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Al Krow

Bugera "2000W" with 3x12AX7 valve pre (this should peak your interest)

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Good question! 

If it had been my Markbass AC 121 Lite, I'd have definitely expected that to "sound" louder than a more baked in mid-scooped Aggie TH500 :) 

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8 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Good question! 

If it had been my Markbass AC 121 Lite, I'd have definitely expected that to "sound" louder than a more baked in mid-scooped Aggie TH500 :) 

You’re there anyway - that baked in mid-scoop was def a step quieter - but then again, it was a Markbass cab........

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5 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Hmmm...you're going to have to explain that one to me.

SPL is surely is going to be a function of the efficiency of the cab? An output watt from one amp fed (to the same cab) by one amp is surely going to be the same as an output watt from another amp? I know there's a separate debate around "tube watts" being louder. But for me, anyway, that is less about SPL and more about complex harmonics and the way we hear something as being loud.

If ebozz is playing his three amps through the same cabs...

I've got a total of three cabs. A pair of old Genz Benz GB-12Ts (8 ohm) and a Boom Bass Cabinet Tank 1012 (4 ohm). The 12Ts have more of an old school vibe and the Tank is more modern sounding. Basses? I'm down to three total. Two Maruszczyk Elwoods (4 & 5) with rounds and a Fender Player Series P strung with flats.

Each of my amps has different characteristics. With the controls set flat on each, the Veyron M is the more modern sounding of the three. The Quilter is probably the most vintage sounding but more because of it's feel than it's tone in my opinion. It doesn't have the top end of the Veyron but it may be more precise in it's articulation. The Ashdown is somewhere between those two.

When taking those differences into consideration while comparing the three, the Veyron is just as loud to my ears. Different but just as loud....

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13 hours ago, ebozzz said:

When taking those differences into consideration while comparing the three, the Veyron is just as loud to my ears. Different but just as loud....

I presume you've done the "obvious test" of setting all three amps at full volume settings through a particular cab and then adjusting the volume using the control on your bass (so as not to get evicted!)?

If you do that then you'll be able to hear when the volumes sound pretty similar and can note what volume dial setting on the bass you have. Be interesting to hear back what the volume dial settings on your bass are for equal volume?

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While we're on the subject of value for money imitations, and the fact that ebozzz is using a Quilter BB800,  I've just come across this, which seems to be a Quilter "tribute" amp and half the price.

There may already be a thread on this, but I've missed it if there was. Looks like an interesting alternative in the value range, particularly for someone looking for a compact back-up amp.

I'm guessing this is a genuine "800W" RMS amp at 4ohms, rather than a "fake news" 2000W amp? :) 

image.jpeg.e47ab85e02e08ff457566f6e908c208d.jpeg

 

Edited by Al Krow

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Strange one last night. Pub wasn't ready for us so we ended up setting up in a rush. No proper sound check.

I basically plugged in and played tweaking the sound of the Veyron as I went along.

Thought I'd be eating my words. Could not get any of that elusive heft from it. Sound was just a bit gutless. Turns out I'd wound the compressor/limiter knob way up to nearly one o'clock. 

In the break I had another look and dialled it right back and presto! Heft, weight, depth, ooomph, boom, bang and wallop a plenty.

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57 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

I presume you've done the "obvious test" of setting all three amps at full volume settings through a particular cab and then adjusting the volume using the control on your bass (so as not to get evicted!)?

If you do that then you'll be able to hear when the volumes sound pretty similar and can note what volume dial setting on the bass you have. Be interesting to hear back what the volume dial settings on your bass are for equal volume?

No it wouldn’t 😂😉

You’re severely overthinking it @Al Krow

its a decent sub £300 head which will do the job most gigging bassists require of it. Does it do 2000w? I doubt it but few amps do without near perfect conditions.  Go back and read the TC electronic stuff from years about misleading output figures - no different from VW and it’s emissions numbers on paper.

Is it loud enough for a gig? The evidence would suggest so. Luckily one could buy three or four as rolling back ups over the years and probably have little to worry about. 

 

Edited by krispn
Not facetious enough ;)

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@krispn

Nah! It's one of those simple tests "you can do at home" and ebozzz I'm sure will be up for it! :)

And he has some useful benchmarks. 

