Compressors

[Al Krow]

7 minutes ago, BrunoBass said:

I wish you could rent pedals for say a week, to see if you get on with them in a real world environment. I always feel like I’m buying blind and some of them are too expensive to just take a chance on. I wouldn’t buy a bass or an amp without trying it first, it’s a pity you can’t with pedals.

I've found with s/h pedals you can usually move them on for not much more cost than the postage, so it kinda works out as "free rental" and you can hold on to them for as long as you like and are not limited to returning within a week.

Edited August 17, 2018 by Al Krow

[Al Krow]

I guess where I think I am landing on the whole compression subject is as follows:

Compression in the studio for recordings and in the hands of expert sound engineers makes complete sense. Precision and perfection are the order of the day. 

But on a bassist's pedal board in a live mix with band members wearing ear protection? Frankly if any band member (or indeed anyone in the audience) can tell you "blindfold" when your comp is on or off (e.g. if you were to "kick it off" mid song), well they have way better hearing than me! I'd really like to challenge my fellow BCer's to try doing that sometime - I think it's a very fair way to test whether (sometimes expensive) compressors on bassists’ pedal boards in a live mix are genuinely useful.

[ped]

7 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

I guess where I think I am landing on the whole compression subject is as follows:

Compression in the studio for recordings and in the hands of expert sound engineers makes complete sense. Precision and perfection are the order of the day. 

But on a bassist's pedal board in a live mix with band members wearing ear protection? Frankly if any band member (or indeed anyone in the audience) can tell you "blindfold" when your comp is on or off (e.g. if you were to "kick it off" mid song), well they have way better hearing than me! I'd really like to challenge my fellow BCer's to try doing that sometime - I think it's a very fair way to test whether (sometimes expensive) compressors on bassists’ pedal boards in a live mix are genuinely useful.

I use a limiter and it makes a huge difference. It doesn’t change the sound or dynamics but it prevents any big spikes and gives my bass a definitive ‘level’ which I can be sure will sit in the mix consistently. Especially on the bass notes, I say it makes more of a ‘click’ than a ‘boom’. It also means when I dig in the bass growls up to that ‘wall’ as opposed to making everything else seem quiet. Essential imo!

[Al Krow]

19 minutes ago, ped said:

I use a limiter and it makes a huge difference. It doesn’t change the sound or dynamics but it prevents any big spikes and gives my bass a definitive ‘level’ which I can be sure will sit in the mix consistently. Especially on the bass notes, I say it makes more of a ‘click’ than a ‘boom’. It also means when I dig in the bass growls up to that ‘wall’ as opposed to making everything else seem quiet. Essential imo!

Yup agreed. I think a quality limiter is definitely the way forward particularly for those of us who use envelope filters or synths to prevent big spikes (and protect our cabs in the process). I think a limiter in combination with something like a Thumpinator (HPF) to strip out low end crud, you have the perfect 'sentries' in your pedal chain.

What quality limiters would you recommend checking out?

[ped]

8 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Yup agreed. I think a quality limiter is definitely the way forward particularly for those of us who use envelope filters or synths to prevent big spikes (and protect our cabs in the process). I think a limiter in combination with something like a Thumpinator (HPF) to strip out low end crud, you have the perfect 'sentries' in your pedal chain.

What quality limiters would you recommend checking out?

Well, as I’m sure you know you can make any compressor with infinity ratio act like a limiter. I tend to find in most respects when set up correctly they all sound the same, except for differences like noise, footprint and other settings to play with. I actually find the Boss LMB3 a great limiter, and the enhancer has a place in some applications, like livening up a woolly sounding house amp at certain venues. With enough tweaking for a given instrument I’ve found the limiters in my Roland and Zoom units to be excellent. 

[Al Krow]

14 minutes ago, ped said:

With enough tweaking for a given instrument I’ve found the limiters in my Roland and Zoom units to be excellent. 

I was just thinking that exploring the limiter in my Zoom MS-60B would be a great starting point.  

E.g. I can set up a patch with Limiter + HPF + para EQ (or GEQ) as the "clean by-pass" on this and then simply add Limiter & HPF as appropriate to all other effects patches for good measure.

How effective the Zoom will be compared to something like Boss LMB3 is a moot point; but if you're saying the Zoom effect is "excellent" it's definitely worth trying out. Ok I'll add to my homework list  

[ped]

21 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

I was just thinking that exploring the limiter in my Zoom MS-60B would be a great starting point.  

