Bilbo Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Have also read the comments below the article and am pleased to see it caused such a great reaction. Unlike most of my posts in this thread! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassace Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Yes, good article and very good comments to follow. Not sure whether I agree fully with the supposition but certainly thought-provoking. Most of the old leaders had good management, some of it related to the Mob, and perhaps that's where the real entrepreneurship came in. Having taken a qualification in management - sorry 'bout that - is the recognition of the management style continuum. By that I mean that all managers lead their team in their own individual style. On one end of the continuum is the dictator who leads his team absolutely and takes no comment, input or contribution from his team; he tells them what to do. At the other end is the passive manager whose team practically manage and dictate to him. Both are extreme examples although they exist! The fun is in between these far out styles, more towards the center where right of centre the manager is in control with a lot of input from his team and left of centre the team members have the majority of ideas and input into the outfit. And so it is with band leaders and perhaps it is more relevant to consider this rather that the entrepreneur thing. It's not only jazz but applies to all forms of music making and perhaps bcers will recognise where the centre of gravity lies in their outfits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Surely a lot of it is about group dynamics; forming, storming, norming and performing. I guess a lot of it is about using the idea of a jazz band as a metaphor. Like all such things, it only works to a point. I did a business studies course too at age 17-19 (day release). Bored me senseless (I literally slept though some of it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassace Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1326282621' post='1494817'] I did a business studies course too at age 17-19 (day release). Bored me senseless (I literally slept though some of it). [/quote] Real management potential there then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earbrass Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 [quote name='bassace' timestamp='1326282315' post='1494810'] The fun is in between these far out styles, more towards the center where right of centre the manager is in control with a lot of input from his team and left of centre the team members have the majority of ideas and input into the outfit. [/quote] Can I just add, as someone who has spent nearly 30 on the receiving end of management of varying quality, that in my experience the most important rule of being managed is to avoid dispelling the illusion managers have that they are in control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatback Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Very interesting. I'm not sure that what they're looking at is entrepreneurship though. I recognise what they're talking about in terms of managing creative teams, but management and entrepreneurship are not the same thing, although overlap is usual. In my (fairly wide) experience, entrepreneurs are driven, individualistic, inspirational but often disorganised, difficult to constrain and often containing the seeds of the project's destruction. Rock stars, anyone? When they suceed, it's often because of the moderating influences around them, often people who work to mitigate the chaotic side of their natures. Maybe why entrepreneurial partnerships vcan be very successful. Are there any notable jazz partnerships? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ead Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I've not read all 26 pages of the thread, but would like to say that I received a copy of Live at the Pawnshop for Christmas. Apparently it's one of the seminal Jazz recordings and it's certainly a great listen. I'd recommend it for people with an unscratched Jazz-related itch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatback Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) Never thought I'd be posting in this thread.. Totally by accident came across Ahmad Jamal on a French TV channel last night. Jazz in Vienna gig. Now this kind of jazz I can live with. James Kammack on bass - awesome. This seems to be the same gig (although not the best track): [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dS2fRAmjFE[/media] Edited February 2, 2012 by fatback Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hector Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 [quote name='fatback' timestamp='1326284449' post='1494856'] Very interesting. I'm not sure that what they're looking at is entrepreneurship though. I recognise what they're talking about in terms of managing creative teams, but management and entrepreneurship are not the same thing, although overlap is usual. In my (fairly wide) experience, entrepreneurs are driven, individualistic, inspirational but often disorganised, difficult to constrain and often containing the seeds of the project's destruction. Rock stars, anyone? When they