Individual effects versus multi-effects

[Oscar South]

[quote name='BassManKev' post='253187' date='Aug 2 2008, 10:39 AM']i have to ask what multi effect took you 30 mins to set up one effect??[/quote]
PodXT and Zoom B2.1, I don't mean just messing with multi effect settings though, it includes playing with bass dials, messing with EQ and amp settings etc. The time it took to get a passable sound out of my equipment as a whole, rather than just from the unit. Of course this meant that I ended up having to spend 5-10 mins adjusting stuff every time I used a different amp setup (which was frequently, as I have to use university stuff for course things, and they have different amps in different practice rooms).

[quote name='BassManKev' post='253182' date='Aug 2 2008, 10:30 AM']the balls being red and blue are fact, the sound quality of something in all cases is opinion[/quote]

Maybe less so, the majority of people would agree that one was red and one was blue, but occasionally you might get a colour blind person come along and claim that both are grey, or that one was grey and one was blue. Its the same kind of thing here, ask the vast majority of people if soundwise they'd prefer a multi effects unit or some well picked stomp boxes, most people choose multi effects over single units for reasons other than sound quality.

I'm not using the 'colour blind' example as an insult to say you're 'tone blind' or anything btw, as I think it might appear like that. I'm just using it in the example to show how a seemingly objective argument can also be subjective, yet still fact.

Edited August 2, 2008 by Oscar South

[Kev]

[quote name='benwhiteuk' post='253189' date='Aug 2 2008, 10:43 AM']never used it then?

the synth sounds are complete dog sh*t, but there's some great overdrives, distortions, and fuzz effects on it, as well as phasers and flangers and chorus effects, plus more. I challenge you to a fuzz off...[/quote]
lol yup iv tried one and didnt like it, much preffered the gt-6b which i bought over it in the end, i just found it to be better all round on the effects front

[Kev]

[quote name='Oscar South' post='253195' date='Aug 2 2008, 10:48 AM']Maybe less so, the majority of people would agree that one was red and one was blue, but occasionally you might get a colour blind person come along and claim that both are grey, or that one was grey and one was blue. Its the same kind of thing here, ask the vast majority of people if soundwise they'd prefer a multi effects unit or some well picked stomp boxes, most people choose multi effects over single units for reasons other than sound quality.

I'm not using the 'colour blind' example as an insult to say you're 'tone blind' or anything btw, as I think it might appear like that. I'm just using it in the example to show how a seemingly objective argument can also be subjective, yet still fact.[/quote]

a colour blind person may not be able to tell the difference between the two balls, but that wont change the fact that they are indeed red and blue. i can assure you i am not 'tone blind' and have gone through a lot of single effects unit, behringer to boutique.

[BigRedX]

Its all down to which compromises you want to make and what features you can't live without. Me I'll go for ease of use and consistency of sound and put up with a small loss of sonic fidelity. Also the compression/distortion/chorus/delay settings I use on one song won't always be appropriate for another, so I have three choices - a programmable unit, fiddling about with the controls on my pedal(s) between songs, or a separate pedal for each setting I need. Plus I wouldn't even look at a delay unit that didn't have MIDI sync as well as tap tempo.

Our last lead guitarist had a floor full of pedals and was forever fiddling about with them trying to get "the sound he had last time" because invariably at least one of the knobs would have got inadvertently moved, but finding which one...

Meanwhile I turn up with my rack, plug the bass into the front and the power and speakers into the back, call up the patch for the first song and I'm ready to go.

[Kev]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='253209' date='Aug 2 2008, 11:03 AM']Its all down to which compromises you want to make and what features you can't live without. Me I'll go for ease of use and consistency of sound and put up with a small loss of sonic fidelity. Also the compression/distortion/chorus/delay settings I use on one song won't always be appropriate for another, so I have three choices - a programmable unit, fiddling about with the controls on my pedal(s) between songs, or a separate pedal for each setting I need. Plus I wouldn't even look at a delay unit that didn't have MIDI sync as well as tap tempo.

Our last lead guitarist had a floor full of pedals and was forever fiddling about with them trying to get "the sound he had last time" because invariably at least one of the knobs would have got inadvertently moved, but finding which one...

Meanwhile I turn up with my rack, plug the bass into the front and the power and speakers into the back, call up the patch for the first song and I'm ready to go.[/quote]
big +1

if you want two effects to sound the same with different basses for example, with individula units your gunna be messing round between songs to suit the bass your playing, whereas with a multi effect, you stomp to the next effect patch and your there

Edited August 2, 2008 by BassManKev

[Oscar South]

I'm still not sure what point you're arguing, are you claiming that multi effects sound better than single effects units, or just that they're better overall for other factors? (convenience, cost etc.)

If its about sound then this discussion can't really go much further unless you post why multi-effects sound better than single stomp units, with some kind of evidence or reasoning. If its about overall factors, then I agree that in this case its completely subjective.