E.g. I can set up a patch with Limiter + HPF + para EQ (or GEQ) as the "clean by-pass" on this and then simply add Limiter & HPF as appropriate to all other effects patches for good measure.

How effective the Zoom will be compared to something like Boss LMB3 is a moot point; but if you're saying the Zoom effect is "excellent" it's definitely worth trying out. Ok I'll add to my homework list  

Yes, the B1on limiter at least is great - though it can add noise if you aren’t careful. I’ve found when toggling a control in the B1on sometimes changing the value by just 1 will introduce noise and that might go away if you go up one more, for example. It can be fiddly but I managed to make a really quiet ‘clean’ patch by taking time to balance the DI5, limiter,para EQ and modreverb. That said, there’s still some slight noise you can hear as a note decays, for example - but then from a £20 battery powered pedal I expected much worse. Not a problem in the Roland of course but I do love how compact the little Zoom is  

I love how you also set yourself ‘Effects Homework’ 😂 quite often I’ll think to myself ‘hm I wonder if I add a phaser to that synth how it’ll sound with some tremlo’ Or bookmark a song with a nice synth sound and clear my diary so I can sit all day and make it. 👍🏼

[Al Krow]

I've just been reading up on reviews on the Boss LMB3 that the 'enhancer' is basically pants(!) as it adds hiss / noise to the signal but the limiter is great. Also that the Behringer BLE400 is pretty identical to the Boss in function but is more plastic in finish.

Spotted a Behringer in vgc going for £18 posted on Amazon. Well at that price, definitely worth my having a punt  

Edited August 17, 2018 by Al Krow

[Cuzzie]

I am pretty sure we all decided the kick in test on the compressor was fairly useless, and ad nauseam said why, and I even showed you an example where it did make a difference.

When you kick in you filters and synths mid song with band does it make a massive difference to the band and audience when you play?

Why not challenge the other way and not kick in the Synth when you are supposed to in the song and see if anyone notices the song without it was less than it should be??

 

[Al Krow]

2 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

When you kick in you filters and synths mid song with band does it make a massive difference to the band and audience when you play?

Yes absolutely, 100%, no question. You'd have to be tone deaf not to hear a filter or synth being kicked in!

Music is about sound. So if something doesn't make an audible difference when played live, as a live musician you've been sold snake oil. 

I'm not questioning the use of compressors by expert sound engineers in the studio, that makes complete sense in that context.

[Cuzzie]

How is that quantified?

have you played a song to an audience once with the  filters/synth etc. You would normally use And then the same song (can be a different audience if you wish) with non of your pedals on?

Or even if you have more than one song in a set requires you to use your filter pedals use them for one song and not another?

Did the audience/band members get up in disgust and throw rotten tomatoes?

So my challenge is essentially don’t use the filters you normally would when you play live and see if anyone notices.

Another question then, if compression makes sense in a studio context, why does it not make sense in a live context if you are after a similar musical experience. If you aim to play tight, why not use tools in your arsenal to keep it even tighter and even?

 

Edited August 17, 2018 by Cuzzie

[MartinB]

If I didn't use a limiter when playing live, then every time I got to a bit with slapping/popping the audience would be deafened by massive volume spikes.

[uk_lefty]

56 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

I've just been reading up on reviews on the Boss LMB3 that the 'enhancer' is basically pants(!) as it adds hiss / noise to the signal but the limiter is great

Not true. From my experience the enhancer is great, the limiter not so much. It's probably all about what instrument, what you want from the pedal, what other stuff is in your chain. But I find the enhancer on its recommended setting out of the manual great for fretless, I want it to bring out the slides etc with a bit more emphasis and it does that for me just fine without affecting anything else. I am starting to use the limiter now in my chain after an EHX Battalion and it does more for me after that pedal so I am warming to it now, but it needs some time spending on tweaking.

[Al Krow]

44 minutes ago, uk_lefty said:

Not true. From my experience the enhancer is great, the limiter not so much. It's probably all about what instrument, what you want from the pedal, what other stuff is in your chain. But I find the enhancer on its recommended setting out of the manual great for fretless, I want it to bring out the slides etc with a bit more emphasis and it does that for me just fine without affecting anything else. I am starting to use the limiter now in my chain after an EHX Battalion and it does more for me after that pedal so I am warming to it now, but it needs some time spending on tweaking.

