Finished! A Bridge Too Far?

[Andyjr1515]

[quote name='TheGreek' timestamp='1492621330' post='3281734']
I thought that JPJ meant an ornate wedge supporting the back of the bridge - possibly glued to the back of the neck. Correct me if I'm wrong.
[/quote]
Ah.....a mystery! I like mysteries

[TheGreek]

My thinking, in effect, this:

[url="http://s1167.photobucket.com/user/FairfaxAikman/media/bridge%20wedge_zpszaxyekp8.png.html"][/url]

Would add support to the bridge, look ornate and be an ideal place to add your logo.

Edited April 19, 2017 by TheGreek

[Andyjr1515]

[quote name='TheGreek' timestamp='1492628323' post='3281842']
My thinking, in effect, this:

[url="http://s1167.photobucket.com/user/FairfaxAikman/media/bridge%20wedge_zpszaxyekp8.png.html"][/url]

Would add support to the bridge, look ornate and be an ideal place to add your logo.
[/quote]
Phew - yes, we're talking about the same thing

[gelfin]

[quote name='Andyjr1515' timestamp='1492617969' post='3281706']
I'm ahead of you both....already planned
[/quote]

Anyone who comissions a bass from Andy will quickly realise that he is almost telepathic whe it comes to mulling over ideas or suggestions.

It happened so many times when we were discussing the progress of my build. The Mouradian style.

Which I have to say still feels like my best new toy for years.

[Andyjr1515]

[quote name='gelfin' timestamp='1492638566' post='3281977']


Anyone who comissions a bass from Andy will quickly realise that he is almost telepathic whe it comes to mulling over ideas or suggestions.

It happened so many times when we were discussing the progress of my build. The Mouradian style.

Which I have to say still feels like my best new toy for years.
[/quote]
Thanks, Nic

[allighatt0r]

[quote name='gelfin' timestamp='1492638566' post='3281977']
Anyone who comissions a bass from Andy will quickly realise that he is almost telepathic whe it comes to mulling over ideas or suggestions.
[/quote]

I can confirm this, for the planning and implementation of the in depth mods Andy did to a Westone of mine. Never ceases to amaze

Andy, you are aware that you're going to have to do something even more bonkers than this bass, to top this one, aren't you?

[Andyjr1515]

Remember when I said that off-the-wall designs like this are a series of compromises held together with hope?

I've learned over the builds to try as far as possible to stick with the original brief and not pre-empt issues with a more practical solution and thus potentially stifling the originality of the concept. In management babble, I suppose it is termed 'pushing the envelope to its limits'...

Here's an example of where everything plots against everything that put's the 'should work fine' firmly into the 'might not work at all' territory:

Add[list]
[*]Serious offset
[/list]
to[list]
[*]Hidden magnetic pickup
[/list]
then add
[list]
[*]ultra-slim body
[/list]


equals:



When you leave the bits of wood out that don't actually contribute to the strength, you see more clearly that the only thing holding the neck on is this joint here:



Then add the next ideal of a continuation of the neck profile along that joint....

....which makes that joint line even thinner...

My thoughts at the design stage were, and still are:[list]
[*]It should be theoretically be strong enough
[*]It will, however, need to be a pretty perfect joint
[*]For belt and braces, a couple of hardwood dowels, might be in order:
[/list]

[list]
[*]or (my preference) a thin-ply jointing biscuit:
[/list]



Now I can actually see it in the flesh, I can work out which one is favourite

...and now you are probably reminded why I called this thread 'A bridge too far?'

[Andyjr1515]

[quote name='allighatt0r' timestamp='1492780003' post='3283173']

Andy, you are aware that you're going to have to do something even more bonkers than this bass, to top this one, aren't you?
[/quote]
I think I may well have found the edges of the envelope on this one, Bryan

[Andyjr1515]

OK - that's confused everyone

Whether you start off with a complete neck and route the pickup chamber (possible) and the angled tuner block slot (in practical terms, not possible) the result is the same - you will be routing right through the neck in two places:

Here:


....and here:



The pickup, installed from the back, will go into a chamber like this, with a flush cover that matches the stripes of the neck:



The reason I have cut the neck and will 'assemble' the chamber rather than rout it is that the position of the neck to the body wing is going to be absolutely critical on this design and it is much, much easier to get that right a piece at a time.
In any event, the angled slot for the tuner block will need to be done like this...

Does that clarify what I'm talking about or just make it more confusing?

[LowMoFo]

"...I believe in Andy..."

We ALL believe in Andy!!

[Andyjr1515]

[quote name='LowMoFo' timestamp='1492798614' post='3283367']
"...I believe in Andy..."

We ALL believe in Andy!!
[/quote]
No - to be honest, the main thing is whether Mick is comfortable with the progressing and final balance of desirables vs compromises.

