Linus27 Posted August 16, 2011 Author Share Posted August 16, 2011 [quote name='nottswarwick' post='1342529' date='Aug 16 2011, 10:54 PM']Out of interest how does the 2eq work? I know there are no centre detents unlike the 3 EQ so what is flat?[/quote] As Pete says, I think the general feeling is that with the bass turned all the way off, this is flat and adding just boosts it. The treble is cut and boost although nobody really knows where flat is so I am going with the middle is roughly flat and using my ears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linus27 Posted August 16, 2011 Author Share Posted August 16, 2011 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1342537' date='Aug 16 2011, 11:00 PM']Which actually means on a 3 EQ the detent is not flat its half boost.[/quote] Is that actually right? I thought the detent at 12 o'clock was flat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 [quote name='Linus27' post='1342540' date='Aug 16 2011, 11:05 PM']Is that actually right? I thought the detent at 12 o'clock was flat.[/quote] How can it be if its boost only? what would be less than the detent? As you know I never go there anyway! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nottswarwick Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 [quote name='Linus27' post='1342540' date='Aug 16 2011, 11:05 PM']Is that actually right? I thought the detent at 12 o'clock was flat.[/quote] Ooo well now so did I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Everyone on here has always said the bass is boost only on all versions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linus27 Posted August 16, 2011 Author Share Posted August 16, 2011 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1342550' date='Aug 16 2011, 11:10 PM']Everyone on here has always said the bass is boost only on all versions?[/quote] Mmm interesting, I don't know exactly for sure but I thought the 3EQ was cut and boost on bass, mid and treble. I am probably wrong and if so then thats something new I have learnt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Someone did actually give a good citation for all versions being boost only on the bass (the arguement was that all the knobs were boost only) but I cant find it! Makes more sense to be cut/boost with an indent but that means your cutting the bass by 30% rather than boosting it 20%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nottswarwick Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 There seems to be more to it. There is a section in mm website explaining it. Hang on.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nottswarwick Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 [url="http://www.music-man.com/faq/music-man-basses/how-does-the-3-band-eq-function-on-your-basses.html"]http://www.music-man.com/faq/music-man-bas...our-basses.html[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 [quote name='nottswarwick' post='1342567' date='Aug 16 2011, 11:28 PM']There seems to be more to it. There is a section in mm website explaining it. Hang on..[/quote] Taking some googling aint it?! There is a connection to the third post on the bass pot on the 3 EQ if that counts, Its left unused on the 2 EQ's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 [quote name='nottswarwick' post='1342568' date='Aug 16 2011, 11:29 PM'][url="http://www.music-man.com/faq/music-man-basses/how-does-the-3-band-eq-function-on-your-basses.html"]http://www.music-man.com/faq/music-man-bas...our-basses.html[/url][/quote] Everyone was wrong then? It alters depending on what the other knobs are doing is that right? Im more confused now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman20 Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 The 3EQ certainly feels and sounds like it's cut/boost. I always roll back treble at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linus27 Posted August 16, 2011 Author Share Posted August 16, 2011 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1342572' date='Aug 16 2011, 11:33 PM']Everyone was wrong then? It alters depending on what the other knobs are doing is that right? Im more confused now [/quote] I think everyone should just get a 2EQ and be done with it. They sound better anyway and why have 4 knobs on a bass when you can have 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 [quote name='Linus27' post='1342575' date='Aug 16 2011, 11:36 PM']I think everyone should just get a 2EQ and be done with it. They sound better anyway and why have 4 knobs on a bass when you can have 3 [/quote] Too true! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 [quote name='Musicman20' post='1342573' date='Aug 16 2011, 11:35 PM']The 3EQ certainly feels and sounds like it's cut/boost. I always roll back treble at the moment.[/quote] I am right in thinking like me you give the bass as good as the full beans on 2 or 3 eq versions? For me its Bass-Full, Mid- just off the indent on the boost side, Treble- on the indent or very slightly boosted. Amp as flat as possible, adjust amp mids to suit the room (Im crap at that though). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime_BASS Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 [quote name='Linus27' post='1342516' date='Aug 16 2011, 10:44 PM']Well rehearsal was very interesting. Played through the set with the settings posted above and it sounded alright. A little dark but generally good. We then played through the set again and this time I turned the VPF off and wow. The bass jumped out and had a lot more growl and attack. Still a little dark so I added about 10% more treble on the Ray and it just sounded so sweet. So this was my settings which I will try at the gig So after all that, apart from dialing the low mids off a bit, the MB combo works best flat and then set the treble and bass on the Ray to suit. Its been really helpful finding out how the 2EQ Preamp works. Thanks again for all the advice. Has been a real success for me to finally get the Stingray working and sounding great.