Bass solos in Jazz

[Bilbo]

I have been doing these great gigs for a couple of years now with some of the UK's top Jazzers; John Etheridge, Tony Kofi, Jim Mullen, Art Themen, Steve Waterman, Jason Robello, Ivo Neame, Clark Tracey - the list is long and exciting. When I do these gigs, I am regularly offered the opportunity to solo; no surprsies there, it's a Jazz gig after all. I recorded a lot of these gigs in the early days for reference purposes (I stopped doing so a long time ago as it was becoming unhelpful) and several of them are on my ipod so they pop up occasionally What is troubling me is that, when everyone else is soloing, there is a massive bed of harmony and rhythm on which they can draw and against which the gaps in their lines can sit. When the bass solos, more often tthan not, this whole tapestry disappears and you are left with a hi-hat and air. Obviously, sometimes there are subtle chords and rhythms and, In some ways, it is lovely to have the space but, when I listen back to the performances, I wish other musicians wouldn't drop like a stone every time a bass solo comes by!!

I remember one gig 1000 years ago (in Cardiff) where I was playing in a piano trio and, when the bass solo came along, for reasons which were not altogether clear at the time, it took off and went up a notch instead of the whole backdrop disappearing. I know the double bass doesn't carry that well but it still feels like I have been abandoned!!

Any thought?

[Mike]

Oh, completely. This is a massive bugbear of mine. I make a point of mentioning to new musicians I work with to not drop out during the bass solo. It's so unfair for the groove to drop out through the floor and makes things a lot harder for bassists. Also, I like having the harmony to work with - if there's nothing there, you could just play any old rubbish. The musicians I regularly work with know this so keep playing now (albeit maybe slightly more quietly) although some of the more, let's say, old school drummers still sometimes drop down to hihat.

I think just be honest and straight with the musicians and they'd be happy to continue playing. Hope to see you play soon Rob!

[toneknob]

Agree! Having said that it's hard enough to get my guitarist and keyboard to shut up/play quietly at any other time that I take the opportunity to improve my soloing to both help me keep track of where I am, and play something interesting and meaningful at the time. Which is also difficult.

Edited April 23, 2015 by toneknob

[Drax]

I've noticed tight touring bands are often more supportive around the solo bass - I assume because they know eachother's phrasing better / they're comfortable they're not stepping on toes.

Whenever there's a bass solo at a jazz jam, it is a total abandon. As a relative newcomer to jams I've passed on solos before as didn't feel confident enough with that tune, to take the exposure. I suppose - echoing Mike - should really just give the band a steer to how I'd like to hear it.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Drax

[fatback]

That's the best explanation yet to me of why most bass soloing is horrible. Also, why it seems (imo) that the most successful solos are more melodic than rhythnic. The melody carries better without backing.

Basically though, I think it should stop.

[Bassman Steve]

[quote name='fatback' timestamp='1429786951' post='2754919']
Basically though, I think it should stop.
[/quote]

Agreed. Each to their own but I cannot abide bass solos and don't recall a single one that worked for me. Very much my own opinion, I hasten to add.

[KevB]

I'm also still not sold on the bass as asolo instrument even now. But then you start getting into the 'what actually is a bass' thing. 30-40 years ago it was still pretty easy to define but now with all the 'extended' instruments the water is muddier. I'd still argue that if someone's got a 'bass' with enough strings on it so that they are playing what are effectively guitar strings in a way that is more similar to what a guitar player does then they are in fact playing a guitar solo. It's all clearly subjective though.

[fatback]

[quote name='KevB' timestamp='1429792003' post='2754996']
I'm also still not sold on the bass as asolo instrument even now. But then you start getting into the 'what actually is a bass' thing. 30-40 years ago it was still pretty easy to define but now with all the 'extended' instruments the water is muddier. I'd still argue that if someone's got a 'bass' with enough strings on it so that they are playing what are effectively guitar strings in a way that is more similar to what a guitar player does then they are in fact playing a guitar solo. It's all clearly subjective though.
[/quote]

Good point. The register is what matters imo. Even in the upper reaches, bass isn't quite in the frequencies of the human voice, and I think that's where solos need to be for psychological reasons.

[Bassman Steve]

Indeed. I'm probably just sub-consciously envious of people that can do it

[jrixn1]

Funny, it's the opposite for me... I really like it when the band (or at least the chordal instruments) drop out!

