What key is Porkpie Hat in?

[lobematt]

I'm looking at Goodbye Pork Pie Hat at the min and I can't figure out what key it's in. I would have said Eb- but after searching online to confirm this I've come away even more confused as I've found sites that say its F-, Bb- and Ab-!

Anybody care to clear this up for me?

Ta!

[Bilbo]

Depends what key you play it in

The original is 'in' Eb, IIRC, but the chart is all over the place and a monster of reharmonising and whatnot so you need to think outisde of Eb in terms of the harmony. Remember, the key signature at the start of the chart only refers to the notes on the stave and NOT the chords above it so, if the chart is 'in' Eb, it doesn't mean the chords have to diatonically relate to Eb major.

[lobematt]

[Bilbo]

I'll try to explain. When players call a 12-bar blues in Bb, it is not actually in Bb, it's key centre starts in Eb major the key which the Bb7 is the dominant chord in. When it goes to the fifth bar, the chord of Eb7 is the dominant chord of the key of Ab major, so, whilst the tune is 'in' Eb, it isn't. THe head of the chart, however, will have a key signature that tells you which notes to play sharp or flat, it does not tell you that the key changes at the fifth bar etc.

[EssentialTension]

It's good that we've got that cleared up.

[lobematt]

Oh OK, nice one Bilbo. I'm trying to transcribe the sax solo at the min and was just wondering what key sig to put on the transcription. Stick with Eb- then??

[paul_5]

Once you've got the line down, find a key signature that best suits that. Nothing wrong with playing in two different keys at once (it's called Bitonality), some singer songwriters I know can play in one key and sing in another at the same time. Not always intentional though...

[Faithless]

I can't speak of particular tune, but, with jazz standards it's common for a tune to have multiple keys.
Just think of "All THe things you are" or "Giant Steps" - there's a number of different keys throughout those tunes.

[JakeBrownBass]

When unsure about keys, analyse the chord changes with Roman Numerals (this is a good exercise in it's self). You begin to find sub dominants, borrowed chords etc... Then when things start to really make no sense the song has generally, changed key or it's simply a random chord that sounded good and makes no theoretical sense.

[OliverBlackman]

[quote name='JakeBrownBass' timestamp='1339141068' post='1684151']
When unsure about keys, analyse the chord changes with Roman Numerals (this is a good exercise in it's self). You begin to find sub dominants, borrowed chords etc... Then when things start to really make no sense the song has generally, changed key or it's simply a random chord that sounded good and makes no theoretical sense.
[/quote]

porkpie hat is not like your average tune to analyse

When i tried to do it my tutor got out his berklee analysis. I'll see if i can find it anywhere

[skej21]

[quote name='JakeBrownBass' timestamp='1339141068' post='1684151']
it's simply a random chord that sounded good and makes no theoretical sense.
[/quote]

Unsure that you are correct here. I've never analysed a piece and found chord choices that cannot be explained theoretically...

Most of the time, these 'random' chords (as you describe them) are the result of a slight alteration to the key centre, known as a 'transient modulation'. This usually occurs as a side step into a related key momentarily (a good example of this would be a tritone substitution) or switching the diatonic chord through a small scale alteration.

For example, having a G7 chord (the diatonic dominant chord in C major) but changing that to G7b13 (the fifth diatonic chord of C melodic minor), you have created a transient modulation from C major to C melodic minor. That's not just a 'random' chord because it sounded good. It is usually followed by implied harmony in the melody that needs the b13 to act as a passing chromaticism to the next chord/melodic phrase.

I would be interested to see what you mean by 'random' chords though.

Ps, Nicolas Slonimskys book 'Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic Patterns' is a great book if you want to really understand the theory behind almost every possible element of melody and harmony

Edited June 8, 2012 by skej21

[lobematt]

Yeah I tried to figure out the chords by roman numerals, I failed haha.

I think this songs a bit beyond me at the moment but I'm half way through the transcription now so I may as well finish!

[Bilbo]

You can, of course, change the key signature throughout the chart. It works best when there are disctinctive key changes in a tune and can get really confusing in transcribing Jazz solos but it is an option.

[lobematt]

Are there any theory books you'd recommend, Bilbo? I'm getting to grips with the basics, what scale/arpeggio to use over certain chords and the modes and all that jazz (ba dum!)

I feel a bit like I'm getting there with theory as an individual musician, a soloist, but when it comes to the song as a whole I feel a bit lost still!

[Bilbo]

I always send people to Mark Levine's 'Jazz Theory' book but there are plenty of others that will do the trick. In truth, there isn't that much to actually learn. Its the application of what you learn that takes the time to absorb. That and remembering it all.

[paul_5]

Porkpie Hat is simply the most beautiful melody in the world - that is a scientific fact. I absolutely love this tune.