I will hold my ground on the fact that stomp boxes sound better though, for the reasons I've posted above and also because there is a relatively limited range of multi effects units and a practically infinite number of stomp boxes. To claim that multi effects sounds better than ALL of them is absurd, and unless you can make that claim then its a lost argument. In fact, I'd say that the majority of decent quality single effects sound far better than the majority of multi effects.

[escholl]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='253209' date='Aug 2 2008, 11:03 AM']Our last lead guitarist had a floor full of pedals and was forever fiddling about with them trying to get "the sound he had last time" because invariably at least one of the knobs would have got inadvertently moved, but finding which one...[/quote]

plus the one.

not really the same thing, but one of the reasons i got the programmable sansamp was that the settings are stored, regardless of if the knobs get moved around or not. the knobs on my compressor get moved now and again, and it's really annoying to try to find that "right" sound again.

Only having a few effects, i've always preferred to have individual ones over multi-effects, as to my ears they do sound better; having said that if i was using several basses and a fair few effects live then really the only way to go is with something programmable, and save the single effects for the recording

[BigRedX]

In the studio you do whatever is necessary to get the right sound for the recording, whether that be individual pedals, studio rack effects, plug-ins, playing through a 2" speaker in a tin bucket...

Live you need consistency, reliability and the minimum of fuss which is what you get with programmable multi-effects.

Also the pedal that gets say the right distortion effect for one song may not do so well on another where the bass distortion requirements are different, so what do you do? have a different pedal selection for every song? Somewhere along the line you're going to have to compromise. Also IME pedal effects are much more sensitive to differences in input signal. What happens when you need to use your back-up bass?

Being a multi-instrumentalist I may have a slightly different attitude towards the use of effects in that for my bass-playing in particular any effect other than sync'd timed delay is simply gloss on the basic instrument sound - If I want something radically different, I'm more likely to use an instrument that is closer to that sound as a starting point, or a synth...

Who saw the guy with all the pedals at last year's Bass Day? Impressive, but ultimately a bit like watching a dog walk on it's hind legs. Everything he did would have been easier, more reliable and quicker to achieve with a keyboard player using a Moog Voyager...

[Oscar South]

I can play guitar, bass (including upright), piano and mandolin to a good performance standard, and by october when I go back to uni I'll be able to say the same for drums and vocals (only done those for fun before now so they need polishing up). I use mainly guitar or non specific pedals on my pedal board so that I can use it for all my instruments. I don't use effects as compositionally as some people, one hi-gain sound, one light distortion, one delay w/ tap tempo (any decent stomp delay has this) and a few 'always on' type effects, maybe a reverb and I want them all instantly available at a button hit with no hassle. I don't use them excessively and I've never found myself wanting or needing to tweak the settings mid set and I have the settings I usually use written down. I could get this to some degree from the PodXT but it sounded one quarter as good and there was too much messing with settings, the buttons were too close together, if you hit 2 buttons at the same time it had no effect, its easy to hit a wrong button and screw everything up. Stomp boxes are simpler, safer, better sounding, transfer better between instruments and MORE FUN.

[Kev]

transfer better between instruments??

[escholl]

[quote name='Oscar South' post='253356' date='Aug 2 2008, 04:02 PM']Stomp boxes are simpler, safer, better sounding, transfer better between instruments and MORE FUN.[/quote]


safer? do many people get injured by multieffects?


i suppose if a whole rack fell on you....

[Oscar South]

[quote name='BassManKev' post='253361' date='Aug 2 2008, 04:09 PM']transfer better between instruments??[/quote]

I picked guitar and bass stomp boxes that sound great on guitar or bass, and the stuff I have like compressors, reverbs, delays etc. can be transfered to anything. A multi effects unit will generally sound a bit rubbish on anything other than what its designed to be used for.

[quote name='escholl' post='253365' date='Aug 2 2008, 04:15 PM']safer? do many people get injured by multieffects?


i suppose if a whole rack fell on you....[/quote]

Read the rest of my post, you're less likely to hit a wrong button and screw everything up mid set/mid song with single effects than with a multi effect.

Edited August 2, 2008 by Oscar South

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Oscar South' post='253356' date='Aug 2 2008, 04:02 PM']...MORE FUN.[/quote]

Actually I had more fun when the sequencer took care of all my effects changes for me, I could get on with playing bass or guitar, "throw some shapes" on stage and not have to worry about being in the right place at the right time to stomp on the right pedal.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one as we both seem to after completely different things from our effects.

And if my old bass rack had fallen on someone it would have caused serious injury...

[Oscar South]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='253370' date='Aug 2 2008, 04:29 PM']Actually I had more fun when the sequencer took care of all my effects changes for me, I could get on with playing bass or guitar, "throw some shapes" on stage and not have to worry about being in the right place at the right time to stomp on the right pedal.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one as we both seem to after completely different things from our effects.

