Jazz basses, what's the point?

[Misdee]

14 hours ago, TheGhostofJaco said:

I personally think a fender gets through the mix better for me. The sadowsky has amazing tone but it disappears a bit in the mix, when the fender just sits in a beautiful space. I should say that my fender is actually a Moollon and it has a very warm and rich tone to it. 
 

I just played on a dance track with both and the Moollon won. Sat on top of the kick as was super clear to hear in the mix. 
 

Active basses sometimes have that compressed sound that can be amazing for slapping but can work against when playing finger style.  Sadowsky moreso because the mids are more scooped. Not that they won’t work or anything, but it matter what you are looking for. 

 

 I totally agree that there's respective merits to traditional Fender-style style Jazz Basses and more modern active versions.

 

I think a lot depends on how, or indeed if, you use the Sadowsky preamp. With a two band boost-only preamp there is a tendency for players to boost treble and bass, and the inevitable consequences is that it makes Sadowsky basses sound more recessed in the midrange. Nothing necessarily wrong with that, but as you quite rightly point out, it's not what you want in certain situations.

 

I'm not a huge fan of that modern scooped-out, thump and sizzle Jazz Bass tone.  Marcus Miller makes it sound great but it's tiresome that so many players just want to copy that tone. For years I shied away from active Jazz-style basses for exactly that reason.

 

However, it's quite possible to EQ a Sadowsky so it sounds anything but scooped. Not least of all, those basses sound good either in passive mode or active but with no added boost or just a little bit. Or add some mids externally and boost the bass or treble (but not both) depending on whether you want to be deep or bright and bit more gritty. You can also attenuate with the VTC. There's lots of ways approach it. 

 

Also, being able to pan between the two pickups on a Sadowsky opens up a lot of tonal possibilities that can be harder to achieve on a conventional passive Jazz with two volume controls.

 

 

[Stub Mandrel]

Maybe my ears are puny or I'm easy to please, but I don't get these problems despite switching between wildly different basses.

[Woodinblack]

3 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Maybe my ears are puny or I'm easy to please, but I don't get these problems despite switching between wildly different basses.

 

I don't - but then I am convinced that a lot of people listen with their eyes!

[HeadlessBassist]

There was a very interesting edition of All About The Bass [I think it was the one comparing lots of outboard Preamps] I watched the other day, where the supposedly 'funny man' who sits in between Lee & Cici actually mentioned that "Jazz basses need a little help" and took the bass and treble up to about 2 o'clock. This makes the whole thing sound richer and punchier, without really accentuating the 'scoop'. Good quality passive Jazz basses usually have very natural low mids and the active ones do sound empty if they're not present. I use the same method of eq-ing my passive Jazzes and usually get fantastically rich sounding results.

Edited Monday at 20:42 by HeadlessBassist

[TheGhostofJaco]

12 hours ago, chris_b said:

 

I've never heard Will Lee "disappear into the mix" and neither does my Sadowsky MV5 Jazz.

 

IMO when basses don't cut through it's due to user error. When they haven't been EQ'd correctly or when the signal chain isn't working in harmony.

nah. It’s a different sound. I’ve been playing on records for years so I know what sound I need for certain tracks. And there is a difference in mid presence there. We sat and A/Bd it. Will Lee plays very different music as well. 
 

it’s not user error in this case. It’s just a case of being lucky enough to have both basses and picking which one works best for which tracks. 

[TheGhostofJaco]

1 hour ago, HeadlessBassist said:

There was a very interesting edition of All About The Bass [I think it was the one comparing lots of outboard Preamps] I watched the other day, where the supposedly 'funny man' who sits in between Lee & Cici actually mentioned that "Jazz basses need a little help" and took the bass and treble up to about 2 o'clock. This makes the whole thing sound richer and punchier, without really accentuating the 'scoop'. Good quality passive Jazz basses usually have very natural low mids and the active ones do sound empty if they're not present. I use the same method of eq-ing my passive Jazzes and usually get fantastically rich sounding results.

this brings up a good point. I agree and use a preamp as well. And it’s a different sound than with the active bass. One big reason is the buffer from the preamp. Another one is the tone knob on the passive bass is rolled off before you eq. So it’s quite a nice sound with a little boost. 
 

Sounds like we have the same experience with the mids. Also the traditional fender volume knobs let me roll them both off a bit which takes the scoop out of both pickups being on. On a sadowsky that is not an option. So they really are different beasts. Both great at what they do, but they do it in a different manner. There is no doubt about that. 

