Miller sound

[wombatboter]

This may have been asked before but I probably forgot the answers, sorry.
I recently got a Fender Jazz 77 for a great price around here in Belgium (the owner felt guilty because there was a sticker on it..)
Anyone has got an idea what Miller does to all his jazz basses because in a perfect world this should sound a bit like him but it doesn't really ..
I do realise the power of personality in the fingers but still...what kind of preamp is it or which modifications were done ?
I used to have a signature Miller bass but even that one never came close to the ones he uses...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_3GUmybOCY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Y3dnGzI2l0

Edited March 24, 2014 by icastle
Link fixed.

[Guest McBass]

[quote name='wombatboter' timestamp='1379509097' post='2213485']
I used to have a signature Miller bass but even that one never came close to the ones he uses...

[/quote]

Some of those were wired wrongly from the factory, i rewired mine and it sounds 100 times better.

[risingson]

It sounds pretty MM to my ears, really nice playing too. I know his original Jazz had a Star preamp fitted by Roger Sadowsky, I guess an onboard preamp close to something like that would go some way to helping you out nailing the sound.

[Fat Rich]

Biggest thing is DR Fatbeam strings, pricey but they last for ages so they're actually pretty good value for money. Hi Beams are also close, just a little brighter.

A Sadowsky preamp helps, I've got one of the old outboard ones with just bass, treble and volume but it adds fatness and helps to push any Fender Jazz towards the Marcus Miller sound.

Medium weight ash body Jazz basses seem to me to be the best choice but any Jazz type bass will get close with Fat Beams.

I don't think changing the bridge to a high mass one like a Badass makes much difference, he also has a 70s pickup and a vintage 60s pickup (can't remember which was changed for a vintage, possibly the bridge?) Again, I don't think it makes a huge difference.

The rest is in his fingers, phrasing and note choices, good luck with that!

[wombatboter]

Thanks... seems like he always gets this sort of "hi-tech" dimension in his sound which makes it a bit more clinical in a way but still with enough "warmth" (hard to explain). Sounds a bit more trebly when he plays with that sort of Yamaha DX7-bass ingredient in it..
Mine sounds far more like a good solid seventies bass instead of these pimped up basses...
Got a feeling that even my Celinder which I bought here on BC sounded more Miller-esque than this 77-bass.

[Lowender]

I had a MM and it had that sound. The problem was, that was the ONLY sound it had. I couldn't get it to sound like a traditional J.

Keep in mind his amp is also very hi tech.

From what I understand, when Marcus had some repairs on his bass, instead of using a sig model, he used a Fodera . So I'm going to say his bass is simply especially playable and that ultimately makes a difference in the sound. And oh yeah, he's real good.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Lowender

[Fat Rich]

[quote name='wombatboter' timestamp='1379510298' post='2213505']
Thanks... seems like he always get this sort of "hi-tech" dimension in his sound which makes it a bit more clinical in a way but still with enough "warmth" (hard to explain). Sounds a bit more trebly when he plays with that sort of Yamaha DX7-bass ingredient in it..
Mine sounds far more like a good solid seventies bass instead of these pimped up basses...
[/quote]

I think the Sadowsky preamp helps that, it gives a more modern active sound but with warmth. I've a feeling it compresses the signal a bit too, sounds great whatever is going on in there! It's a world away from the Fender preamp in the sig bass, which is junk in my opinion.

[Dingus]