[/quote] Yes another flat convert, screw you smiley face mission!! Surprising how good "flat" sounds in a mix. I've also said on other threads, going about it this way is easier to translate into of genres of music. I wouldn't worry what the MM.com site mumbles about. All it's doing is describing the frequency curve of the knobs, i.e the bass slopes from it's centre frequency. It would have been more useful putting up frequency curve graphs. MusicmanBass.org states that the pre-Eb 2EQ and current 2-EQ are the same. Bass is boost only with boost and cut treble. I'm not 100% sure, and not that bothered, but I'm pretty sure the 3EQ bass is boost only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismuzz Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 [quote name='Linus27' post='1342575' date='Aug 16 2011, 11:36 PM']I think everyone should just get a 2EQ and be done with it. They sound better anyway and why have 4 knobs on a bass when you can have 3 [/quote] This! Less to worry about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nottswarwick Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 [quote name='Prime_BASS' post='1342608' date='Aug 17 2011, 12:35 AM']Yes another flat convert, screw you smiley face mission!! Surprising how good "flat" sounds in a mix. I've also said on other threads, going about it this way is easier to translate into of genres of music. I wouldn't worry what the MM.com site mumbles about. All it's doing is describing the frequency curve of the knobs, i.e the bass slopes from it's centre frequency. It would have been more useful putting up frequency curve graphs. MusicmanBass.org states that the pre-Eb 2EQ and current 2-EQ are the same. Bass is boost only with boost and cut treble. I'm not 100% sure, and not that bothered, but I'm pretty sure the 3EQ bass is boost only.[/quote] It's more than just curves. They interact with each other it seems. Whatever, it works. Whilst you are of course correct about flat and mids being our friend from a live point of view, I do find that the ray needs a slight boost of the bass knob to give the lows some body and feel. Each yo their own Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1342580' date='Aug 16 2011, 11:44 PM']I am right in thinking like me you give the bass as good as the full beans on 2 or 3 eq versions? For me its Bass-Full, Mid- just off the indent on the boost side, Treble- on the indent or very slightly boosted. Amp as flat as possible, adjust amp mids to suit the room (Im crap at that though).[/quote] The thing is that with MM that is an awful lot of bass being put out. I no longer own a MM, but I had this the other week when a friend of mine was having problems with his Sterling and SVT3. He had the mids boosted and couldn't hear himself very well. This sounds odd on paper but you would have to know the amp and have heard his sound at the time, and also I don't think Ampeg ever get this EQ part right as they use a 5 point dial AND a short banded graphic. It really DOESN't work well, IMO Anyway, we seperated his sound to the point where he could hear defined notes ..which meant flushing out some of his clumsy mids from his amp...and he was happier in his playing and his monitoring. I listened to it out front and I don't think it is there yet, ..better ... but there is only so much influence you can impart as he has his playing style and his sound in his head. Plus he wasn't well versed in getting sounds either so too much would complicate things....KISS in these cases. He was happy but if I told him to do what I do... that wouldn't work for him. I certainly couldn't tell him to forget what HE wants just to satisfy my thoughts on his sound. If this was on a profressional basis , his job would be to produce the bass part, the sound engr's job would be to re-produce that. If the bass can't produce a sound he can play with..that trumps all else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linus27 Posted August 17, 2011 Author Share Posted August 17, 2011 [quote name='nottswarwick' post='1342715' date='Aug 17 2011, 08:47 AM']It's more than just curves. They interact with each other it seems. Whatever, it works. Whilst you are of course correct about flat and mids being our friend from a live point of view, I do find that the ray needs a slight boost of the bass knob to give the lows some body and feel. Each yo their own[/quote] Another thing thats worth taking into account is something Alex from Barefaced has mentioned. Its all very well having all these frequencies but if you have a bass cab that can't reproduce certain frequencies then you are always going to struggle. I think he said something along the lines that the Stingray goes down very low in the bass frequencies and also very prominent in the mids but if your bass cab can't reproduce these frequencies then you are going to struggle to get the best out of the bass. Seemed to make sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 [quote name='Linus27' post='1342575' date='Aug 16 2011, 11:36 PM']I think everyone should just get a 2EQ and be done with it. They sound better anyway and why have 4 knobs on a bass when you can have 3 [/quote] The reason they sound better arguably.....is that there is less to worry