skidder652003 Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 If this is in the wrong forum, mods please move. So, a weird thing happened last night. We have 2 active peavey subs which I have been distinctly underwhelmed with in the past. We used to use them with passive tops, either peavey or EV tops, and they sounded weak and hardly any thump. Anyway last night we used them in a small theatre (250) with our new active RCF tops all from a peavey desk. My God, they sounded huge, really chest thumping, even the bass amp which was a DI'd 15W Gear for Music joke sounded huge! So my question is this, do you need to use active subs with active tops to get the most from them? And if so, why? The difference was incredible to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
essexbasscat Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 What are your new RCF tops out of interest ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidder652003 Posted July 7, 2016 Author Share Posted July 7, 2016 312A's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goblin Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 I can't think of any logical reason. I run HK Actor subs with passive EV tops, and I have no issue at all. I do run an EV system controller between the desk and the power amp for the tops, and the sub outputs are from the back of the controller - I imagine this has some influence on the crossing over. How were they wired? Do you have a sub output on the desk which is dedicated to the subs? How were you powering the tops? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidder652003 Posted July 7, 2016 Author Share Posted July 7, 2016 [quote name='goblin' timestamp='1467923642' post='3087422'] I can't think of any logical reason. I run HK Actor subs with passive EV tops, and I have no issue at all. I do run an EV system controller between the desk and the power amp for the tops, and the sub outputs are from the back of the controller - I imagine this has some influence on the crossing over. How were they wired? Do you have a sub output on the desk which is dedicated to the subs? How were you powering the tops? [/quote] so last night when everything sounded huge, 2 XLR Direct sends out from the desk to the active tops. 1 aux send to the active sub, 2 and 3 aux send to the active monitors, so all the speakers self powered Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 There's no reason for active subs to sound any better with passive versus active tops. Whatever difference heard indicates that you didn't set the system up correctly when using the passive tops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidder652003 Posted July 8, 2016 Author Share Posted July 8, 2016 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1467942559' post='3087502'] There's no reason for active subs to sound any better with passive versus active tops. Whatever difference heard indicates that you didn't set the system up correctly when using the passive tops. [/quote] Im trying to recall how we used to do it Bill, as I remember we used to speakon out of the power amp to the the passive tops and then xlr daisy chain to the active subs rather than a dedicated line to each (now) active speaker from the mixing desk, would that make any difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 [quote name='skidder652003' timestamp='1467964501' post='3087554'] I remember we used to speakon out of the power amp to the the passive tops and then xlr daisy chain to the active subs [/quote]I can't imagine how that would work, and by your results I'd say it didn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 [quote name='skidder652003' timestamp='1467964501' post='3087554'] Im trying to recall how we used to do it Bill, as I remember [b]we used to speakon out of the power amp to the the passive tops and then xlr daisy chain to the active sub[/b]s rather than a dedicated line to each (now) active speaker from the mixing desk, would that make any difference? [/quote] No, that can't be right... unless the signal out of the passive tops is a line signal.....?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidder652003 Posted July 8, 2016 Author Share Posted July 8, 2016 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1467982893' post='3087803'] No, that can't be right... unless the signal out of the passive tops is a line signal.....?? [/quote] I think we asumed that the xlr out from the passive tops into the active subs "carried on" the signal as if you were daisy chaining one passive top to another? Totaly ignorant I know!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 [quote name='skidder652003' timestamp='1467983288' post='3087808'] I think we asumed that the xlr out from the passive tops into the active subs "carried on" the signal as if you were daisy chaining one passive top to another? Totaly ignorant I know!!! [/quote] Xlr does not mean 'line level' signal; on passive cabs it's a speaker-level (Martin's, anyone..?). Taking the xlr from the passive tops to the active subs is a Very Bad Idea, as the active subs are not wanting such a high signal, and could be damaged; the signal going into the passive tops will suffer, too, as will the amp driving all of this. Recommendation..? Have someone competent and experienced look over your set-up, and note how they say it should best be used. Set it up that way each time; don't 'improvise' without knowledge. Things can (and often do...) get to be expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 A passive speaker should not have had an XLR out at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 (edited) Yes I've never seen xlr on a passive speaker more likely a phono, sounds like you were sending the amplified signal to the line in on the active subs? Imagine taking your speaker lead and instead of putting it in your bass cab sticking it into the guitarist's amp input! Same difference really. I wonder if the passive tops have sub out connections? Designed for passive subs rather than active. Edited July 8, 2016 by stingrayPete1977 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taunton-hobbit Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 (edited) I've got Mackie C200s(passive) which have Neutrik xlr............ Edit - Woops, Speakons - it's been a long day............ Edited July 8, 2016 by taunton-hobbit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 What sort of wattage is an xlr designed to take? I've just sold a pair of Mackie c300s they didn't have xlrs, two speakon and two phonos on each all in parallel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowhand_mike Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 we run our passive carlsbro tops with active evolution subs, but the subs have their own feed from the desk the tops are run from the power amp, daisy chaining would over stress the amp no doubt hence the weak sound as the signal would be weak, thats how i see it anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 Some of us older folks dimly remember Vox cabs with Xlr, and Martin PA and foldback cabs with those connectors. Bose, too, had 'em... Speakons came later, but we've seen 'em all, from banana plugs to spade or fork terminals to bare wires..! Just sayin'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 (edited) [quote name='taunton-hobbit' timestamp='1467989028' post='3087895'] I've got Mackie C200s(passive) which have Neutrik xlr............ [/quote]They have Speakon, not XLR. The one marked 'send' is intended for sending the signal to another passive speaker, not to a power amp. Guys, you're bass players, you're supposed to be the smart ones in the band. You should know this stuff. If you leave it to drummers and guitar'd players who knows what kind of mayhem might ensue. [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1467989275' post='3087898'] What sort of wattage is an xlr designed to take?[/quote]None. They're intended to carry low current signals. For that matter the same applies to 1/4" phone connectors, which never should have been used for speaker connections. They were only pressed into that duty because Leo Fender was too cheap to add another SKU to his parts bins. One could call Speakons better late than never. For a time in the 60s and early 70s some did use XLR for speakers in an attempt to reduce the possibility of plugging an input into an output, but that was before XLR became the standard for microphones and line level sends. Edited July 8, 2016 by Bill Fitzmaurice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goblin Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 [quote name='skidder652003' timestamp='1467964501' post='3087554'] Im trying to recall how we used to do it Bill, as I remember we used to speakon out of the power amp to the the passive tops and then xlr daisy chain to the active subs rather than a dedicated line to each (now) active speaker from the mixing desk, would that make any difference? [/quote] And there lies the problem, the subs would have not been crossing over and putting out the correct frequency. No crossover, no thumb... you might get a bang though when you blow the amp in the sub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taunton-hobbit Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 Sorry Bill - post #14 duly corrected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 (edited) Everything I own is speakon these days, I've made some short speakon to phonos just in case I come across a pesky Ashdown or similar in a practice room so I can use my head with that cab or that head with my cabs if my head should fail mid gig and a kind offer of an Ashdown head was taken up. I'm amazed putting the speaker input into the input of an active speaker (both sides of the stage!) didn't kill them, I was going to say maybe they have an idiot proof protection circuit built in but that would be rude to the OP, Edited July 8, 2016 by stingrayPete1977 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidder652003 Posted July 8, 2016 Author Share Posted July 8, 2016 [quote name='goblin' timestamp='1467993424' post='3087941'] And there lies the problem, the subs would have not been crossing over and putting out the correct frequency. No crossover, no thumb... you might get a bang though when you blow the amp in the sub. [/quote] And therin did lie the problem when we duly blew both subs in quick succession and couldn't understand why to be follwed by a relatively expensive repair. I do now recall it was indeed jack out from the passive tops to xlr in for the subs ( i had the leads made for that very use) so now i get why the subs sounded so so much better with a direct line out from the desk a couple of nights ago! Im sending this thread to our drummer and guitarist, thanks again guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 Ouch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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