And if my old bass rack had fallen on someone it would have caused serious injury...[/quote]

Eh, I could never get on with such a rigid structure when playing live, what if the singer misses a cue or the guitarist overruns on his solo? And I feel that seeing the musicians do everything themselves on stage is as much a part of the act as the act itself, I personally love watching what the musicians change their settings or instruments or amps, and I want to recreate that for people in my own performances.

Its the spontaneity and in 'instant gratification' factor of stomp effects that I really love. In rehearsal as much as live too, just experimenting with different sounds is a really good inspiration boost.

I do agree that we seem to have different outlooks.

Edited August 2, 2008 by Oscar South

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Oscar South' post='253374' date='Aug 2 2008, 04:36 PM']Eh, I could never get on with such a rigid structure when playing live, what if the singer misses a cue or the guitarist overruns on his solo?[/quote]

We were rehearsed well enough so that something like that wouldn't happen. Also we didn't really have a lot of instrumental breaks as we felt that the song was more important than showing off our musical prowess.


[quote name='Oscar South' post='253374' date='Aug 2 2008, 04:36 PM']And I feel that seeing the musicians do everything themselves on stage is as much a part of the act as the act itself, I personally love watching what the musicians change their settings or instruments or amps, and I want to recreate that for people in my own performances.[/quote]

In the early days of the band we would get some members of the audience complaining about our use of sequencers and talking about feel and spontaneity. This completely stopped when we added a drummer with what looked like an acoustic kit. Actually all that had changed was that now about half the percussion sounds were being triggered by a human instead of a computer. We still used a load of pre-arranged sequences and the drummer played to a click which he monitored via in-ear phones. His drums were damped to the point that all they produced acoustically was a dull thud and they were actually triggering exactly the same sounds we had been using before. Strange how peoples perceptions are led more by what they see that by what they hear in a live setting...

[Oscar South]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='253393' date='Aug 2 2008, 05:01 PM']We were rehearsed well enough so that something like that wouldn't happen. Also we didn't really have a lot of instrumental breaks as we felt that the song was more important than showing off our musical prowess.[/quote]

That can cover about 99.9% of the time, however there are no absolutes. And a solo or break can be as much a part of a song as anything else.


[quote name='BigRedX' post='253393' date='Aug 2 2008, 05:01 PM']In the early days of the band we would get some members of the audience complaining about our use of sequencers and talking about feel and spontaneity. This completely stopped when we added a drummer with what looked like an acoustic kit. Actually all that had changed was that now about half the percussion sounds were being triggered by a human instead of a computer. We still used a load of pre-arranged sequences and the drummer played to a click which he monitored via in-ear phones. His drums were damped to the point that all they produced acoustically was a dull thud and they were actually triggering exactly the same sounds we had been using before. Strange how peoples perceptions are led more by what they see that by what they hear in a live setting...[/quote]

Regardless of the sounds being used, its about being able to see everything they hear happening in front of them, which they could you added a drummer (or at least what they couldn't was less obvious). It doesn't matter at all where the actual sound is coming from, as long as they can see someone 'making' it.

Edited August 2, 2008 by Oscar South

[Mr Fudge]

Both my balls are very, very purple.

Edited August 3, 2008 by Mr Fudge

[cheddatom]

Sorry to hear that Mr Fudge!

[quote name='Oscar South' post='253177' date='Aug 2 2008, 10:26 AM']its just fact that good quality stomp boxes can blow away even the best multi effects. ....................

I will admit that this is technically just 'in my opinion'....[/quote]

Yes it IS just your opinion!

[quote name='Oscar South' post='253212' date='Aug 2 2008, 11:06 AM'].....I'd say that the majority of decent quality single effects sound far better than the majority of multi effects.[/quote]

That's a slightly different point. There are a lot of pedals out there that sound better than some multi-effects. However, there are probably just as many that would be put to shame by the likes of TC electronic, line 6 etc.

I think the reason you like single pedals more is because they're easier to set-up and tweak. I don't see how it has anything to do with sound quality - some are good, some are bad, you can't possibly justify such a sweeping statement. It's like saying "the Ampeg VST plug-in was modelled on the real thing so of course it's going to sound worse". Some of the richest bands out there use multi effects for a reason. Muse for example.

[Kev]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='254116' date='Aug 4 2008, 09:15 AM']Sorry to hear that Mr Fudge!



Yes it IS just your opinion!



That's a slightly different point. There are a lot of pedals out there that sound better than some multi-effects. However, there are probably just as many that would be put to shame by the likes of TC electronic, line 6 etc.

I think the reason you like single pedals more is because they're easier to set-up and tweak. I don't see how it has anything to do with sound quality - some are good, some are bad, you can't possibly justify such a sweeping statement. It's like saying "the Ampeg VST plug-in was modelled on the real thing so of course it's going to sound worse". Some of the richest bands out there use multi effects for a reason. Muse for example.[/quote]
+1

[51m0n]

[quote name='Mr Fudge' post='253921' date='Aug 3 2008, 08:55 PM']Both my balls are very, very purple.[/quote]

Mine went almost black - lasted for over two weeks.

Oooooouch!