EBS_freak

"Handbags"

Gosh, I think it's you that has a problem with me! I also don't think Alex's cabs are magic - something we agree on. And I think you are missing the whole point of this conversation... and the science is to prove that despite the marketing, they are in fact, no different to anything else out there. (Handle and feet issues aside) - yes, they work for a whole host of people, due to their form factor and great, good for them. I don't like the fact they don't take a 19" rack without overhang... and as for weight, well, there's plenty of other cabs of a comparable weight - this thinking that BF are the only option for lightweight has long since been debunked. But you know what grinds my gears, I have to accept that there's people that like Barefaced - and that's fine - but then there's people who are very considered when it comes to gear - and if they dare question any specification, any design choice or literally anything in this case, I have a load of owners trying to start on me. If you don't think that is the case, look at your input to the thread and look at your actions right now. That is an unfortunate manner in my book. Re: I have never said that a FR800<>RCF 745. Never. Like above. Link me up. I don't think I have ever made any direct comparisons between the two as to say anybody should buy one over the other. The fact is, the 745 has drivers in it, which you wouldn't typically find in a PA cab for under at least £2000 a piece. Therefore, it would be ludicrous with anybody with the budget to not at least investigate them. RCF is both a PA manufacturer and speaker manufacturer with a lot of know how. They even own the company that make the amps now. Alex is an enthusiastic turned builder - with not even half the experience of these guys. And you may think I'm a RCF fan. No, not particularly - I've just done a lot of research to see which manufacturer is the best bang for buck... and yes, I think they rate very highly. Would they be my first choice of PA? No. But the costs of ownership of D&B and L'Acoustics in addition to the ability to move them, is not what I'm after. What I have commented on is the following - The voice coil sizes between the two cabs. The calculated specifications of the RCF compared to the Mackie SRM450 and the expected performance differences between the two. I've told somebody to listen to the RCF as they have a different top end to a lot of other PAs. The flat response of a RCF745 (and in this thread, it's suitability of a FRFR cab) The power amps of the two cabs. The resale prices of the two cabs. The aesthetics of the two cabs. I think the RCF is butt hurt ugly. I don't think that the FR800 is particularly attractive either. The sizes of the two cabs. I have questioned the crossover and amp setup in the FR800. I do believe you are making this into something that it isn't. If you ask Happy Jack nicely, there may be room on his hammock. PS - what I do know about you, is that I wouldn't trust you to fix an amp.... oh and I'm still waiting for the links.

[quote name='markstuk' timestamp='1495123391' post='3301487'] Although I'm waiting for the RCF745 intervention from the normal suspects :-) [/quote] I was going to say FR800s but I think I get the feeling that the budget isn't going to be there.

PS my standard 5 string bass (strung as standard with B -> G) goes lower than other manufacturers basses. Just so you know. Why? Cos I say so.

Ha - I was adding my pedantic remark as you responded. Seemed like I was able to second guess you. I'm not aware of max SPLs of any manufacturer being quoted in a 6dB range - link me up please. I don't have a problem with Alex. I think there is a big misconception here. I have a problem with misleading marketing and technobabble dressing up a product that is fundamentally no different to any other. As demonstrated before, and as I have mentioned above, I will call any manufacturer, Alex or otherwise, on stuff that I think is questionable. You have to admit, banding around that both your speakers and your cabs are equal to TWO of other manufacturers products is a big claim... and as such, should be validated appropriately. I couldn't care less about your experience of BF or Berg either. It tells me nothing about their performance - and I don't have any experience of you as a person to put any trust in your non tangible experiences with said products. This is not personal... it's just the same as not trusting a guy with my wallet who I've just met and don't know from Adam. Subs are nothing to do with FRFR cabs... but I think we both agree that the conversation has gone way beyond that... and it wasn't my doing. Call it the natural flow of a thread.

Err. What are you talking about? Do you not understand my response to Alex? Here's a clue. Even when he changes the measurement from continuous to max, the figures still don't add up. Here you go... let me change the challenge to go hand in hand with Alex's change in spec. OK, I'll open up a challenge - find me a commercially produced, powered 2x18 subwoofer, at any cost, that puts out circa 136dB max SPL. Don't just accept marketing spiel... validate it! I realise that the pedantic out there may say, well, most 2x18s will do 136dB - the point is, they will also do a hell of a lot more. Here's a clue for you - most 1x18s of a comparable price to the Barefaced are in the same region max SPL... and certainly not up to being compared to a 2x18 which are typically around 140dB.

Cool. Even best case though, 136dB is still not comparable to a typical 2x18. It is however, more in the ballpark of other 1x18s. PS - using the word "about", when talking specs isn't great either.

No pleasing some! OK, I'll open up a challenge - find me a commercially produced, powered 2x18 subwoofer, at any cost, that puts out circa 130dB max SPL. Don't just accept marketing spiel... validate it!

Of course, what you should be asking me is if my design was intended to be used on - or off - axis... because 99% of the surrounding facial hair may not be in the cutting line.

Are you stealing my designs?!

Ha ha. One thing I did recall is that it was less than 200 bhp. Not bad for 6.75 V8 lump!

Those old Rollers were hardly sufficient when fully laden and going up a 1:3. It's a true story - I thought I would have to get out and push the old girl up that hill.