suceed, it's often because of the moderating influences around them, often people who work to mitigate the chaotic side of their natures. Maybe why entrepreneurial partnerships vcan be very successful. Are there any notable jazz partnerships? [/quote] Most enduring: Ellington & Strayhorn Mingus and Dannie Richmond Bird & Diz (quite an interesting partnership) Less Enduring: Evans & LaFaro Chet Baker & Dick Twardzik Chet Baker & Gerry Mulligan Probably more, but these are just off the top of my head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted February 9, 2012 Author Share Posted February 9, 2012 If we are talking jazz partnerships that have stood the test of time there are many: Tony Bennett - Ralph Sharon Carla Bley - Steve Swallow John Scofield - Steve Swallow Pat Metheny - Lyle Mays Branford MArsalis - Jeff Watts Sonny Rollins - Bob Cranshaw Oscar Peterson - Ray Brown Cleo Laine - John Dankworth the list is endless. If we are talking business relationships in Jazz, its Ronnie Scott and Pete King or Lorraine and Max Gordon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 In case you miss it (which you would if you only ever get your news of TV).... 54th Grammy Awards - Jazz categories (winners followed by nominees Best Improvised Jazz Solo "500 Miles High" – Chick Corea "All or Nothing at All" – Randy Brecker "You Are My Sunshine" – Ron Carter "Work" – Fred Hersch "Sonnymoon for Two" – Sonny Rollins Best Jazz Vocal Album The Mosaic Project – Terri Lyne Carrington & Various Artists 'Round Midnight – Karrin Allyson The Gate – Kurt Elling American Road – Tierney Sutton (Band) The Music of Randy Newman – Roseanna Vitro Best Jazz Instrumental Album Forever – Corea, Clarke & White Bond: The Paris Sessions – Gerald Clayton Alone at the Vanguard – Fred Hersch Bird Songs – Joe Lovano & Us Five Road Shows Vol. 2 – Sonny Rollins Timeline – Yellowjackets Best Large Jazz Ensemble Album The Good Feeling – Christian McBride Big Band The Jazz Ballad Song Book – Randy Brecker with DR Big Band 40 Acres and a Burro – Arturo O'Farrill & The Afro Latin Jazz Orchestra Legacy – Gerald Wilson Orchestra Alma Adentro: The Puerto Rican Songbook – Miguel Zenón Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrenleepoole Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Is it me, or are the Grammy's pointless with regards to jazz? Don't get me wrong, all the nominees are worthy players etc etc. But every year I see the same thing happen - a group of artists, performers etc get nominated who all seem to offer 'jazz' that is safe, predictable and done-to-death! Maybe I'm missing the point and the Grammy's are just for American artists. But there's a whole host of jazz performers outside of America that are pushing the 'art form' of jazz to new and better levels of performance and creativity and musicianship. Point-in-case: I saw a jazz quartet live last Thursday down at my local. All the players were great: Gary Boyle from Isotope, a killer upright player called Bruce Reid, drummer was Ian Bell and an up and coming sax player called Ben Allen. Every single piece, without exception, went like this: head, sax solo, guitar solo, bass solo, drum solo, head. Every single song the same. Great playing for sure, but no playing about with the structure or form etc. Granted, this was a thrown together band to support the sax player. But seriously, are really good players lacking such imagination that they can't think to do something a little different? Unfortunately, this is the type of thing that you hear time and again from a lot of jazz artists, and the Grammy's seem to celebrate this in abundance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatback Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 [quote name='derrenleepoole' timestamp='1329138489' post='1537604'] But seriously, are really good players lacking such imagination that they can't think to do something a little different? Unfortunately, this is the type of thing that you hear time and again from a lot of jazz artists, and the Grammy's seem to celebrate this in abundance. [/quote] It's the main (but not the only) reason why so many people can't stand jazz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blademan_98 Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Don't tell anyone, but I just got a Jazz notation book from the library It is only to help me with reading....... honest! (my misses is no longer talking to me) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatback Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Blademan_98' timestamp='1329158669' post='1538146'] Don't tell anyone, but I just got a Jazz notation book from the library It is only to help me with reading....... honest! (my misses is no longer talking to me) [/quote] I have to admit that 95% of my listening is now jazz. Not long ago, i would have shot myself for saying that. I now see that once you dig through the dross, there's some wonderful music. What a lot of dross there is to get through though (which could, of course, be said of any genre). Edited February 13, 2012 by fatback Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 That is a serious problem, Derren. The head solos head criticism is a legitimate one and it has been heard by many of the new wave of