We all know it's not a 2000W amp. But if it really is 500W or even better 800W then that's plenty and my little test should put that particular Q to bed. ebo... 😴 style... 

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6 minutes ago, krispn said:

You try testing a 500w amp at full pelt in the family home in a Sunday. I dare ya 😀

Ah you missed the bit about keeping the volume down using the volume dial on ebo😴 's bass.

Sometimes you need to "over think" these things...😂

 

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50 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Ah you missed the bit about keeping the volume down using the volume dial on ebo😴 's bass.

Sometimes you need to "over think" these things...😂

 

What’s the point in Internet forums if you can’t overthink things, discuss stuff that’s broadly irrelevant for hours on end, or postulate opinions and discuss minute details on stuff you’re unlikely to ever own or use? 😁

Edited by Bridgehouse
  • Haha 3

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I'm assuming the test was carried out around 11am when it was nice and quiet.

  • Haha 2

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3 hours ago, Al Krow said:

While we're on the subject of value for money imitations, and the fact that ebozzz is using a Quilter BB800,  I've just come across this, which seems to be a Quilter "tribute" amp and half the price.

There may already be a thread on this, but I've missed it if there was. Looks like an interesting alternative in the value range, particularly for someone looking for a compact back-up amp.

I'm guessing this is a genuine "800W" RMS amp at 4ohms, rather than a "fake news" 2000W amp? :) 

image.jpeg.e47ab85e02e08ff457566f6e908c208d.jpeg

 

I'm still perplexed as to why you keep saying things like "fake news" 2000W amp" when no definitive proof has been offered that it's not the 2000 watts PEAK that Bugera claims. 

 

Edited by ebozzz
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It's fake news in the sense they're using an output measure that no one else commonly is. RMS is industry standard.

So clearly they're hyping their product and deliberately looking to mislead the general public. We on BC are quite happy to delve into the difference between peak watts and RMS watts and generally nerd out about gear. But that's not necessarily going to be true for many in the bass purchasing community. 

And tbf, it works. Bugera only got my interest because they described themselves as having a 2000W amp. If they had said 500W, I may well not  even have noticed. 

Edited by Al Krow

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1 minute ago, Al Krow said:

It's fake news in the sense they're using an output measure that no one else commonly is. RMS is industry standard.

So clearly they're hyping their product and deliberately looking to mislead the general public. We on BC are quite happy to delve into the difference between peak watts and RMS watts and generally nerd out about gear. But that's not necessarily going to be true for many in the bass purchasing community. 

And tbf, it works. Bugera only got my interest because they described themselves as having a 2000W amp. If they had said 500W, I may well not  even have noticed. 

Al, once again, there is no industry standard. RMS is what some manufacturers use and others don't. Doesn't make what they claim to be fake just because they don't use what YOU want them to use....

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1 minute ago, ebozzz said:

Al, once again, there is no industry standard. RMS is what some manufacturers use and others don't. Doesn't make what they claim to be fake just because they don't use what YOU want them to use....

Choosing to use Peak output is an odd one though - it’s not common in bass amps. 

Why choose peak? It may not be fake but the cynic in me says it was chosen to give a headline number to grab attention. Not strictly wrong, but there’s half a chance the not so savvy punter would be led to believe it was 1500w more than a 500w anpnfrom another manufacturer...

 

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Just now, Bridgehouse said:

Choosing to use Peak output is an odd one though - it’s not common in bass amps. 

Why choose peak? It may not be fake but the cynic in me says it was chosen to give a headline number to grab attention. Not strictly wrong, but there’s half a chance the not so savvy punter would be led to believe it was 1500w more than a 500w anpnfrom another manufacturer...

 

Is it really?

https://www.trickfishamps.com/amplifiers/bullhead-1k/

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Just now, Bridgehouse said:

Should I link all the amps currently available that measure output in RMS?

I'm not disputing the fact that MANY manufacturers use RMS ratings. I'm saying that it's not the industry standard or ALL manufacturers would be required to use it. I can list several reputable manufacturers that don't.

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2 minutes ago, ebozzz said:

I'm not disputing the fact that MANY manufacturers use RMS ratings. I'm saying that it's not the industry standard or ALL manufacturers would be required to use it. I can list several reputable manufacturers that don't.