[TheGhostofJaco]

15 hours ago, Terry M. said:

I've never heard this said before about Sadowskys 🤔

 

Interestingly I've had passive Fender Jazz basses that disappeared into the mix with both pickups on full.

 

And I just hung with a guy who plays on a ton of big country records who switched off of Sadowskys years ago because they disappeared for him as well. I don't play on country records, but the point is that it is contextual based on the musical material. Also huge difference between live and on a record. I'm speaking of in the studio. Live, I love the light weight of the sadowsky, it is a joy to play, and a go to for me.

 

A Passive fender jazz with both pickups on full is great if slapped or overdriven and played with a pick. That is personally the only time I would have both volume puts fully open on a jazz bass though. It is trickier to mix a jazz bass - active, passive - whatever brand. But the secret many times is in the low mids, which is where I prefer the old passive Fenders.

[Stub Mandrel]

2 hours ago, HeadlessBassist said:

There was a very interesting edition of All About The Bass [I think it was the one comparing lots of outboard Preamps] I watched the other day, where the supposedly 'funny man' who sits in between Lee & Cici actually mentioned that "Jazz basses need a little help" and took the bass and treble up to about 2 o'clock. This makes the whole thing sound richer and punchier, without really accentuating the 'scoop'. Good quality passive Jazz basses usually have very natural low mids and the active ones do sound empty if they're not present. I use the same method of eq-ing my passive Jazzes and usually get fantastically rich sounding results.

 

Amps vary, many have scoop built in, but on Saturday I dialed in about 1 o'clock of bass and treble for my Flea jazz... partly intuitive as we were in an outdoor marquee so I felt the bottom end would need a bit of help, and the treble would add clank when I needed it.

 

Lots of slamming the strings agsindt the frets later I don't think I suffered any lack of presence or cut through.

 

One of my brothers was in the audience and made an interestng observation... my sound had a good full bottom end, unless he stood close to the pub wall that was opposite us.

[dave_bass5]

I struggle sometimes to make a Jazz bass work in a band setting. I play with a pick 99% of the time and I just find I can't sit in the mix as well as with my P bass. I still use a Jazz occasionaly, but it's a bit more work sometimes. 

[Marvin]

I've always liked the tone of the bass player in Blind Melon on the album of the same name.

 

I assume it's a Jazz bass because there's a lot of photos with him playing one. 

 

It cuts through but also sits well with the other guitars 

 

Someone will tell me now that it wasn't a Jazz bass.

[TheGhostofJaco]

2 hours ago, dave_bass5 said:

I struggle sometimes to make a Jazz bass work in a band setting. I play with a pick 99% of the time and I just find I can't sit in the mix as well as with my P bass. I still use a Jazz occasionaly, but it's a bit more work sometimes. 

It is more work for sure. But once you figure it out it is quite rewarding. It goes in places the p can not, and vice versa. Always great to have both options as the foundation of a bass arsenal. 
 

Will Lee came up earlier. He specifically asked Roger for more mid control because he wanted to cut more in the low mids and as result has a signature bass made for him with added on mid controls. So he is playing a different bass than the jazz with the standard sadowsky 2 band preamp. 

[Terry M.]

2 hours ago, dave_bass5 said:

I struggle sometimes to make a Jazz bass work in a band setting. I play with a pick 99% of the time and I just find I can't sit in the mix as well as with my P bass. I still use a Jazz occasionaly, but it's a bit more work sometimes. 

I took mine to a rehearsal today and it was being a bit stubborn with regards to cutting through.Yet again I'm thinking of a Stingray even though I never keep them when I have one.

[Misdee]

5 minutes ago, TheGhostofJaco said:

 

Will Lee came up earlier. He specifically asked Roger for more mid control because he wanted to cut more in the low mids and as result has a signature bass made for him with added on mid controls. So he is playing a different bass than the jazz with the standard sadowsky 2 band preamp. 

My Sadowsky's are both Will Lee signature models. The mid boost control is a nice feature , but even without it engaged the true single coil pickups fitted as standard on the WL have much more pronounced midrange than the hum cancelling pickups that come on the regular Sadowsky basses. It's a big difference in tone. The single coil pickups are much more raunchy. Much more Fender-like. 

 

 

[SurroundedByManatees]

I've tried 2 jazzes in the same rehearsal space recently; one strung with rounds, and the other one with la bella flats. The one with flats did blend in significantly better than the one with rounds, when played with both vol and tone on full.

 

As mentioned some helpfull tweaking is possible by lowering the volume knobs if needed. But the basic string choice helps a lot too.

[SurroundedByManatees]

15 minutes ago, Terry M. said:

Yet again I'm thinking of a Stingray even though I never keep them when I have one.

