Jump to content
Jus Lukin

Barefaced FR/FR?

Recommended Posts

RE:TKS - they may sound nice with guitars - but they certainly aren't FRFR - and running the risk of having my head bitten off, neither is the BigTwin2.

I honestly think that if you want a true FRFR, you are looking at having a cab with inbuilt DSP to make it flat... or at least having an external processing device pre your power amps to make the signal to your cab as flat response as it can.

Edited by EBS_freak

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I quite fancy going the FRFR route...but to be honest, if I find a band who use something like the Bose Line array things...I'll probably just go straight into the PA.

EDIT: Not quite straight...through some kind of amp/cab sim.

Edited by paul h

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


I quite fancy going the FRFR route...but to be honest, if I find a band who use something like the Bose Line array things...I'll probably just go straight into the PA.

EDIT: Not quite straight...through some kind of amp/cab sim.


Those Bose Line arrays are no potent enough for bass to use in a band environment... unless it's acoustic. Edited by Dad3353

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Those Bose Line arrays are no potent enough for bass to use in a band environment... unless it's acoustic.



Even the bigger ones? I thought they were aimed for full bands? Edited by Dad3353

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Even the bigger ones? I thought they were aimed for full bands?


Gosh, there's that marketing in play again - although to be fair, it depends upon which system you are talking about.

So, the L1s... Yeah, they are sold on this whole premise that you don't need monitors either - and you can have the speakers behind you so you can hear yourself. (and do you really want foh volumes rushing directly past your ears?)

Spoiler - they still feedback like any other system!

The new Bose systems, the F1 - well, A/B them against any comparably priced system and let me know what you think! To be fair to Bose, their marketing game has been strong on the F1... but whether it actually holds water... well, I've probably already said too much in this thread already on that front. Don't want it derailing again.

*Apologies if anybody with Bose gear takes offence* Edited by Dad3353

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Gosh, there's that marketing in play again - although to be fair, it depends upon which system you are talking about.

So, the L1s... Yeah, they are sold on this whole premise that you don't need monitors either - and you can have the speakers behind you so you can hear yourself. (and do you really want foh volumes rushing directly past your ears?)

Spoiler - they still feedback like any other system!

The new Bose systems, the F1 - well, A/B them against any comparably priced system and let me know what you think! To be fair to Bose, their marketing game has been strong on the F1... but whether it actually holds water... well, I've probably already said too much in this thread already on that front. Don't want it derailing again.

*Apologies if anybody with Bose gear takes offence*



Yeah the L1's are definitely aimed the acoustic/duo type of act. I have seen/heard a couple of the larger systems (No idea of the actual product names) with the woofers being used...not sure if they had the bass going through them...probably not to be honest. But they sounded great to my ears...and a very even sound throughout the venue.

And I have seen them feedback too...but I imagine that's partly user error. Also it's not a huge deal to put the vocals through a TC Helicon pedal with feedback suppression on it.

Still, if they work and there is no need for monitors I would absolutely be happy just to dump the whole amp/cab thing altogether! :D Edited by Dad3353

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was intrigued when I first saw the Bose columns, but having seen a guy use them singing to tracks before a gig once, I wasn't so impressed. The low end was great,full and round, but the mids seemed very subdued with an overly bright top end. And of course the system fed back as much as any other PA with a mic in front of it. I also noticed that mid-drop and overly crisp top end with one used for background music in a venue.

Lots of factors in play beyond just the column, but it certainly wasn't a cure-all kind of setup.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Yeah the L1's are definitely aimed the acoustic/duo type of act. I have seen/heard a couple of the larger systems (No idea of the actual product names) with the woofers being used...not sure if they had the bass going through them...probably not to be honest. But they sounded great to my ears...and a very even sound throughout the venue.

And I have seen them feedback too...but I imagine that's partly user error. Also it's not a huge deal to put the vocals through a TC Helicon pedal with feedback suppression on it.

Still, if they work and there is no need for monitors I would absolutely be happy just to dump the whole amp/cab thing altogether! :D


A TC Helicon with feedback suppression is not the answer. :P Tune your PA to the room and a great deal of your feedback issues will disappear. If you want to use feedback suppression devices, best to do it on your main outputs, not your pre you PA preamps.

I'm a big convert in ditching the amp/cab thing and letting the PA do the work. Everything out front just sounds much, much nicer... and at the end of the day, thats what we want the punters to hear isn't it? Edited by Dad3353

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


I was intrigued when I first saw the Bose columns, but having seen a guy use them singing to tracks before a gig once, I wasn't so impressed. The low end was great,full and round, but the mids seemed very subdued with an overly bright top end. And of course the system fed back as much as any other PA with a mic in front of it. I also noticed that mid-drop and overly crisp top end with one used for background music in a venue.