And actually, in one of our regular PM discussions today, it is clear that one of Mick's higher desirables is to be as close to a true neck-thru as possible. I should have spelt out more clearly the actual impact of going for a hidden magnetic pickup on a neck-thru build and, now he's seen how I would go about solving this problem, he's not entirely sure about it. That is no problem whatsoever. Every unconventional build will have at least one of these major decision points...and there may be more to come, folks

There are a number of options which would simply put the neck-thru part of the spec on a higher priority footing. Clearly there are maybe then compromises elsewhere in the spec - but this is how these types of project work. The result of the process will be something that we are both delighted with.

Normally, the threads wouldn't show the think / act / review / rethink process - but it does happen with many if not most of the more ambitious projects and I'm more than happy to show the whole process.

And the doctors assure me that Mick will be able to leave the oxygen tent very shortly

Edited April 21, 2017 by Andyjr1515

[JPJ]

Why not add extra laminates to the neck in the body region so that the neck remains continuous even after routing for the magnetic pickup?

I'd also be tempted to commission some custom single pole /coil pickups a la Wal and the arrange them diagonally so you don't need to cut a big chunk out of the neck, just a series of smaller staggered pockets.

[TheGreek]

Hahaha...great minds...

We've just had the conversation re: adding extra laminates to the neck.

Happy to consider any ideas that make this project work...can you post a link to the single pole p/ups? I've also contacted Martin Herrick who makes custom p/ups for his input.

Many thanks.

Mick

[Andyjr1515]

Yes - I think we have a solution that meets all the criteria, even if we have to stick with a conventional mini-humbucker.

Because having the neck continuity is important to Mick, I can take the legs off the pickup to lose a bit of height and width (it won't be going anywhere!) and route the chamber from the top.

The fretboard (which if you remember is sanded flush with a corresponding radius of the body) will have a small hatch cut into it. This was the mockup - pretend this short section is even shorter and is removable:


So on the bass itself, the hatch would be somewhere like this (I've also marked the 24th fret just to illustrate its position):


That give around 6mm continuous neck under the pickup:


BUT, if nothing else was done, there would also need to be an extension of the hatch into the body wings (marked in light pencil), simply because the pickup is wider than the neck.

So, adding three 'great minds think alike' together, add two more ebony splices over the length the body attaches to the neck, represented by these two gaps (ignore the upside down pickup):


And this does two things - now the body wings are further apart than the pickup is wide AND, there is an additional full-depth bridging of the remaining thickness from those additional ebony neck splices across the pickup chamber and all the way through to the tailstock.

The fretboard will simply widen by 6mm each side over the body sections and so there will just be that small inconspicuous hatch as in the second photo above.

I have enough offcut of the laminated neck blank to cut a second neck and will not need to route the pickup chamber before we have an answer on individual coils, if they turn out to be an option

By the way, Mick - when you talk to potential custom winders, remember that the maximum depth they can be is 20mm if they are to remain hidden...

Either way, we're back on track

Edited April 22, 2017 by Andyjr1515

[Andyjr1515]

And by the magic of a click of the fingers (and a warm bandsaw) here we are back in business:





I've got some 6mm ebony in my bits box that I will cut tomorrow and add the extra neck splices

Now better go and get ready for tonight's gig!

[JPJ]

Or go with a 51 P pickup, which is pretty much just the coil former and slugs, got to be smaller than that mini-humbucker. If noise is the concern add a second dummy coil just aft of the pickup?

[customstocker]

what would be altered strength wise if the bridge was lowered into a routed cavity on the underside under a "patch box" which slid out for tuning ? this might relieve the angle of the strings going through to the bridge saddle on top. .

[Andyjr1515]

[quote name='customstocker' timestamp='1492892270' post='3284007']
what would be altered strength wise if the bridge was lowered into a routed cavity on the underside under a "patch box" which slid out for tuning ? this might relieve the angle of the strings going through to the bridge saddle on top. .
[/quote]
Based on the rig, I think the bridge works fine...but maybe could be better?

Not quite following what you're suggesting...can you expand a bit?

[Andyjr1515]

[quote name='JPJ' timestamp='1492883865' post='3283910']
Or go with a 51 P pickup, which is pretty much just the coil former and slugs, got to be smaller than that mini-humbucker. If noise is the concern add a second dummy coil just aft of the pickup?
[/quote]
Actually, even if you snip off the fixing screws on the bottom board (which I will also do with the mini), the 51 P is wider than the mini humbucker! It was a surprise to me also when I was looking around at options....

The reduced width of the 51-P is 73mm and the mini with adjustable poles is 70mm. The mini without the poles is even less at 68mm, but I think those poles will give an important couple of mm closer to the strings under the hatch.