To the best of my knowledge , Marcus' bass originally had a Stars Guitars ( they were one of the first replacement guitar parts companies that started up in the 1970's and were based in San Francisco ) preamp , and that was soon replaced with a very early version of the Bartolini TCT circuit . When the Fender Custom Shop built Marcus a replica replacement of his main bass recently , they had to scour the World to find the exact same vintage of Bartolini preamp from the early 1980's . ( Not that having a slightly different preamp would make much difference , in all probability) . Marcus also has a Badass bridge on his bass. My advice on your own bass and quest for the Marcus tone would be to get a decent preamp - Sadowsky or a J-Retro would be my personal choices- , a Badass bridge ( I definitely do think they make a positive difference) , and maybe even change the pickups to some Fender Custom Shop Vintage 60's or Di Marzio Super Jazz ,[i] [u]if[/u] [/i], that is, you find the stock pickups in the Fender a bit weak after the other changes . My experience is that a lot of very old Jazz Bass pickups tend to degrade and start to sound thin and microphonic over time . That is the time for a replacement or rewind . An ash body and maple board play a big part in the bright tone Marcus is famous for , mostly because of the huge amount of thick laquer Fender were using on their basses at that time . In effect , it is like playing a bass encased in plastic . In practise , a heavy alder body will sound very similar to a heavy ash body ( and chances are your 77 Jazz is not a lightweight ), so I wouldn't get too hung up on the kind of body wood your bass has in comparison to Marcus' bass . A big +1 on the DR Fatbeams , too . They are fabulous-sounding strings and will be a great match for any Jazz Bass.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Dingus

[krysh]

+1 for a badass that will "tighten" up the sound a bit. set the strings low and a preamp with high treble and low boost, in addidtion to the already mentioned I 'd also suggest an audere or aquilar preamp.

[i]edit: and also cocco steels might be a good string choice.[/i]

Edited September 18, 2013 by krysh

[wombatboter]

Thanks for all the usefull info !

[Dingus]

I think any decent preamp that allows you to boost the lows and highs will get you in the right territory . By boosting the bass and treble it gives the illusion of cutting the mids , when in fact they haven't been directly tweaked and are still present . Bear in mind also that quite a lot of the time when he is playing fingerstyle Marcus has his preamp turned off , too .

I know Marcus says that many people get way too hung up on the ins and outs of equipment when in reality it is just a question of finding something practical that works for you . Marcus has got the preamp in his bass that was available at the time he was putting his sound together in the late 1970's / early 1980's . If he was starting out today , no doubt he would have chosen or been directed towards the the brands and models that are current nowadays , and he would have ended up sounding exactly the same !

EDIT: I've just seen your bass in the YT clips and that is a MM funk machine waiting to happen ! Stick a Badass on there and get a preamp and you're away !

Edited September 18, 2013 by Dingus

[Pete Academy]

I've got a '78 Jazz. It came with a set of DR Marcus Miller strings and sounded great. When I was ready for a change of strings, I stuck some Roto Nickels on. The sound had all but disappeared, so I stuck some DRs back on.

Strings make all the difference.

[dr Szelma]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1379512633' post='2213538'] To the best of my knowledge , Marcus' bass originally had a Stars Guitars ( they were one of the first replacement guitar parts companies that started up in the 1970's and were based in San Francisco ) preamp , and that was soon replaced with a very early version of the Bartolini TCT circuit . When the Fender Custom Shop built Marcus a replica replacement of his main bass recently , they had to scour the World to find the exact same vintage of Bartolini preamp from the early 1980's . ( Not that having a slightly different preamp would make much difference , in all probability) . Marcus also has a Badass bridge on his bass. My advice on your own bass and quest for the Marcus tone would be to get a decent preamp - Sadowsky or a J-Retro would be my personal choices- , a Badass bridge ( I definitely do think they make a positive difference) , and maybe even change the pickups to some Fender Custom Shop Vintage 60's or Di Marzio Super Jazz ,[i] [u]if[/u] [/i], that is, you find the stock pickups in the Fender a bit weak after the other changes . My experience is that a lot of very old Jazz Bass pickups tend to degrade and start to sound thin and microphonic over time . That is the time for a replacement or rewind . An ash body and maple board play a big part in the bright tone Marcus is famous for , mostly because of the huge amount of thick laquer Fender were using on their basses at that time . In effect , it is like playing a bass encased in plastic . In practise , a heavy alder body will sound very similar to a heavy ash body ( and chances are your 77 Jazz is not a lightweight ), so I wouldn't get too hung up on the kind of body wood your bass has in comparison to Marcus' bass . A big +1 on the DR Fatbeams , too . They are fabulous-sounding strings and will be a great match for any Jazz Bass. [/quote]

