Where does technique end, and music begin?

[topo morto]

[quote name='Earbrass' post='1319398' date='Jul 28 2011, 03:07 PM']Hmm, but aren't most people encumbered more by their [b]lack[/b] of technique than by a surplus? The more technique you have, the more options are at your fingertips - although it's still up to your musical sense to select the right option.[/quote]

There's often 'pressure' to 'use what you have' though... Also, if you've spent years practicing and developing those chops maybe it can end up affecting your 'musical sense' (not a problem I'm going to have any time soon)

Edited July 28, 2011 by topo morto

[lojo]

[quote name='Skol303' post='1319420' date='Jul 28 2011, 03:36 PM']Surely this is a bit like asking: where does vocabulary and grammar end and conversation (or perhaps poetry) begin?

If you're fluent in speaking French, for instance, then you'll find it easier to converse with French people - or even woo them with your poetic verse![/quote]


Not really because no one in the world is likely to come out with a french poem without a decent academic french knowledge, where as some people can produce some nice music without any academic knowledge

[Kongo]

[quote name='redstriper' post='1319555' date='Jul 28 2011, 05:37 PM']I haven't seen that DVD - would you mind summarising what he says about "practise versus playing".

Thanks for your time (if you have enough).

Steve.[/quote]

I'll pop it in and have a solid recap later on and post back here.
I took on what he said, but I'd rather refresh my memory before posting here, so you get all the info. :-)

[xilddx]

There's always that little bastard on your shoulder that screams "you boring twat" in your head when you've you've played something unmusical and purely technical. This bugger is always there and it's wise to listen.

[risingson]

[quote name='silddx' post='1319604' date='Jul 28 2011, 06:28 PM']There's always that little bastard on your shoulder that screams "you boring twat" in your head when you've you've played something unmusical and purely technical. This bugger is always there and it's wise to listen.[/quote]

Some bass players seem to suffer from the idea that they'll be forever under-appreciated and have to compensate. I think it's the same mentality that you describe here that drives people to put LED's in their fretmarkers. After all no one can be accused at the end of the night to have not paid attention to you as your fretboard has been lit up like a Christmas tree for the whole evening!

[4000]

[quote name='risingson' post='1319616' date='Jul 28 2011, 06:38 PM']Some bass players seem to suffer from the idea that they'll be forever under-appreciated and have to compensate. I think it's the same mentality that you describe here that drives people to put LED's in their fretmarkers. After all no one can be accused at the end of the night to have not paid attention to you as your fretboard has been lit up like a Christmas tree for the whole evening![/quote]

The only thing that ever prompted me to have LEDs as fretmarkers (and I've had 3 basses with them) is so I can see where I am on a darkened stage! Nothing to do with attention seeking. It actually really helps you know....

[xilddx]

[quote name='4000' post='1320038' date='Jul 29 2011, 08:20 AM']The only thing that ever prompted me to have LEDs as fretmarkers (and I've had 3 basses with them) is so I can see where I am on a darkened stage! Nothing to do with attention seeking. It actually really helps you know....[/quote]
Front or side?

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Skol303' post='1319339' date='Jul 28 2011, 02:25 PM']I mean, where does one opinion end and another begin...?? [/quote]

When one basschatter's post stops and another starts....


Seriously, though, I think technique in music is like technique in acting; if you can see it happening, its not working.

Trouble is that there are more impressionable kids whose heads are turned by Wootenesque excess than there are people who can recognise what makes a great musician truly great. It distorts everything. I was thinking about the slapping/popping/tapping stuff and wondered how many notes are played with those techniques that are truly musically appropriate as opposed to showboating. I suspect the ratio is not in favvour of musicality.

[algmusic]

[quote name='Earbrass' post='1319398' date='Jul 28 2011, 03:07 PM']Hmm, but aren't most people encumbered more by their [b]lack[/b] of technique than by a surplus? The more technique you have, the more options are at your fingertips - although it's still up to your musical sense to select the right option.[/quote]


It's being able to use your technique effectively.. I would say I have much more technical knowledge of music on drums. When I was younger, I always wanted to play the last 'trick' I learnt in my drum lesson or other teaching aid, but as I grew up musically, I used those tools to play what feels right for the music. So when I started playing bass much more seriously/professionally, I actually used what my limited knowledge to play the simple things well to play for the song, now I know much more I still take that view of just playing what feels right for the song, but at home, I practice techniques and I also practice just 'playing what comes out'. I think alot of people think that the top players, just play theory, but they actually and try things out and push the boundaries artistically to see what comes out, so when they play live they can ' just play what feels right' rather than just a theory.

[algmusic]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1320159' date='Jul 29 2011, 10:31 AM']When one basschatter's post stops and another starts....