[customstocker]

I mean if the bridge was sunk into the underside then it could have a sliding cover to hide it until it needed tuning. not sure if you would still require the bridge angle or whether it would allow the bridge to sit flat. I guess it depends on how high the bridge is whether or not there would be A. enough space for it to be sunk in & B. enough body thickness to allow the design to work without creating too much stress at this area
By the way, I saw a nice fretless last year with a white Ebony fingerboard, this would sit well with what you & Mick have come up with which looks amazing by the way.
I can build a pup for this when you have a cavity design in mind in either single coil or full humbucking mode

[Andyjr1515]

[quote name='customstocker' timestamp='1492931261' post='3284113']
I mean if the bridge was sunk into the underside then it could have a sliding cover to hide it until it needed tuning. not sure if you would still require the bridge angle or whether it would allow the bridge to sit flat. I guess it depends on how high the bridge is whether or not there would be A. enough space for it to be sunk in & B. enough body thickness to allow the design to work without creating too much stress at this area
By the way, I saw a nice fretless last year with a white Ebony fingerboard, this would sit well with what you & Mick have come up with which looks amazing by the way.
I can build a pup for this when you have a cavity design in mind in either single coil or full humbucking mode
[/quote]
Ah - I see where you are coming from.

Mick was keen that I tried the Steinberger-ish headless system he sent me if it was feasible. The reason it is angled in the design is two-fold:[list]
[*]The tuner block is designed to have a pretty straight string-run coming from the tuner grabs - the strings bind in the block if they are angled to even a mild extent.
[*]The strings will exit through the extended fingerboard and over an acoustic-style bone saddle. This will have piezo element strip underneath it. To get the transfer of the vibrations into the body (and the piezo) there is, of course, a break angle needed
[/list]
So angling the tuner block creates the correct break angle at the bridge and the strings still exit the tuner block parallel to the tuner grabs:


Functionally, the mock-up proved the concept. Aesthetically, though, it looks a bit odd left by itself. Hence the wedge that we all were thinking about at the same time as each other - carved from an offcut of the same laminated neck wood - will make it look like it's supposed to be there. Well....at least that's the plan

Love the thought about white ebony....I'll look into that. At the moment, the fretboard is rock maple. I offered Mick the option of a flame maple but we both agreed that the contrast of flames might make it look a bit fussy. Never though about white ebony, though. I'll have a look. Thanks for the tip

Oh and Mick told me you are a good guy to talk to if we did consider custom pickups! I'll drop you a PM

[Andyjr1515]

[quote name='Andyjr1515' timestamp='1492936888' post='3284161']

Love the thought about white ebony....I'll look into that. At the moment, the fretboard is rock maple. I offered Mick the option of a flame maple but we both agreed that the contrast of flames might make it look a bit fussy. Never though about white ebony, though. I'll have a look. Thanks for the tip

[/quote]


Mmmm....having looked into it, I don't think white ebony is a goer for this particular build. Although you can sometimes get just the 'white' bit (though more usually it is the spectacular - but not right for this build - black and white), the white is very much a straw colour and considerably darker than the sycamore.

Clearly, the woods we are using will darken to an extent as soon as the finish goes on, but something like that - while looking pretty stunning - would be quite a distance away from the original spec.

[MPU]

If you want to have one more option for pickup I can wind you four round coils (like the coils on Wal pickups) that you can mount in round holes about 20mm diameter. If you want to check my work please search for MPU in Talkbass or Pickup makers forum.

[Andyjr1515]

[quote name='MPU' timestamp='1492969797' post='3284496']
If you want to have one more option for pickup I can wind you four round coils (like the coils on Wal pickups) that you can mount in round holes about 20mm diameter. If you want to check my work please search for MPU in Talkbass or Pickup makers forum.
[/quote]
Round coils is certainly something we've been considering, MPU

I'll follow the links and drop you a PM. Thanks for the post.

[Andyjr1515]

The pause in apparent progress is a bit of an illusion. In the background, lots has been going on....and it's very exciting

You will see above the excellent thoughts and suggestions from both Martin (customstocker) and from Marko (MPU) relating to custom pickups. Mick and I have followed up these links and delved into the possibilities of individual coil custom pickups as a potential solution.

If you are AT ALL interested in some stunning thinking and practical, performing solutions, do follow up with these guys. Both Marko (MPU) and Martin (herrickpickups) have some really, really impressive examples of some really, really impressive work!

In the end, for no better reason than Mick has had previous contact with Martin, I've gone with Herrick - but trust me....I'd have gone very happily with either Great stuff, guys !

This is the new plan we've been discussing:



[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]The basic idea - in order to preserve the integrity of the neck and also have a continuous full-length 'fretboard' (nut to tailstock) - is to:[/font][/color][list]
[*]Have them as individual coils
[*]The coils will be inserted from the back of the bass. This will be covered by a hatch made from a slice of laminated neck off-cut
[*]The slugs will be height adjustable from the back. The fretboard will be blind-drilled to within 1mm of the fretboard surface, to allow the slugs to be within 3mm or so from the strings but remain hidden. Because of the different harmonic points from the rake angle of each coil - it is very useful to be able to adjust the slugs by a mm or so. Also, because there is a volume difference across this rake, the resistance values (ie number of windings) will progress across the coils to compensate
[*]the coils will be pressed into position by thin foam pads attached to the rear hatch
[*]A cable run slot will be routed into the side of the neck prior to gluing to the body wings
[/list]
It's a much better solution than the one I'd originally designed. This one feels right as opposed to 'the end justifies the means'

Thanks once more to Martin and Marko I love this forum

Edited April 26, 2017 by Andyjr1515