artists who are approaching their material more creatively. But it remans de rigeur on the UK because there is no funding for luxuries like rehearsals etc and it can be an easy route to a credible product. But, yes, it is lazy. I think also that there are many who a middle aged and older who have less time to be able to dedicate to the one-off projects. If someone offers you 12 dates, you will arrange stuff and rehearse but, for a one off, no chance. Writing out complex charts is an option but it will increase the risk of a train wreck and there are some players that will always default to the standard reportoire (there are plenty of jazzers who have weak reading skills). I did a gig last year with a great local sax player and we really burned but he won't do anything other than the standards and, as a result, I am working with a player who is less skilled but more incined to try new stuff. Its a real issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrenleepoole Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Yeah Bilbo you're right, and I don't blame performers for taking the easy route. It's all too easy not to see the bigger picture of why we seem to get head-solo-head jazz. And of course, a thrown together band for a one-off gig for beer money is not going to be rehearsed. I guess it's just frustrating to see a legend like Gary Boyle of a fusion super group Isotope just doing the rounds. There were moments though when you could hear the fire of fusion trying to break out, but he had to hold it in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share Posted February 15, 2012 ONe of the commone probelms is that many capable jazzers are also involved in other pieces of work, be that theatre work, function bands or even tribute bands (one of the better players I used to work with is now playing keys with PRofessor Green!!). Every one of these alternatives pays better than most jazz gigs so, if someone is a pro and have a mortgage/family etc, they are going to have to take the 'other' gig rather than the jazz gig. Multiply this by several players in a reheased ensemble and you have a major disincentive to invest time and effort into properly prepared material. This creates the head-solos-head cultlre and the negative image of which you speak i.e. its self defeating. I have my own trio now that I am writing for (nearly 30 original jazz tunes to look at) but it has taken me over a year to get to the first rehearsal!! It will be interesting to see how it moves forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverBlackman Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 good year for jazz so far! Neil Cowley trio's album "The Face of Mount Molehill" is becoming a favourite of mine and also Robert Glasper today released "Black Radio." Spent more time listening than plain at the moment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted February 27, 2012 Author Share Posted February 27, 2012 Glasper floats my boat but Cowley hasn't grabbed my ears yet. Might try again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverBlackman Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1330377723' post='1556578'] Glasper floats my boat but Cowley hasn't grabbed my ears yet. Might try again. [/quote] For me its not an album that i think, "wow thats new and exciting." It's just very pleasant and flows nicely. Good to listen to after chromazone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_5 Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 I just discovered "Blue Trane" last week. I love Jazz too - that's a superb album. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='paul_5' timestamp='1330380770' post='1556668'] I just discovered "Blue Trane" last week. I love Jazz too - that's a superb album. [/quote] Try 'Blues and the Abstract Truth' by Oliver Nelson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassace Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1330434793' post='1557362'] Try 'Blues and the Abstract Truth' by Oliver Nelson [/quote] Plus one! This head/choruses/head thing is nothing new, of course. It informed most of the modern jazz - incl bebop, and even Kind of Blue is very much h/ch/h. I very much applaud those who are doing their best to break out of that particular mould. But that is very 'project' based and requires quite a fair amount of rehearsal. So there can be a danger that spontaneity is lost. One of the bands I play in is a five piece but it's still reading all the way from charts that come from the leader who spends an amazing amount of time arranging. Great fun, but equally, it's great to do a pickup gig with some good musicians and do the h/ch/h thing and get a great kick out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 I get around that by writing charts that have long blowing sections that are 'standard' pattern so, after the intensity of reading heads/arrangements, we get the buzz of stretching out. I guess its the nature of the art of composing for jazz and the art of improvisation as opposed to through scoring and fully written scores. Would love to hear some of your mates charts, bassace. Anything out there we can link to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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