agreed, apart from : 1) pickups, ultra jazz are not kosher single coil and Marcus has alnico V magnet in his pickups. 2) +1 for heavy ash (12 lbs, at least 5.5kg), heavy alder will not sound exactly the same. If I can add one thing - his string action is not the lowest in the world Badass will make huge difference, that's the reason he has it in his bass. Another one thing what is worthy doing : take the pickguard off or install neck pickup cover. Stainless steel strings are MUST when it comes to naling his tone as well. Take the bass to experienced luthier, who will level the neck pocket in the body, you can ask him to change the angle of the neck as well. Don't take off the varnish from that part of the neck what sits in the body and throw away that micro-tilt, don't even think about using it. Your bass has the potential to sound right from what I can gather. BTW - forgot to mention good compressor like dbx160x, or (in ideal world) distressor, don't bother using stomp boxes as they'll take you further away from his nice, organic tone.

[Fat Rich]

All these mods sound like a great way of devaluing a vintage bass. I'd just change the strings first and see if that does it.

My '74 is completely stock, sounds plenty Marcus if it didn't have me thumping on it

[Dingus]

[quote name='dr Szelma' timestamp='1379524519' post='2213708']
agreed, apart from : 1) pickups, ultra jazz are not kosher single coil and Marcus has alnico V magnet in his pickups. 2) +1 for heavy ash (12 lbs, at least 5.5kg), heavy alder will not sound exactly the same. If I can add one thing - his string action is not the lowest in the world Badass will make huge difference, that's the reason he has it in his bass. Another one thing what is worthy doing : take the pickguard off or install neck pickup cover. Stainless steel strings are MUST when it comes to naling his tone as well. Take the bass to experienced luthier, who will level the neck pocket in the body, you can ask him to change the angle of the neck as well. Don't take off the varnish from that part of the neck what sits in the body and throw away that micro-tilt, don't even think about using it. Your bass has the potential to sound right from what I can gather. BTW - forgot to mention good compressor like dbx160x, or (in ideal world) distressor, don't bother using stomp boxes as they'll take you further away from his nice, organic tone.
[/quote]

Wow , if Marcus' bass weighs 12 + pounds then he is even more a awesome dude than I had previously thought !

I think that Marcus still has the stock Fender pickups in his basses , which as you quite rightly point out will have anlico magnets . I only mention the Di Marzio's because , even if they are not true single coils , they sound great and , to my ears at least , have a nice gritty , raw edge to them that reminds me of Fender pickups from the '70's . I also mention them because Sadowsky Jazz pickups are made for them by Di Marzio and are very closely based on that pickup .

According to an article by Roger Sadowsky in a Bass Player Magazine article that I read , Marcus has raised his action very slightly over the years , but still has it fairly low by most standards . In the early 1980's Marcus had an action of 1/16" on the G to 3/32" on the E , whereas nowadays he has gone to very slightly more than that to enable a bit more articulation . I once read Marcus say he lowers his action until it is buzzing and then backs it up slightly so it isn't choking . Apparently , he like to hear a bit of rattle and fret buzz when he digs in and considers it an essential element of his sound . How much difference ash will sound to alder is , of course open to debate , but one major bass builder I have spoken to says that he hears a difference between light and heavy basses far more than between alder and ash . The Northern Ash that Fender was using in the Seventies was , for the most part , heavy and very dense , and so allegedly gave a very slightly more compressed sound with more top and bottom end , but with a slightly recessed midrange compared to alder . I say" allegedly " because myself personally , I dont hear a huge amount of difference between alder and ash or for that matter, between light and heavy basses , to be honest with you . What I do hear a big difference between , however , is between laquered and unlaquered maple fingerboards. The unlaquered boards that are fashionable nowadays have a far less pronounced and less brittle treble response , leading me to think that a lot of the brightness traditionally associated with maple is actually as a result of the finish applied to it and not the wood itself .