[Bilbo]

I always love his 'Self Portrait In Three Colours' from the same 'Mingus Ah Um' album.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkJfL6KQ058"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkJfL6KQ058[/url]

[Bilbo]

PS checked my fake book and it is in Ab in there!

[ZMech]

This reminds me of all those times I asked what I thought was a simple question, and regretted it 10 minutes into the answer.

[JakeBrownBass]

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1339149417' post='1684308']


Unsure that you are correct here. I've never analysed a piece and found chord choices that cannot be explained theoretically...

Most of the time, these 'random' chords (as you describe them) are the result of a slight alteration to the key centre, known as a 'transient modulation'. This usually occurs as a side step into a related key momentarily (a good example of this would be a tritone substitution) or switching the diatonic chord through a small scale alteration.

For example, having a G7 chord (the diatonic dominant chord in C major) but changing that to G7b13 (the fifth diatonic chord of C melodic minor), you have created a transient modulation from C major to C melodic minor. That's not just a 'random' chord because it sounded good. It is usually followed by implied harmony in the melody that needs the b13 to act as a passing chromaticism to the next chord/melodic phrase.

I would be interested to see what you mean by 'random' chords though.

Ps, Nicolas Slonimskys book 'Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic Patterns' is a great book if you want to really understand the theory behind almost every possible element of melody and harmony
[/quote]

Sorry, what I meant by 'random chords' is when you can get 1 chord in a song that doesn't 'work' with all the common analysis techniques. Where there's a single chord that's not a substition, borrowed chord, relative minor, parallel minor, modulation and any other harmonic device.

I'll dig out the last tune I looked at when I'm home, can't remember the name of it now.

The thing about analysing songs harmony is that it's not a set science.

Songs are generally written by hearing something, playing it, writing it down. Analysing it is the opposite, mean you will never really know what the original writer heard in their head and whether or not they wrote and shared a chart themself.

[paul_5]

[quote name='ZMech' timestamp='1339271867' post='1686296']
This reminds me of all those times I asked what I thought was a simple question, and regretted it 10 minutes into the answer.
[/quote]

Erm, this is Basschat, you [i]do [/i]know what we're like, don't you? There are no simple questions on here, just us simple bass players.

[lobematt]

[url="http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Be-Bop-Leonard-Feather/dp/1451530528"]http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Be-Bop-Leonard-Feather/dp/1451530528[/url]

Has anyone read this inside bebop??

[skej21]

[quote name='JakeBrownBass' timestamp='1339287043' post='1686532']


Sorry, what I meant by 'random chords' is when you can get 1 chord in a song that doesn't 'work' with all the common analysis techniques. Where there's a single chord that's not a substition, borrowed chord, relative minor, parallel minor, modulation and any other harmonic device.

I'll dig out the last tune I looked at when I'm home, can't remember the name of it now.

The thing about analysing songs harmony is that it's not a set science.

Songs are generally written by hearing something, playing it, writing it down. Analysing it is the opposite, mean you will never really know what the original writer heard in their head and whether or not they wrote and shared a chart themself.
[/quote]

I agree, but just because the composer might not have understood the harmony they used, doesn't mean that it can't be explained. Also, harmony, melody, music etc is a set science.

Just because rocks don't understand how fossils are formed, doesn't mean we don't understand it. It's about the level of understanding the person analysing has on how the music can be explained.

Like transcription. Just because one person doesn't have the skills to do it, doesn't mean it's beyond everyone.

Edited June 10, 2012 by skej21

[visog]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1339072730' post='1683226']
I'll try to explain. When players call a 12-bar blues in Bb, it is not actually in Bb, it's key centre starts in Eb major the key which the Bb7 is the dominant chord in. When it goes to the fifth bar, the chord of Eb7 is the dominant chord of the key of Ab major, so, whilst the tune is 'in' Eb, it isn't. THe head of the chart, however, will have a key signature that tells you which notes to play sharp or flat, it does not tell you that the key changes at the fifth bar etc.
[/quote]

Eh? What! Can you go again only slower...?

[JakeBrownBass]

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1339345669' post='1687157']


I agree, but just because the composer might not have understood the harmony they used, doesn't mean that it can't be explained. Also, harmony, melody, music etc is a set science.

Just because rocks don't understand how fossils are formed, doesn't mean we don't understand it. It's about the level of understanding the person analysing has on how the music can be explained.

Like transcription. Just because one person doesn't have the skills to do it, doesn't mean it's beyond everyone.
[/quote]

Yes but as with science there can abnormalities . I'm not talking about people that wrote the songs not understanding.

There are instances in songs where 1 chord is in there, out of the blue with no real explanation other than 'it changed key for half a bar or a bar'. And personally, that's not a valid analysis for me.