Well that's good news, you've potentially significantly enhanced the value of the £18 Behringer BLE400 I've got on order from Amazon. Could be worth as much as £20 now 😂

46 minutes ago, MartinB said:

If I didn't use a limiter when playing live, then every time I got to a bit with slapping/popping the audience would be deafened by massive volume spikes.

^^ Yes. For envelope filter and synths users and slap bass players, a Limiter would seem to be a 'must have' piece of kit. (And actually the guy who runs our rehearsal studio has basically said he'll only let me DI direct into the PA if there's a Limiter to protect his gear).

Which one do you use?

Edited August 17, 2018 by Al Krow

[Osiris]

@Les Elvin Compression is a really useful tool, and despite what has been said earlier in this thread, it definitely has its place in a live situation as well as for recording. The trouble is that it is a subtle effect, if you are thinking of it as an effect like a chorus or drive pedal, then it is not at all obvious when set up correctly. They are used to control the dynamic range of your bass signal. As such, they are not always apparent - but that doesn't mean that it is not doing its job or isn't working. The job of a compressor is to keep your signal in check, not to wow the audience with a sonic gimmick. 

If you trawl through some of the other bass chat threads on compression you'll see there is a lot of talk about about the subject including a number of widely repeated misconceptions e.g. compression killing your dynamics. They don't. Not when they are set up correctly. But if you have time, read through some of these other threads because there is some great information in there that may answer your original question. 

And here's the obligatory link to the most valuable resource on bass compression on the net - http://www.ovnilab.com/ I'd definitely recommend you read the FAQ section before going any further - http://www.ovnilab.com/faq.shtml

Compression is a bit of a dark art and if you want to use one it's worth doing some homework to get an understanding of what they do, how the various controls interact with one another, and how to set one up to its optimum settings, so it is keeping the signal spikes in check whilst still giving you control over your dynamics. Once you have found the right settings, they are hugely rewarding in terms of what they can do for your bass sound. Some are transparent and will keep everything in check and stop the big spikes in your playing overloading your amp, some can colour your sound in a useful way, others will give your sound a real punch - where every note from the highest to the lowest will stand out in the band mix. Some will do all of these things. 

For the record, a decent compressor is an essential tool for me, it is the only bell or whistle in my rig. Bass into a compressor into my rig. That's it. 

And you don't need to spend a fortune either, the various Zoom pedals have some cracking compressor models, the Boss LMB-3 (which is actually a compressor and limiter) and the TC Electronics Spectracomp are all excellent compressors that don't break the bank.  

[Al Krow]

51 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

1. How is that quantified?

2. Have you played a song to an audience once with the  filters/synth etc. You would normally use and then the same song (can be a different audience if you wish) with non of your pedals on? Or even if you have more than one song in a set requires you to use your filter pedals use them for one song and not another?

3. Did the audience/band members get up in disgust and throw rotten tomatoes?

4. So my challenge is essentially don’t use the filters you normally would when you play live and see if anyone notices.

5. Another question then, if compression makes sense in a studio context, why does it not make sense in a live context if you are after a similar musical experience. If you aim to play tight, why not use tools in your arsenal to keep it even tighter and even?

 

1. You can hear the difference, people would notice.

2. Let's go back one step, would I or the band easily notice? (Answer = 1)

3. Nope, of course not. 

4. It's kinda obvious that they would, right? 

5. The answer for me is simple: the control, precision and multiple retakes in a studio, with a trained sound engineer, that results in a quality recording and is played back by a listener in the comfort of his own home through a decent hi-fi or set of headphones is a million miles apart from the sound an audience hears at the sort of gigs most of us play at (pubs, clubs, functions, weddings). For the live gigging bassist in our circumstances no one is going to notice you using a compressor; and the same goes for band members particularly if they're being sensible and have ear plugs in. If no one can hear any difference then frankly it's a mirage.

 

Edited August 17, 2018 by Al Krow

[Osiris]

3 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

The answer for me is simple: the control, precision and multiple retakes in a studio, with a trained sound engineer, that results in a quality recording and is played back by a listener in the comfort of his own home through a decent hi-fi or set of headphones is a million miles apart from the sound an audience hears at the sort of gigs most of us play at (pubs, clubs, functions, weddings).

True.

4 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

For the live gigging bassist in our circumstances no one is going to notice you using a compressor; and the same goes for band members particularly if they're being sensible and have ear plugs in. If no one can hear any difference then frankly it's a mirage.