about and conflict... What can be more simple than just bass and treble...unless you are Jeff Berlin who just used to have a volume pot wired in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 [quote name='JTUK' post='1342719' date='Aug 17 2011, 08:49 AM']The thing is that with MM that is an awful lot of bass being put out. I no longer own a MM, but I had this the other week when a friend of mine was having problems with his Sterling and SVT3. He had the mids boosted and couldn't hear himself very well. This sounds odd on paper but you would have to know the amp and have heard his sound at the time, and also [b] I don't think Ampeg ever get this EQ part right as they use a 5 point dial AND a short banded graphic. It really DOESN't work well, IMO[/b][/quote] Totally agree with you there JTUK! I have played through several of those Ampegs and the eq on them is terrible IMO very unintuitive, and there seems to be little synergy between the various eq stages. I think the most important thing to do for your sound is eq with your ears not your eyes, and to listen to how the bass sits in the mix as a whole. If the result is a tone with no apparent mids according to the eq but it sits right, then you are good to go, the battle is against the common perception that because certain mid areas sound awful solo you should cut the hell out of them in a mix. Sometimes that may work, but it is very venue and band/genre/player/MIX specific and frankly unusual. Its always worth incvestigating less mid cut in the presence of the band, as often as not it will surprise the hell out of you. I'd like to thank Linus for trying all of these ideas and coming back to us with his findings. For him it turns out more mids than he thought were right for the mix, in that space, on that day, playing those songs. He now has a ballpark from which to tweak at different venues. It doesnt really matter whether you have huge PA support or are relying on your backline to provide the sound out front, the goal is the same, to be able to clearly hear your bass sound how you need to without treading on the rest of the band's toes. This is every bit as important with a huge PA, bass travels further (more energy) than anything else, and it spills to any other mics on stage more than anything else, the more focussed your sound the less volume you need on stage to hear yourself in the mix, the less spill, the easier the job is for the sound guys, the better than can make you sound. Simples.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman20 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Interesting 2EQ/3EQ points here. One thing I never struggle with is a Ray sounding good, no matter what. It can be as prominent as you like, or sit back. Pete - I always leave bass flat, mids flat (sometimes slighty budge up), treble rolled off a little. The 2EQ does apparently boost lower frequencies that the 3EQ, and they basically changed that because those types of frequencies are hard for amps/cabs to reproduce without more power and stress on the drivers. I think arguably they are virtually the same. You have more variation with a 3 though, and I love the mid control. Both great though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime_BASS Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 [quote name='Musicman20' post='1342854' date='Aug 17 2011, 10:44 AM']Interesting 2EQ/3EQ points here. One thing I never struggle with is a Ray sounding good, no matter what. It can be as prominent as you like, or sit back. Pete - I always leave bass flat, mids flat (sometimes slighty budge up), treble rolled off a little. The 2EQ does apparently boost lower frequencies that the 3EQ, and they basically changed that because those types of frequencies are hard for amps/cabs to reproduce without more power and stress on the drivers. I think arguably they are virtually the same. You have more variation with a 3 though, and I love the mid control. Both great though.[/quote] I think the 3EQ is slightly better (for me atleast) I think adding that mid control and having it flat flattens out the response than that of 2eq, which I find once you start boosting the treble can become quiet scooped, still an ace sound though. You are right Nottswarwick that the EQ bands interact, but this is true for pretty much every EQ section. Boosting lows to the top for example gives you maximum lows but it's 3 octave of 40hz is going to be 160hz(I think) and will be 12dB lower, 160hz will also be controlled by a low mid knob, so a low mid knob not boosted or cut won't leave the 160hz 12dB lower. I think that makes sense, but I'm no expert on this. It's not necerssarily clever, it's just what most EQa do, unless they have a very narrow band. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linus27 Posted August 17, 2011 Author Share Posted August 17, 2011 [quote name='51m0n' post='1342753' date='Aug 17 2011, 09:28 AM']I'd like to thank Linus for trying all of these ideas and coming back to us with his findings. For him it turns out more mids than he thought were right for the mix, in that space, on that day, playing those songs. He now has a ballpark from which to tweak at different venues.[/quote] No worries, I think its been a great discussion and not only has it helped me, hopefully it will help others when searching. For me, learning about how the 2EQ preamp works was really helpful. As was how the low mids and VPF filters change the dynamics. All good. I can now get back to doing what I do best, going fast in Gran Turismo 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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