Sounds like me. Had quite a few, sold quite a few.

 

Everything I think I need a stingray, I end up missing some warmth. 

 

They can do a great job in a band context though. 

[dave_bass5]

57 minutes ago, SurroundedByManatees said:

Sounds like me. Had quite a few, sold quite a few.

 

Everything I think I need a stingray, I end up missing some warmth. 

 

They can do a great job in a band context though. 

Years ago i brought a MM Sub off a member here. It arrived the same day i got a Lakeland Duck Dunn (again). I took both to a gig and found the Sub was actually better for our older Motown stuff. In fact i used it for 2 out of 3 sets. I’ve always wanted to get another but still haven’t got around to it. 

[TheGhostofJaco]

1 hour ago, Misdee said:

My Sadowsky's are both Will Lee signature models. The mid boost control is a nice feature , but even without it engaged the true single coil pickups fitted as standard on the WL have much more pronounced midrange than the hum cancelling pickups that come on the regular Sadowsky basses. It's a big difference in tone. The single coil pickups are much more raunchy. Much more Fender-like. 

 

 

Thats interesting and I totally forgot to mention the pickups. The hum canceling ones have benefits but definitely impact the sound as well. It’s kind of a pick your poison thing.
 

Will Lee basically wanted a more fenderish bass than the regular sadowsky J is. 

[Misdee]

4 minutes ago, TheGhostofJaco said:

Thats interesting and I totally forgot to mention the pickups. The hum canceling ones have benefits but definitely impact the sound as well. It’s kind of a pick your poison thing.
 

Will Lee basically wanted a more fenderish bass than the regular sadowsky J is. 

This is a really good demonstration of the difference.

 

Edited Tuesday at 20:46 by Misdee

[Misdee]

What's for certain is that a decent passive Fender can sound as good as anything at any price. I prefer that raunchy Fender tone to most very expensive boutique basses.

[dave_bass5]

30 minutes ago, Misdee said:

What's for certain is that a decent passive Fender can sound as good as anything at any price. I prefer that raunchy Fender tone to most very expensive boutique basses.

Ive been left very cold by the expensive basses ive tried. Ive played a few Dingwalls and couldnt wait to get back to a Fender. Too sterile for me. Same with a very expensive bass that i cant remember its name, had about 100 knobs and switches and no soul. 

[Stub Mandrel]

Rehearsal this evening. Bass Terror, mid and  bass 12 o'clock, treble about 12:30. Gain about 2 o'clock.

 

Great sound despite strings nearing end of life (Fender nickel plated).

 

All songs but one tones full up, neck full volume, about 30% on bridge. One song went neck only.

 

A bit of slap, lots of fingerstyle, a bit of pick. All sounded good, no trouble cutting through.

[Terry M.]

10 hours ago, Misdee said:

This is a really good demonstration of the difference.

 

Thanks for posting this. It's making me consider swapping the stock Fender noise cancelling pickups for single coils as I like the rawness and less compressed sound. 

[Misdee]

55 minutes ago, Terry M. said:

Thanks for posting this. It's making me consider swapping the stock Fender noise cancelling pickups for single coils as I like the rawness and less compressed sound. 

Last I heard, the Sadowsky single coils are a custom wind done for them by Seymour Duncan, based on the Antiquity vintage-style pickup.

 

 FWIW,  I wouldn't be too hasty replacing what you already have.  In the early 2000's I had a Fender America Deluxe Jazz Bass and it sounded fine with the stock Noiseless pickups. There's loads of great choices if you do decide to replace the pickups, though.

[Terry M.]

4 minutes ago, Misdee said:

Last I heard, the Sadowsky single coils are a custom wind done for them by Seymour Duncan, based on the Antiquity vintage-style pickup.

 

 FWIW,  I wouldn't be too hasty replacing what you already have.  In the early 2000's I had a Fender America Deluxe Jazz Bass and it sounded fine with the stock Noiseless pickups. There's loads of great choices if you do decide to replace the pickups, though.

Been eyeing up the Nordstrand NJ5 pickups. I lean more towards single coil sounds than hum cancellers but I do enjoy both to be fair.

[Misdee]

Contradictory as this may sound, if your bass sound isn't cutting through because it's sounds too compressed, are you using a compressor, and if so, which one and how is it set?

 

I use a Diamond Bass Compressor and especially on Fender-style basses it really focuses the tone and makes it audible. The Diamond is a really useful tone shaping tool as well as a compressor. I've got the older  18 volt model, but the now version has a mid control as well as the shiftable frequency tilt added so it's probably even more useful. It's a really addictive sound.