Just because you cannot hear it working in the same way you can hear something like a drive pedal or a delay, that doesn't automatically equate to it being pointless, or mean that it is not performing an extremely useful task.

11 minutes ago, Osiris said:

The job of a compressor is to keep your signal in check, not to wow the audience with a sonic gimmick. 

 

 

[Cuzzie]

@Al Krow so all that is presumed answers to questions, if you want compressor users to switch on and off live, will you do the same with your effects?

If you have a compressor did you try it out yourself?

You may be right about what live listeners want, maybe they want an almighty synth fuzzy wall of sound with no definition, I dunno, I am getting too old maybe....

[Al Krow]

18 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

@Al Krow so all that is presumed answers to questions, if you want compressor users to switch on and off live, will you do the same with your effects?

If you have a compressor did you try it out yourself?

You may be right about what live listeners want, maybe they want an almighty synth fuzzy wall of sound with no definition, I dunno, I am getting too old maybe....

Yes I did. There's very little difference where it would be most noticeable with just me, amp and bass at home.

I know folk talk about its importance "in the mix". But seriously guys - nuances / subtleties of bass tone are completely lost in a full band setting. And then add ear plugs and bandmates barely notice dirt let alone something as subtle as compression!

@Osiris "The job of a compressor is to keep your signal in check, not to wow the audience with a sonic gimmick." 

Or you could maybe just use your fingers to both keep your signal in check AND wow the audience? 

(And yes I do contrast with using a Limiter for filter and synth users and slap bass players to protect against unwanted spikes to protect our cabs).

Edited August 17, 2018 by Al Krow

[Cuzzie]

Ok, if we are not using our effects live, yes I did it at home and yes it made a difference.

Also done in band practice - yes it made a difference

Also done live, yes it made a difference positively.

Done the same with filters in all scenarios listed above, not always the same joyous result.

Let us know how you get on

[uk_lefty]

1 hour ago, MartinB said:

If I didn't use a limiter when playing live, then every time I got to a bit with slapping/popping the audience would be deafened by massive volume spikes.

That's my thinking too. My playing style isn't very consistent, different pedals give me differing volumes, and I'm never quite sure when the mood will take me to play with thumb, pick, fingertips gently or fingertips digging in. Because I am so inconsistent in the dynamics I'm sending to the amp a compressor, even the basic one knob compressor on my amp, is something I need to be using a lot.

[MartinB]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

^^ Yes. For envelope filter and synths users and slap bass players, a Limiter would seem to be a 'must have' piece of kit. (And actually the guy who runs our rehearsal studio has basically said he'll only let me DI direct into the PA if there's a Limiter to protect his gear).

Which one do you use?

Keeley Bassist. A lot of money for a pedal - and they've gone up by another £50 since I bought mine - but it does its job extremely well, doesn't alter tone, and is dead easy to dial in.

I also started using it for general compression (instead of limiting) when I joined a second band. Since I was going to be playing with a pick most of the time, and that's not something I'd done much before, I thought it would help to smooth out my level a bit while I got the hang of it. What I've found since then is that I actually really like the extra punch that the compression gives - the initial attack effectively gets emphasised, because the rest of the note gets de-emphasised.

Edited August 17, 2018 by MartinB

[Osiris]

2 hours ago, Al Krow said:

I know folk talk about its importance "in the mix". But seriously guys - nuances / subtleties of bass tone are completely lost in a full band setting. And then add ear plugs and bandmates barely notice dirt let alone something as subtle as compression!

 

2 hours ago, Osiris said:

Just because you cannot hear it working in the same way you can hear something like a drive pedal or a delay, that doesn't automatically equate to it being pointless, or mean that it is not performing an extremely useful task.

 

2 hours ago, Osiris said:

The job of a compressor is to keep your signal in check, not to wow the audience with a sonic gimmick. 

[Osiris]

Just now, Osiris said:

 

 

And yes, Florence is flipping you the bird @Al Krow 

[BrunoBass]

6 hours ago, Al Krow said:

I've just been reading up on reviews on the Boss LMB3 that the 'enhancer' is basically pants(!) as it adds hiss / noise to the signal but the limiter is great. Also that the Behringer BLE400 is pretty identical to the Boss in function but is more plastic in finish.

Spotted a Behringer in vgc going for £18 posted on Amazon. Well at that price, definitely worth my having a punt  

I’d be interested to hear what you think of the Behringer pedal when you receive it.