cabs then it needs repairing or replacing. Dont assume it will sound great mixed up with your other cabs. Mixing cabs produces unpredictable results so make sure you have a good listen.

And the view that 15 cabs go lower than 4x10's is a very out of date view.

[Boneless]

[quote]And the view that 15 cabs go lower than 4x10's is a very out of date view.[/quote]

Never said so, I just said that 1x15" cabs are generally darker, more low-midrangey at least. I know that many 4x10" today can actually go deeper and lower than most 1x15", but coupling a 2x10"/4x10" with a 1x15" still yields interesting results due to the difference in dynamic and frequency response of the cabs.

Anyway, yes, you should check what you've got first. I just assumed you had already thought of this

Edited January 9, 2009 by Boneless

[:amaze:]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='375676' date='Jan 9 2009, 05:00 PM']I am not familiar with the Peavey Pro-bass 500 but I presume it has the DDT to stop the power amp clipping. IIRC its got some full parametric EQ so some fairly extreme settings are possible. Set all the EQ to flat. Its got a tube pre-amp so its possible the tube is knackered.

Try the amp with a different cab. Dont assume cos the Avatar is brand new its not faulty. You will be pretty pissed if you pony up for a new amp and the cab is faulty so you have to make sure what the problem is. Check the speaker cable. Make sure you are not using a signal lead for speaker cable. Does the Avatar have speakon. Do your other cabs have speakon. Can you run them all up using the same leads.

If the amp farts with all your cabs then it needs repairing or replacing. Dont assume it will sound great mixed up with your other cabs. Mixing cabs produces unpredictable results so make sure you have a good listen.

And the view that 15 cabs go lower than 4x10's is a very out of date view.[/quote]

I've been using the same head for a number of years, and it's given me this sort of problem with everything i've used it with. the clip light goes on when i turn it past 50% at all, and sounds very very distorted, through all 3 of my cabs, using all the speaker cables in my band's possession. I'm fairly certain i've diagnosed this correctly.

you mentioned that it might need the tube replaced? is that an easy thing to try out?

[Adrenochrome]

+1.
Check it's all working right before you splash the cash as I'm surprised you can't get much clean volume at all.

[dannybuoy]

I suggest checking out the classified ads over at Talkbass! Lots of tasty amps on offer.

[johnnylager]

[quote name='Jase' post='375654' date='Jan 9 2009, 09:17 PM']If you go for Hartke.....be careful, they're very loud. [/quote]
Very, very loud. Very much louder than a HA3500 through a Behringer 8x10.

[bass_ferret]

[quote name=':amaze:' post='375691' date='Jan 9 2009, 10:13 PM']I've been using the same head for a number of years, and it's given me this sort of problem with everything i've used it with. the clip light goes on when i turn it past 50% at all, and sounds very very distorted, through all 3 of my cabs, using all the speaker cables in my band's possession. I'm fairly certain i've diagnosed this correctly.

you mentioned that it might need the tube replaced? is that an easy thing to try out?[/quote]
Sounds good (or bad) to me. I dont know how easy it is to replace the tube, and I guess you dont have a manual. I can't remember seeing Peavey manuals online so it might be worth a repair guy looking at it.

Dont be surprised it the clip light comes on at 50% as this is dependant on a lot of things like the input level. An amp will only output its maximum rated power, and the DDT is just a limiter that puts on hard compression when the threshold is reached, but I would not expect it to distort. It would be worth you reading the basschat wiki to see how it all works.

I have never run my peavey amps with the DDT on all the time cos they did not sound so good despite the claims the effect it is inaudible. It is awarning not a target

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='Boneless' post='375689' date='Jan 9 2009, 10:11 PM']Never said so, I just said that 1x15" cabs are generally darker, more low-midrangey at least. I know that many 4x10" today can actually go deeper and lower than most 1x15", but coupling a 2x10"/4x10" with a 1x15" still yields interesting results due to the difference in dynamic and frequency response of the cabs.

Anyway, yes, you should check what you've got first. I just assumed you had already thought of this [/quote]
Interesting being the operative word. When mixing cabs, unless the cabs have been designed to be complimentary there will be phase cancellation occuring somewhere in the frequency range, the interesting thing is where. For this reason some like me dont like mixing cabs with different drivers.

[:amaze:]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='375759' date='Jan 9 2009, 06:14 PM']Sounds good (or bad) to me. I dont know how easy it is to replace the tube, and I guess you dont have a manual. I can't remember seeing Peavey manuals online so it might be worth a repair guy looking at it.

Dont be surprised it the clip light comes on at 50% as this is dependant on a lot of things like the input level. An amp will only output its maximum rated power, and the DDT is just a limiter that puts on hard compression when the threshold is reached, but I would not expect it to distort. It would be worth you reading the basschat wiki to see how it all works.

I have never run my peavey amps with the DDT on all the time cos they did not sound so good despite the claims the effect it is inaudible. It is awarning not a target [/quote]

well on my amp, there is a light for DDT, and a separate red light for clipping. the clipping light usually comes on first, and the sound is distorted before either of them turn on.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name=':amaze:' post='375821' date='Jan 10 2009, 12:22 AM']well on my amp, there is a light for DDT, and a separate red light for clipping. the clipping light usually comes on first, and the sound is distorted before either of them turn on.[/quote]

I'd def get your amp checked before you spend any more money on new gear. If it's just the pre-amp tube, we're not talking big bucks to supply and fit...min £10 for the valve to buy retail.

[:amaze:]

is there something i can do to check if it's the pre-amp tube? i'd rather not buy a new one if i don't have to.

[stingrayfan]

[quote name=':amaze:' post='375602' date='Jan 9 2009, 08:16 PM']Now, this cab is rated at 500watts RMS, so it shouldn't be distorting being played with a peavey probass500 (375watts at 4ohm where i have it with another cab). But I find that when I turn the pre-gain/post-gain above half-way, it distorts like mad, and isn't even very loud.[/quote]
Sounds like the cab the problem - rather than the head. Rated at 500w, it should be giving you a clean sound whatever the head.

[bass_ferret]

[quote name=':amaze:' post='375821' date='Jan 10 2009, 12:22 AM']well on my amp, there is a light for DDT, and a separate red light for clipping. the clipping light usually comes on first, and the sound is distorted before either of them turn on.[/quote]
That just confirms to me that there is a fault with the amp. Whether its worth fixing is not really anything we can advise you on, you need a tech. If it is being used as an excuse to buy a new amp I can recommend the Genz Benz Shuttle 6.0 to add to the other options suggested. Worth a listen.