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcMWov0_TAE"]https://www.youtube....h?v=kcMWov0_TAE[/url]

[Hector]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1429784636' post='2754864']
I have been doing these great gigs for a couple of years now with some of the UK's top Jazzers; John Etheridge, Tony Kofi, Jim Mullen, Art Themen, Steve Waterman, Jason Robello, Ivo Neame, Clark Tracey - the list is long and exciting. When I do these gigs, I am regularly offered the opportunity to solo; no surprsies there, it's a Jazz gig after all. I recorded a lot of these gigs in the early days for reference purposes (I stopped doing so a long time ago as it was becoming unhelpful) and several of them are on my ipod so they pop up occasionally What is troubling me is that, when everyone else is soloing, there is a massive bed of harmony and rhythm on which they can draw and against which the gaps in their lines can sit. When the bass solos, more often tthan not, this whole tapestry disappears and you are left with a hi-hat and air. Obviously, sometimes there are subtle chords and rhythms and, In some ways, it is lovely to have the space but, when I listen back to the performances, I wish other musicians wouldn't drop like a stone every time a bass solo comes by!!

I remember one gig 1000 years ago (in Cardiff) where I was playing in a piano trio and, when the bass solo came along, for reasons which were not altogether clear at the time, it took off and went up a notch instead of the whole backdrop disappearing. I know the double bass doesn't carry that well but it still feels like I have been abandoned!!

Any thought?
[/quote]

You might want to add this to your lexicon! http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=humblebrag (I jest, am jealous is all)

Yeah, I get the same issues, albeit with lesser players. The guys you're playing with are good enough that you could ask for non-intrusive backing before the gig? A lot of stuff happens interactively on the gig for sure, but sometimes it's better to talk a little bit about stuff like that - especially as different bass players like different things. Maybe even have some specific examples of what you like?

On the other side of things, if you know that sort of thing is gonna happen a lot, you could shed soloing without any backing and see how clearly you can outline the harmony (often helps to record it and listen back). In theory it should be possible to make the changes clear without an instrument. It might feel a bit restrictive you have the pressure of both harmony and rhythm on your back whilst soloing though. Or you might want to reharm on the fly and see how good these guys really are!

Liam Noble does a nice supportive bit during the bass solo on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOEjmBNddjY
But other bass players like Christian McBride might prefer more minimal backing at times: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1IsAgfdN-Q

[Bilbo]

I think about soloing a lot, not because I am egotistical but because I am not very good at playing the double bass!!

As an electric player, I can play bebop lines and some other very interesting things when soloing, some quite creative and rarely used with electric bass. When I play double bass (which is almost always now), I cannot execute complex, fast runs in thumb position and have had to find a way to get [i]deeper[/i] into the bass. Occasionally, if the thing feels right, I jsut do what is called a 'walking solo' in which I play some really radical bass lines that are basically straight quarter-notes. What works well is doing that but instead of sticking in extra grace notes, I just leave notes out i.e. straight quarter note walking lines with gaps in. What can happen then is that the 'cliche' lines can become really interesting because you have effectively moved things one notch to the left. Other things I try include the occasional use of, say, the G on the D string followed by the G on the G string, using the subtle difference in intonation to create a interesting tension. In short, it's all Charlie Haden and Jimmy Garrison instead of NHOP and Paul Chambers. I am all rhythm and gaps now, not lightening speed!! That slowing down has allowed me to find depth in my soloing.

I did a recent trio gig with a pianist and guitarist which opened my eyes to the potential of working with a more intimate ensemble - think Jimmy Guiffre's Trios. I trio gig with Phil Robson and Christine Tobin was another eye opener. Lots of space without a loss in impetus.

It always has the potential to be better (a LOT better ) but I like the direction of travel at the moment. It feels like something is happening.

[louisthebass]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1429800296' post='2755095']
I think about soloing a lot, not because I am egotistical but because I am not very good at playing the double bass!!
[/quote]

I'm confused (which isn't difficult for me really) but having looked at some of the people you've played with in your initial post, you must be good at playing DB?

[booboo]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1429800296' post='2755095']
I think about soloing a lot, not because I am egotistical but because I am not very good at playing the double bass!!

