TimR Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 (edited) I don't think you can declare yourself a musician or an artist unless people appreciate what you are doing is art or music. I'm sure there are people who play music for their own enjoyment while alone, so I'm not sure exactly where that boundary lies other than if you are making music for yourself, at some point someone will ask to hear you. Until then, simply calling yourself a musician doesn't make you a musician. Edited August 14, 2015 by TimR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 (edited) One is a musician just as soon as there's question of music, I'd say, and stick to the definition given above. Either ... [color=#800080][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]One skilled in the science or practice of music. [/font][/color] [color=#000000][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]... or ...[/font][/color] [color=#800080][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]2 A professional performer of music, esp. of instrumental music.[/font][/color] [font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][color=#000000]Either or both of these bestow the 'status' of musician. A composer may not be able to play any instrument at all, but, if 'skilled in the science of', qualifies. Someone performing music, albeit by sequencer or samples, is equally qualified. Someone holding a trombone is not a musician, unless that holding is part of a musical work. It seems so much simpler if we stick to the definition. Putting a record on a turntable does not qualify. Using that to make music, does.[/color][/font] Edited August 14, 2015 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1439542750' post='2843657'] I don't think you can declare yourself a musician or an artist unless people appreciate what you are doing is art or music. I'm sure there are people who play music for their own enjoyment while alone, so I'm not sure exactly where that boundary lies other than if you are making music for yourself, at some point someone will ask to hear you. Until then, simply calling yourself a musician doesn't make you a musician. [/quote] Not sure I agree with that. There's nothing in the definition concerning such. Alone on a desert island, playing bongos on coconuts would qualify the player as a musician, without an audience of any kind. Indeed, even [i]thinking [/i]of jungle beats, without playing them, still counts. The key is in the 'skilled in the science of' again. That skill may be cerebral (as a composer, for instance...). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1439543354' post='2843667'] Not sure I agree with that. There's nothing in the definition concerning such. Alone on a desert island, playing bongos on coconuts would qualify the player as a musician, without an audience of any kind. Indeed, even [i]thinking [/i]of jungle beats, without playing them, still counts. The key is in the 'skilled in the science of' again. That skill may be cerebral (as a composer, for instance...). [/quote] Yes. But for it to be music and not just noise, someone has to appreciate it as such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted August 14, 2015 Author Share Posted August 14, 2015 Agree but the person who is enjoying in can also be the person who is playing. A musician alone on a desert island has an appreciative audience of one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1439544979' post='2843686'] Yes. But for it to be music and not just noise, someone has to appreciate it as such. [/quote] That's a rather limited definition; the OED has wider senses than that, including ... [color=#800080]...[/color] [color=#800080]4 A piece of music composed or performed.[/color] [color=#800080]...[/color] As long as it's 'composed or performed' (that's to say: not accidental, but deliberate...), it can be called music, at least by the composer or performer. Others may not like the result, but music it is, to someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Rock Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Toilets at a Festival? WTF? They are not musicians!! 😉 If it adds value/fulfils a need, do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Rock Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 (edited) Or, to be a bit less facecious, Tony Benn (RIP) regularly did talks at Glastonbury which were very popular. People enjoy it, so why be confined by labels. Edited August 14, 2015 by Roland Rock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1439544979' post='2843686'] Yes. But for it to be music and not just noise, someone has to appreciate it as such. [/quote] Ah.....But English people love noise. [i]"The English may not like music, but they do love the noise it makes"[/i] [i]Sir Thomas Beecham.[/i] Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_beecham.html#0CBm5UiqidoLzlTf.99 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1439545990' post='2843704'] That's a rather limited definition; the OED has wider senses than that, including ... [color=#800080]...[/color] [color=#800080]4 A piece of music composed or performed.[/color] [color=#800080]...[/color] As long as it's 'composed or performed' (that's to say: not accidental, but deliberate...), it can be called music, at least by the composer or performer. Others may not like the result, but music it is, to someone. [/quote] No. It can't be called music. You can compose noise. Just because you have assembled some sounds doesn't make the result music. You need at least two people. One to make the noise and an independent person to qualify it as music. Otherwise I could go outside and shout and bang my dustbin lids and call it music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 (edited) [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1439548752' post='2843749'] No. It can't be called music. You can compose noise. Just because you have assembled some sounds doesn't make the result music. You need at least two people. One to make the noise and an independent person to qualify it as music. Otherwise I could go outside and shout and bang my dustbin lids and call it music. [/quote] You could indeed. I'll stick with the OED definition. Music is music, even if only composed in one's head. No audience is necessary at all. No third party is required for it to be music, as long as the composer and/or performer meant it to be. There are other definitions, but they don't exclude this one; they just add [i]further [/i]meanings. The primary definition, for instance, is ... [color=#800080]1 That one of the fine arts which is concerned with the combination of sounds with a view to beauty of form and the expression of emotion; also, the science of the laws or principles (of melody, harmony, rhythm, etc.) by which this art is regulated.[/color] There are others still. A few decades ago, I assisted at a Ron Gleason concert, at the Elisabeth Hall, South Bank. There were several reel-to-reel machines set up around the stage, and a giant banjo on a stand. The tapes turned with random synchronisation, and Mr. Gleason went from one instrument to another, now a keyboard, now a guitar, sometimes the banjo, improvising ('composing'..?) as he went. The 'bouquet final' and climax of the piece was a spectacular kick of an empty red jerry can into the audience, which had been centre-front stage from the outset. Musician..? Rather..! Music..? To many there, certainly. To an empty hall, it would still have counted. Edited August 14, 2015 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Banging dustbin lids and shouting is not fine art. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 (edited) [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1439549897' post='2843766'] Banging dustbin lids and shouting is not fine art. [/quote] To me, neither (although to some it could be, why not..?), but it is [i]music[/i], if that's what the person doing it intended. Either that or the OED is wrong. Maybe that's it..? Music is not always, or only, 'fine art', although it can be, of course. Edited August 14, 2015 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Although I am disinclined to think of DJs as musicians, you could draw an analogy with artists who produce collages. Just because the components of their work weren't originated by them doesn't mean that they're not artists. So I think I shall find a nice wide comfy bit of fence to sit on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skol303 Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1439542434' post='2843651'] A DJ who plays records is not a musician. [/quote] I'd agree that a DJ who 'just' plays records isn't a musician. However... creatively mixing two records together - resulting in a new piece of music - does qualify as musicianship IMO. And therein lies the diversity of what it means to be a 'DJ'... Colin who plays popular hits of the 80s at wedding receptions, fading one song in as another one ends, is not musician. He's not 'creating' music, he's broadcasting it. Jane who plays a residency at the local nightclub, blending music 'on the fly' to create her own remixes, is a musician. She's creating new material live on stage - albeit music created using component parts made by others (akin to the 'artists collage' metaphor above). At least that's how I draw the line with DJs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrammeFriday Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 [quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1439573890' post='2844134'] I'd agree that a DJ who 'just' plays records isn't a musician. However... creatively mixing two records together - resulting in a new piece of music - does qualify as musicianship IMO. And therein lies the diversity of what it means to be a 'DJ'... Colin who plays popular hits of the 80s at wedding receptions, fading one song in as another one ends, is not musician. He's not 'creating' music, he's broadcasting it. Jane who plays a residency at the local nightclub, blending music 'on the fly' to create her own remixes, is a musician. She's creating new material live on stage - albeit music created using component parts made by others (akin to the 'artists collage' metaphor above). At least that's how I draw the line with DJs [/quote] This. Exactly. Jane is also quite likely to slip one or two of her own tracks (put together in her home studio) into the mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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