Agreed - I don’t think we are at odds on this. I think the point I’m making (and @Al Krow as well) is that they have chosen peak to grab attention and there is the potential there to mislead the average punter.. after all, this thread started with “is this really 2000w for £250??” So doubt is cast there already...

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8 minutes ago, Bridgehouse said:

Agreed - I don’t think we are at odds on this. I think the point I’m making (and @Al Krow as well) is that they have chosen peak to grab attention and there is the potential there to mislead the average punter.. after all, this thread started with “is this really 2000w for £250??” So doubt is cast there already...

Did Trickfish choose peak for the same reasons? How about Quilter?

https://www.quilterlabs.com/index.php/productpage/bass-block-800

Pat Quilter was the "Q" in QSC.
Isn't RMS based on a continuous signal? Is bass playing continuous or peaky? As for the doubt being cast, Al doesn't seem to have ANY doubt about that Harley Benton amp which costs about the same. Harley Benton didn't make their amp either!

Edited by ebozzz

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our Yamaha mixer amp is rated at 500 watts per channel , it's actually 125 watts per channel nominal, which I assume is RMS, anyway even they're at

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29 minutes ago, ebozzz said:

Did Trickfish choose peak for the same reasons? How about Quilter?

https://www.quilterlabs.com/index.php/productpage/bass-block-800

Pat Quilter was the "Q" in QSC.
Isn't RMS based on a continuous signal? Is bass playing continuous or peaky? As for the doubt being cast, Al doesn't seem to have ANY doubt about that Harley Benton amp which costs about the same. Harley Benton didn't make their amp either!

I don’t think we are going to get anywhere with this, are we?

In my opinion, and it’s just that - my opinion, and rightly or wrongly, and of course I am more than happy for others to say I am wrong or disagree, I think that in this particular case, they have chosen to use peak to give them an eye catching “2000w” figure to use. 

The thing is, if I take their figure at face value, I’m going to really struggle to find a bass cab which is rated highly enough to cope with an output this big - I’d be constantly worried that it would blow the speakers. 

Edited by Bridgehouse

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16 minutes ago, Bridgehouse said:

I don’t think we are going to get anywhere with this, are we?

In my opinion, and it’s just that - my opinion, and rightly or wrongly, and of course I am more than happy for others to say I am wrong or disagree, I think that in this particular case, they have chosen to use peak to give them an eye catching “2000w” figure to use. 

The thing is, if I take their figure at face value, I’m going to really struggle to find a bass cab which is rated highly enough to cope with an output this big - I’d be constantly worried that it would blow the speakers. 

I guess we aren't. You & Al seem to feel that Bugera listed their ratings for some nefarious reasons that you can't see beyond while I simply use what they stated as a baseline to get me in the ballpark of what I needed in an amp. Let's face it, if they had said it was 200 watts peak I would not have considered it. Even with their claimed specifications, the amp would still have to perform for my needs. It does. The same would be true of any amp regardless of how it was rated. It would have to meet my performance expectations.  Let me ask this. Is the 1000 watts @ 8 ohms that Trickfish claims "eye catching"? Have you ever had an amp that was rated using RMS that under performed?

As for finding cabs that will handle the stated output, my old pair of 8 ohm Genz Benz cabs are rated at 150 watts RMS. I've been using them with amps of various power since early 2000 without problems and I've never had any issues with getting the volume that I need or the cabs being able to handle the signal that I send their way. Now, I do listen to them and I'm not a gear abuser. I don't have a clue what their peak rating is but it's obviously more than 150 watts. The cabs work with each of my amps just fine. My 4 ohm Tank 1012 is rated at 600 watts RMS and 1200 watts peak. If my Ashdown & Quilter are 800 watts RMS @ 4 ohms, would that not put them in the range of 2000 watts peak?

 

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Interesting you mentioned Trickfish. I had exactly the same reaction when I discovered their Bullhead 1K was 1000W peak and not RMS, because I do think in terms of RMS generally for amps and my immediate thoughts were (i) well it's gone from being comparable to my DG M900 to approx half the power rating and (ii) why were they trying to pull the wool over my eyes by using an uncommon rating? 

Ok there may be no industry "standard" in the formal legal sense, but it's certainly what the majority of amp manufacturers are using.

So we have Bugera and Trickfish using peak for the amp ratings to describe their amps.

Who else? It would actually be useful to know how common peak rating usage is with bass amp makers.

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