Lots of factors in play beyond just the column, but it certainly wasn't a cure-all kind of setup.


Funnily enough, that is probably the one situation where I would recommend somebody getting such a setup... based on the fact that it is small and portable and will do a compromised job OK. The top is bright - but comes with a lot of distortion. Makes for tired ears for the listeners - and yes, there is that big mid dip.

The system, if not used correctly,will feed back as you say, as it subscribes to the same laws of physics as everything else. The tonematch mixer gives you very little to work with to combat feedback though! Edited by Dad3353

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Wooks79 said:

 


If you were buying a cab to cover both guitar and bass through a kemper or similar right now, what would you buy? And the stipulation of mine is... it HAS to look like a cab, not a pa speaker?
 

 

 


This may provide some inspiration.

PA cab +

 

 

Black-Veil-Brides-fake-cabs.jpg

Edited by Dad3353

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know a friend's band ("Definitely Britpop") who use a pair of the bigger Bose Line arrays with the Bose subs. They get on just fine with everything going just through it, including the bass, I think.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


A TC Helicon with feedback suppression is not the answer. :P Tune your PA to the room and a great deal of your feedback issues will disappear. If you want to use feedback suppression devices, best to do it on your main outputs, not your pre you PA preamps.

I'm a big convert in ditching the amp/cab thing and letting the PA do the work. Everything out front just sounds much, much nicer... and at the end of the day, thats what we want the punters to hear isn't it?



I've seen a Helicon pedal used through a regular style PA in a rehearsal space and it worked extremely well. It may not be THE answer but it is a perfectly valid option that might help when having feedback issues.

But absolutely agree that if you can get everything through the PA front of house sound is vastly improved. Edited by Dad3353

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


I know a friend's band ("Definitely Britpop") who use a pair of the bigger Bose Line arrays with the Bose subs. They get on just fine with everything going just through it, including the bass, I think.



That's good to know. I have a project lined up where one of the vocalists has a couple of the bigger Bose columns...but I'd be playing guitar. If I can get away with going through my pedal board straight in...that would be heaven :D Edited by Dad3353

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


I know a friend's band ("Definitely Britpop") who use a pair of the bigger Bose Line arrays with the Bose subs. They get on just fine with everything going just through it, including the bass, I think.


I'm not saying that they don't... It would be interesting to hear the difference between similar priced non Bose vs Bose setups though.

Just to clarify, the F1s will take bass. The comment around being lacking in bass is around the L1s. Edited by Dad3353

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I played bass last night at a low-volume open mic where the PA was a single Bose L1, operated by a guy who knows what he's doing. No bass rig was supplied. There were two small combos for the guitarists so all that went through the PA were the vocals.

And my bass, a Takamine TB10.

Played very quietly, the Bose L1 sounded fine. As soon as I started to push it the sound went horribly wrong, all farty and grim.

My Fishman SA220 is WAY better than that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


I'm not saying that they don't... It would be interesting to hear the difference between similar priced non Bose vs Bose setups though.

Just to clarify, the F1s will take bass. The comment around being lacking in bass is around the L1s.



That's fair enough...think we had a little wire cross there because I never mentioned the L1. I will take a look at the F1s then...but it sounds like those are the ones I've heard.

I too would be interested in hearing a non Bose line array setup. They seem to be getting increasingly common with different manufacturers.

What I really want is a band that already has the F1s, knows how to dial them in properly, and that won't mind me rocking up with just a guitar/bass and a couple of pedals :D Edited by Dad3353

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
EBS_freak said:

 

 


This may provide some inspiration.

PA cab +

Black-Veil-Brides-fake-cabs.jpg.db4e072ee4ab90622a95fdf5954c6c46.jpg

 

 

 


One of the most disappointing gigs I've ever been to was a recent My Vitriol gig, where they took this all too far, had line6 variaxs going through the PA, no back line at all, bassist not there, just on a laptop, and the drummer was using an electric kit...

Now I'm no Luddite, but it was just too much (or too little?) and there was no weight to it, you didn't feel like you were at a rock gig at all, and it sucked all the atmosphere out of it, it all sounded too polite... I wanna avoid going that far.

I deffo wanna keep myself with a back line, and I'm hoping an frfr cab of some kind would meet all my needs.

 

Edited by Dad3353

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


That's fair enough...think we had a little wire cross there because I never mentioned the L1. I will take a look at the F1s then...but it sounds like those are the ones I've heard.

I too would be interested in hearing a non Bose line array setup. They seem to be getting increasingly common with different manufacturers.