Edited September 18, 2013 by Dingus

[Dingus]

[quote name='Fat Rich' timestamp='1379526099' post='2213745']
All these mods sound like a great way of devaluing a vintage bass. I'd just change the strings first and see if that does it.

My '74 is completely stock, sounds plenty Marcus if it didn't have me thumping on it
[/quote]

A very good point, Rich . You can put a Badass on using the existing screw holes for the stock Fender bridge , and you can get a Sadowsky outboard preamp that clips to your strap ( or indeed choose any of the other fine external bass preamps currently on the market ), so no need to butcher a vintage investment . The East J-Retro is also usually a direct retrofit that doesn't need any irreversible alterations to a standard Jazz Bass, if I understand correctly .

[White Cloud]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1379528622' post='2213805']
A very good point, Rich . You can put a Badass on using the existing screw holes for the stock Fender bridge , and you can get a Sadowsky outboard preamp that clips to your strap ( or indeed choose any of the other fine external bass preamps currently on the market ), so no need to butcher a vintage investment . The East J-Retro is also usually a direct retrofit that doesn't need any irreversible alterations to a standard Jazz Bass, if I understand correctly .
[/quote]
Very true this! I owned a 78 Jazz to which I fitted a badass & used a Sadowsky outboard pre - getting a Marcus-esq sound wasn't hard.

[marcus bell]

An ebs rig, Dr strings, jazz bass with an active circuit and the touch of a genius

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='marcus bell' timestamp='1379531315' post='2213867']
An ebs rig, Dr strings, jazz bass with an active circuit and the touch of a genius
[/quote]

Pretty much. A HD350 and TD650 through a 4x10, with a jazz bass, pretty much instant marcus. Even passive jazzes with the character switch engaged on the amp will put you in the ballpark.

[Roland Rock]

When did MM switch from SWR to EBS?

[juliusmonk]

The most Miller-esque tone I have heard came from an Xotic J and a Carvin SB... Not from any Fender. Go figure. I actually was sorely dissappointed with a MM signature and top of the line US jazz. I guess it just shows how individual each bass is, especially if it has had mods... Same brand, same model, same age and it sounds different...

Edited September 19, 2013 by juliusmonk

[dr Szelma]

He didn't - he's using both. He's not carrying his gear with him when touring, it is provided for him wherever he is gigging, and in fact - it has no relevance for his sound going through PA - "ebs era" and "swr era" (when official endorsement) - he still sounded like Marcus Miller, cabs and amps are not changing the way he sounds

(edit: response to Roland Rock's question)

Edited September 19, 2013 by dr Szelma

[wombatboter]

I'm not willing to spoil the vintage character of the bass I have, so thanks for the tips which leave it like it should be without changing too much..
The pre-amp thing makes his sound a bit more "sophisticated" while most Jazz-basses sound like... well, jazzbasses :-)
The Miller-sound is not the sound you're going to mingle with any repertoire you want to, that is a thing I do understand.
But each time I hear him play I just think to myself that it would be nice to have that sort of sound in my possesion although I certainly don't want to be a copycat.
Thanks again for all the advice !

[Machines]

My Lakland 55-60 with brand new EXLs with the SWR SIM on my Zoom B3 is pretty damned closed.

[Dingus]

[quote name='dr Szelma' timestamp='1379584374' post='2214374']
He didn't - he's using both. He's not carrying his gear with him when touring, it is provided for him wherever he is gigging, and in fact - it has no relevance for his sound going through PA - "ebs era" and "swr era" (when official endorsement) - he still sounded like Marcus Miller, cabs and amps are not changing the way he sounds

(edit: response to Roland Rock's question)
[/quote]

I agree totally that Marcus' sound seems unchanged regardless of which amp setup he uses . Over the years I've heard him play through various rigs and he sounds just the same , regardless of what backline he has . Maybe that's partly because he always specifies gear that will enable him to get his signature sound

Edited September 19, 2013 by Dingus