Seriously, though, I think technique in music is like technique in acting; if you can see it happening, its not working.

Trouble is that there are more impressionable kids whose heads are turned by Wootenesque excess than there are people who can recognise what makes a great musician truly great. It distorts everything. I was thinking about the slapping/popping/tapping stuff and wondered how many notes are played with those techniques that are truly musically appropriate as opposed to showboating. I suspect the ratio is not in favvour of musicality.[/quote]

+1

when I was younger I used to love watching marcus miller soloing and slapping etc.. now I actually have realised that the part of his playing that is king is his groove and you see that when he is playing for others playing simple things and not soloing. TBH, I couldn't listen to the whole of his solo album now, but could easily listen to his work with Al Jarreau playing with Steve Gadd

[JTUK]

ok..fret markers..Top only.
I don't ever bother to fire mine up as the battery drain is silly...so on balance I'd say a useless addition....you need a decent lights anyway...not only to see.


A slight deviation here,... just watching Meat Loaf on Sky Arts and his band is great for this gig..
They really are able to make the music that is utter drivel, listenable.

So in that sense, technique before music.

[xilddx]

[quote name='algmusic' post='1320185' date='Jul 29 2011, 10:54 AM']It's being able to use your technique effectively.. I would say I have much more technical knowledge of music on drums. When I was younger, I always wanted to play the last 'trick' I learnt in my drum lesson or other teaching aid, but as I grew up musically, I used those tools to play what feels right for the music. So when I started playing bass much more seriously/professionally, I actually used what my limited knowledge to play the simple things well to play for the song, now I know much more I still take that view of just playing what feels right for the song, but at home, I practice techniques and I also practice just 'playing what comes out'. I think alot of people think that the top players, just play theory, but they actually and try things out and push the boundaries artistically to see what comes out, so when they play live they can ' just play what feels right' rather than just a theory.[/quote]
I think you're right. And boundaries have to be pushed. However, I think the best musical development is often developing one's own musical philosophy, and that comes from immersing oneself in listening, reading, playing, recording, discussing etc.

I think when you start to find what it is about music you like, dislike, love, find easy and difficult, you start to strip away what is unnecessary for your own expression, and develop what is. Sometimes forums like this can put a lot of pressure on people to feel they need to learn this, that, and the other - and often it takes a lot of will to turn it around and truly believe you can be expressive and fulfilled without certain elements of what might be called an accomplished musician, Being able to play all styles, sight-read, knowing a variety of techniques and such.

I think the process is a sort of self-sculpture, chipping away at what is NOT you, and revealing what IS you. Then you can learn what you really want and need because you have a purpose and it will be inspiring.

[algmusic]

[quote name='silddx' post='1320234' date='Jul 29 2011, 11:27 AM']I think you're right. And boundaries have to be pushed. However, I think the best musical development is often developing one's own musical philosophy, and that comes from immersing oneself in listening, reading, playing, recording, discussing etc.

I think when you start to find what it is about music you like, dislike, love, find easy and difficult, you start to strip away what is unnecessary for your own expression, and develop what is. Sometimes forums like this can put a lot of pressure on people to feel they need to learn this, that, and the other - and often it takes a lot of will to turn it around and truly believe you can be expressive and fulfilled without certain elements of what might be called an accomplished musician, Being able to play all styles, sight-read, knowing a variety of techniques and such.

I think the process is a sort of self-sculpture, chipping away at what is NOT you, and revealing what IS you. Then you can learn what you really want and need because you have a purpose and it will be inspiring.[/quote]


You have explained what I wanted say in a much better way

[BigRedX]

[quote name='silddx' post='1320234' date='Jul 29 2011, 11:27 AM']...forums like this can put a lot of pressure on people to feel they need to learn this, that, and the other...[/quote]
For me I find the opposite to be true. Mainly because the examples used in favour of these arguments do little to float my boat musically.

[xilddx]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='1320529' date='Jul 29 2011, 03:08 PM']For me I find the opposite to be true. Mainly because the examples used in favour of these arguments do little to float my boat musically.[/quote]
That's fine but you know your mind. I for instance don't, so I have tried learning various things because I'm told I should, but to no avail because I just don't use them in the real world. So this is part of my sculpting process.

I certainly know what you mean about the examples used

[risingson]

[quote name='4000' post='1320038' date='Jul 29 2011, 08:20 AM']The only thing that ever prompted me to have LEDs as fretmarkers (and I've had 3 basses with them) is so I can see where I am on a darkened stage! Nothing to do with attention seeking. It actually really helps you know....[/quote]

I was just joking I was in fact toying with the idea of doing it for a time back in the days when Stuart Zender was my bass hero