As an electric player, I can play bebop lines and some other very interesting things when soloing, some quite creative and rarely used with electric bass. When I play double bass (which is almost always now), I cannot execute complex, fast runs in thumb position and have had to find a way to get [i]deeper[/i] into the bass. Occasionally, if the thing feels right, I jsut do what is called a 'walking solo' in which I play some really radical bass lines that are basically straight quarter-notes. What works well is doing that but instead of sticking in extra grace notes, I just leave notes out i.e. straight quarter note walking lines with gaps in. What can happen then is that the 'cliche' lines can become really interesting because you have effectively moved things one notch to the left. Other things I try include the occasional use of, say, the G on the D string followed by the G on the G string, using the subtle difference in intonation to create a interesting tension. In short, it's all Charlie Haden and Jimmy Garrison instead of NHOP and Paul Chambers. I am all rhythm and gaps now, not lightening speed!! That slowing down has allowed me to find depth in my soloing.

I did a recent trio gig with a pianist and guitarist which opened my eyes to the potential of working with a more intimate ensemble - think Jimmy Guiffre's Trios. I trio gig with Phil Robson and Christine Tobin was another eye opener. Lots of space without a loss in impetus.

It always has the potential to be better (a LOT better ) but I like the direction of travel at the moment. It feels like something is happening.
[/quote]

Has it changed the way you solo when you go back to the electric now? Interested because I'm headed down a similar road myself - althogh I suspect a long way behind where you are. As for your original point, I think everyone dropping out for the bass solo is just an outdated convention from the days of gut strings, and no amps. It can be useful though in that it gives you a little more *ahem* 'freedom' solong as long as you know (roughly) how far through the changes you are and what key the final turnaround is in!

[lowdown]

I prefere when folks drop out (or just add minimal hints of changes, or answer phrases).
For me, with people playing, I kinda of get pushed into lines or rhythms I don't want to play.
In short I like the freedom, then ideas just seem to fall in place.

On another note, when I see/hear Bass solos struggling,
on a lot of those occasions the player has his head buried in the fake book.
It helps to really know the changes of the tune you are soloing over,
which then gives you confidence in what you are trying to achieve,
then flowing (solo) lines tend to just happen (usually, not always of course...lol...).

Edited April 23, 2015 by lowdown

[Bilbo]

[quote name='louisthebass' timestamp='1429808644' post='2755221']
I'm confused (which isn't difficult for me really) but having looked at some of the people you've played with in your initial post, you must be good at playing DB?
[/quote]

I pay them. They HAVE to play with me

Seriously, my budget pays for one of these guys and two sidemen. I run the events and do it for next to nothing (sometimes, if it is a trio, I do ok). None of them would book me if they had a choice. I can hold my own and it's mostly ok (train wrecks are few) but I am more often than not the weakest link by a country mile.

[Hector]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1429800296' post='2755095']
As an electric player, I can play bebop lines and some other very interesting things when soloing, some quite creative and rarely used with electric bass. When I play double bass (which is almost always now), I cannot execute complex, fast runs in thumb position and have had to find a way to get [i]deeper[/i] into the bass.
[/quote]

As someone who also started on electric, I feel the pain for sure! One thing I've been trying to get together (had a few glimmers of hope but not there yet) is playing more through the changes than trying to make each change. Like playing with a key centre, or using pentatonic groupings to join disparate chords that might share notes in common.

I think soloing on upright forces you to get further into a tune in many ways.

EDIT - Having mulled it over a bit how best to explain, I guess the focus is to detach your solo from the constraints of a given tune's harmonic rhythm, and think in bigger units than a bar or even 2 bars. Instead of playing C-7 language for one bar, then F7 language for one bar, then Bbmaj7 language for one bar, it's more about thinking in melodies that fit those changes. It might be Bb major scale ideas, or Bb maj pentatonic ideas, or F maj pentatonic ideas, or even Eb maj pentatonic ideas, then point is to get some breathing space. It's always melodies, Michael Moore springs to mind as a player who I suspect thinks in this way. Pentatonics for this are a dead useful tool - for example, an Eb major pentatonic would fit over C-7 F7 (ii V in Bb major) and it's relative minor Am7b5 D7alt (ii V in G minor). Stuff like this allows for a certain amount of commonality across progressions, playing across the barline etc. I think for me it has to be ear-based though, I've gotta not only hear the melodies to play, but also have the tune's form going through my head clear as if I were listening to it.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Hector