What I really want is a band that already has the F1s, knows how to dial them in properly, and that won't mind me rocking up with just a guitar/bass and a couple of pedals :D


Should probably clarify I mean standard boxes vs Bose line array (or any other line array in that price range really). My experience has shown me that array systems are pretty disappointing in smaller venues. K-Array seem the best - and are certainly way ahead of the competition - however, the dispersion is still narrow, so for most applications, unless you are playing some very large venues, standard boxes will serve you better than an array. Edited by Dad3353

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


One of the most disappointing gigs I've ever been to was a recent My Vitriol gig, where they took this all too far, had line6 variaxs going through the PA, no back line at all, bassist not there, just on a laptop, and the drummer was using an electric kit...

Now I'm no Luddite, but it was just too much (or too little?) and there was no weight to it, you didn't feel like you were at a rock gig at all, and it sucked all the atmosphere out of it, it all sounded too polite... I wanna avoid going that far.

I deffo wanna keep myself with a back line, and I'm hoping an frfr cab of some kind would meet all my needs.


I'm guessing this was at a fairly small venue and you were standing close to the stage? If you think about a stadium gig (and yes, I do realise I am probably going the polar opposite there), the fact whether there is backline or not, is irrelevant as you won't hear it over the FOH PA anyway. In a small venue, you aren't going to get any bleed from the backline if there isn't any... but I would also wager there is no front fills meaning that the only sound you are hearing are from the L and R FOH which may be too far away from your (and off axis :P) for you to get the full benefit of what they are doing.

If there were subs and front fill in front of you, there's no reason why these guys (sorry, I'm not aware of your work) should be ripping your face out with the PA. It seriously sounds like the venue isn't best suited to that band - at the moment. No smaller venue bothers with front fill due to the amount of bleed from the stage... and it's why sometimes the vocals in small venues sound a bit lacking. I believe as the trend towards modelling gains momentum, more venues will be looking at installing front fill speakers (if they care, that is).

Just a quick question though Wooks - are you looking at introducing some colour in to your tone (maybe a speaker emulation) - as you may find a FRFR solution a bit lacking if you are used to hearing the colourisation you get from traditional speakers and cabs? Edited by Dad3353

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


I played bass last night at a low-volume open mic where the PA was a single Bose L1, operated by a guy who knows what he's doing. No bass rig was supplied. There were two small combos for the guitarists so all that went through the PA were the vocals.

And my bass, a Takamine TB10.

Played very quietly, the Bose L1 sounded fine. As soon as I started to push it the sound went horribly wrong, all farty and grim.

My Fishman SA220 is WAY better than that.


I concur. Were there any drums? Edited by Dad3353

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


I'm guessing this was at a fairly small venue and you were standing close to the stage?



It was Deaf Institute in Manchester, which is 260 capacity, gig was sold out, here's a pic of the place. I was at the back, I'm getting on now ;)

phmusichall_05.jpg&key=7db7874f6d342c056f5c3197e92d31e8b97aa60698acd1dedb64a31371e55dc0

Obviously if we were talking stadiums, then that wouldn't be an issue, but sadly I'm certain those days are behind me.

The support band had much more impact in their sound due to having a traditional back line as well as PA.

Edited by Dad3353

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


I concur. Were there any drums?



Nope - although a duo that were on earlier had a pair of bongos ... Edited by Dad3353

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Nope - although a duo that were on earlier had a pair of bongos ...


Oh dear. Edited by Dad3353

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


It was Deaf Institute in Manchester, which is 260 capacity, gig was sold out, here's a pic of the place. I was at the back, I'm getting on now ;)

phmusichall_05.jpg&key=7db7874f6d342c056f5c3197e92d31e8b97aa60698acd1dedb64a31371e55dc0

Obviously if we were talking stadiums, then that wouldn't be an issue, but sadly I'm certain those days are behind me.

The support band had much more impact in their sound due to having a traditional back line as well as PA.

I would be looking to use cab sims and profiles to add that extra bit of voicing or colour. I'm using a kemper, so would add the cab choice for the sounds.


Cool venue - although the speaker alignment on the right could do with some work 😜

Without being there, I wouldn't want to comment too much, but with a decent PA, there's no reason why you couldn't make the second band sound as authoritative as the first. There's less open mics on stage for starters, so you'd get an increase in your headroom before feedback. I'm guessing you would have heard a lot of bleed from the kit in this size venue and situation - especially from the cymbals and snare. I wouldn't like to say for sure (equipment limiting) but there shouldn't have been any reason why the sound guy couldn't have made those without backline sound as big as the the guys with. At the end of the day, it's only about shifting air...

Aha - fellow Kemper user - you do realise that you can use the monitor out without any modelling (so you get the sound of your profile and then the sound of the cab is provided by the cab itself) and send your main out to FOH - and that would have the cab emulation on it...? Again, if you want to hear the same as front of house as you can (that's assuming no tweaking of your sound at the desk... which is bound to happen anyway), you are right to look at FRFR. Edited by Dad3353

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.



×
×
  • Create New...