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The Tritone Paradox


DaveFry
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Try this Audio Illusion ; [url="http://philomel.com/musical_illusions/play.php?fname=Tritone_paradox"]http://philomel.com/...Tritone_paradox[/url]

It is just four pairs of tones , each pair consists of tones a tritone ( aug 4th ) apart . But each tone is so harmonically rich that the fundamental is indeterminate ; it could be in any octave* . By the third pair I can't tell if the two tones go up or down !
How do other more experienced ears here get on with it ?


* Missing Fundamental : [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_fundamental"]http://en.wikipedia....ing_fundamental[/url]

The illusion comes from [url="http://deutsch.ucsd.edu/psychology/pages.php?i=206"]http://deutsch.ucsd....pages.php?i=206 [/url]
where they conclude that the way each of us perceives the illusion depends on the speech we each heard as children , but further research [url="http://www.klinikum.uni-heidelberg.de/index.php?id=5503&L=en"]http://www.klinikum....hp?id=5503&L=en[/url] suggests that the left side of the Auditory Cortex of the brain is responsible for recognising the fundamental whereas the right side perceives the harmonics ( spectral perception ).
I only know that for me they both get confused by the illusion above . :blink: I just want to be able to play fretless in tune :(

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I don't understand what it's trying to establish? Sure the harmonic content either side of the fundamental is dictating whether we hear the interval lower or higher, but if the level of the harmonic content is 'lob-sided' for lack of a better term from one sample to the next surely that doesn't make much of a test. EDIT - ahh I understand. It's interesting I guess, the way we perceive each sound is very individual though, so I'm guessing the whole point of it is that there are no right or wrong answers to it.

Edited by risingson
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i'll get around to doing this in a min, but the tritone is also known as the 'false octave'.

it's my favourite interval, much underrated, and not part of many traditionally-taught scales.

also 'the devil's interval' - ooo-er.. :unsure:

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritone"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritone[/url]

Edited by phil.i.stein
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[quote name='phil.i.stein' timestamp='1340653459' post='1707697']
i'll get around to doing this in a min, but the tritone is also known as the 'false octave'.

it's my favourite interval, much underrated, and not part of many traditionally-taught scales.

also 'the devil's interval' - ooo-er.. :unsure:

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritone"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritone[/url]
[/quote]

It's also incredibly difficult for untrained ears to pitch anyway because of how unnatural and jarring it is musically. Stravinsky was a big fan, plus everyone and anyone who came after him and took great influence from him. Leonard Bernstein, John Williams spring to mind.

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[quote name='risingson' timestamp='1340654372' post='1707720']
It's also incredibly difficult for untrained ears to pitch anyway because of how [b]unnatural and jarring it is musically[/b]. Stravinsky was a big fan, plus everyone and anyone who came after him and took great influence from him. Leonard Bernstein, John Williams spring to mind.
[/quote]

that'll be why so many people find punk, metal, d'n'b, dubstep etc.. 'unlistenable'. tee-hee..

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[quote name='arthurhenry' timestamp='1340657916' post='1707796']
The first 3 are ascending, the last one descending. That's it, isn't it? Didn't hear anything weird.
[/quote]

but bear in mind this :

1) you have a 'trained' ear.

2) 'When listening to this sound file, it is best to use equipment with a flat frequency response, so as to avoid spectral distortion. Features that alter the signal in any way, such as spatialization features, should be turned off. Compression algorithms should be avoided, in particular for the stereo illusions. And make sure that the playback amplitude is not too high.'

and most people don't listen to music on either basis. (nor are most people bassists)

Edited by phil.i.stein
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[quote name='risingson' timestamp='1340654372' post='1707720']
Stravinsky was a big fan, plus everyone and anyone who came after him and took great influence from him. Leonard Bernstein, John Williams spring to mind.
[/quote]


Dominant 7th chord, minor 7th b5 chord, 7th b9 chord, and others.
You hear these intervals all the time these days, well in Jazz and Cinematic film scores based on the big Symphony Orchestras,
and of course wrong notes in Pub Rock Bands...

Garry

Edited by lowdown
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[quote name='steve-soar' timestamp='1340661681' post='1707879']
12&4 going down, 3 going up.
[/quote]

Me to.. :ph34r: :lol:

Danny Elfman & Homer like the Tritone Paradox.

[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/59/742972801.jpg/][IMG]http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/9943/742972801.jpg[/IMG][/URL]



Garry

Edited by lowdown
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i'm loving this thread !

reading the Wiki link in the OP, small speakers have difficulty reproducing the fundamental, as do computers.

now i want to know the correct answer, if there is one.

i'm getting 1&2 down, 3&4 up on headphones (quality sennheisers)

then i tried on JBL studio monitors .. 1 down, 2,3,4 up ! damn ! <_<

edit, arggh ! i'm off to bed, all confused-like .. :blink:

Edited by phil.i.stein
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To me it's down down up up, quite clearly, but others obviously differ. But surely whatever 'flat response' equipment you listen to it on your ears are far from a flat response and will vary with age and the amount of abuse they've had etc. On top of that is how you listen to things. As bass players perhaps we tend to listen to the lower harmonics rather than the higher ones.

I'v always thought that part of the reason some people like a particular piece of music and others don't is that, internally, they are hearing different things.

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