Watch out for my razor build in the projects section. My resulting single razor will be comparable to typical double bladed razors. Ridiculous isn't it?

Ah yes, right you are!

Ah. Time for the old classic! Rolls-Royce. BHP: Enough

I can see why you like lightweight cabs. There's absolutely no support for your back with that effort.

There is not a witch hunt. Lets make that clear. And lets face it, any product that has me questioning it's claims, gets me asking questions. You only have to look at the Smooth Hound thread to see my points about latency. This isn't personal digs... this is my comment on the specs of the product and it's performance. I've done the same with Sheldon Dingwall and mixed scaled lengths. I've done the same the same with Ashdown. I've done the same with EBS. I've done the same with Ernie Ball. Thats just a small selection - I could continue... but any company that is waving wares in front of my face in a bid to get me to buy should expect to be questioned. I think you are mistaken if you think that Barefaced is being singled out - there have been similar discussions all across the forum by lots of different members about all sorts of products... Ashdown, Shuker, Rickenbacker, Dr Bass, Warwick, DR... there are plenty of examples if you choose to open your eyes. Some manufacturers and even some retailers choose to sign up and respond - that's their right. Alex chooses to respond - and as such, if he enters into conversation, he should expect some interaction and further questions. I can't imagine Stevie sending his graphs to the manufactures like you suggest... but what I can imagine him doing, is posting it up on a forum and corresponding with the appropriate parties if they choose to get involved in the discussion. I don't believe Stevie has emailed anything directly to Barefaced... but then again, I wouldn't know, I'm not his keeper. 2007 - I don't give a rats about anybody's home projects... if somebody wants to build a cab, all power to them. That's great. I don't believe I have mocked anybody's projects, let alone Alex's Big One build. What I do have issue with, is what I witnessed shortly afterwards when it turned into a commercial project... which was the way that the marketing of that cab, The Big One, claimed it would solve all problems for all players. In fact, I remember witnessing Alex being quite derogatory about player's gear and other brands. Anyway, a bass cab that required at least a 1k Watts was actually adding to the problems of people with pre-existing gear. I didn't like the idea that guys with 500W amps were struggling to power their new cab. If you didn't get the results out of his cabs, it was down to your playing style, your bass, your pickups, your strings... But hey. You mentioned that he went off and succeeded - isn't the fact that these type of threads exists questioning whether he did in fact succeed? Things have moved on - but the claims are still wild. I still see that nobody has commented on the 18inch Sub that I have mentioned numerous times. BF claim - on their website - that it keeps up with a typical 2x18 cab. Bearing in mind, on paper, it would take 3 BF subs to keep up with one of my 18 inch subs, I'm amazed that a claim that it will keep up with a 2x18 can be made - and it has certainly got my attention. It should be pointed out that a typical 2x18 cab could be expected to achieve 140dB or just under for it's max SPL. Yes, the BF sub is super light for a 18 sub... but a high output (remember - as loud as a 2x18), lightweight sub is the holy grail... and I refuse to believe that Barefaced are the first people that have managed to develop such a thing. The max SPL they are claiming is the first pointer that things don't appear to be quite as they seem. There's companies out there spending untold amounts of money in research in this area. Perhaps BF have nailed it... but then again, none of my questions have been acknowledged let alone answered. But hey, the attacks on me are always guaranteed. I don't need to build cabs for a living. I don't want to build cabs for a living. I make more than enough money without going down that path. Hell, I want to BUY cabs. But I also feel I should be informed about the cabs that I am buying. That wouldn't be unreasonable right? Happy Jack - I think you need to chill out. You have a Barefaced cab. I get it. Enjoy it. If you aren't interested in the science behind the claims, keep out this playground.

[quote name='Japhet' timestamp='1495026517' post='3300576'] I much prefer the sound through my cab than what comes out of the PA. Since 85% of what we play doesn't require me to go through the PA (thankfully), it's important for me to be able to hear what I'm playing, so dispersion is really important to me. [/quote] Agreed - but it all depends on whether your audience feel the same way. The key thing is to be able to get the sound what you want from your rig via DI or mic or combination of both to push out to the FOH. I've gone Kemper for this exact reason - if I like the sound from the kemper in my inears, it stands a good chance that the audience will hear similar through the front of house.

What's wrong with discussion? Is Barefaced off limits or something? There's no bickering - there's conversation about the claims made by Barefaced and whether they actually stack up. Let's not forget that the Barefaced products are not insignificant money - and in my book, that does not make discussion about them trivial, especially when there are claims being made about the products that may, or may not be questionable. Of course, there is an easy solution... if you want don't want to participate in conversations like this... don't!

Thats an interesting point - especially when I see the new 18 subwoofer. What 2x18 in particular was the benchmark for that statement?

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1494949375' post='3299892'] Only below the point where the baffle is one wavelength across, ie., the baffle step frequency. With a typical 410 that's at about 500Hz. Above that dispersion is at best 180 degrees. Then there's the matter of the cone diameter. Above where it is one wavelength dispersion rapidly narrows. With a ten that's above roughly 1.6kHz. Put those two tens side by side and the dispersion is more than halved compared to with one, and we haven't even touched on comb filtering, which occurs above where the driver center to center distance is one wavelength. [/quote] I didn't necessarily say it was going to be a nice bass sound! I always found backline to be a compromise in some way... hence why I sacked it all off and went IEM. Leave the FOH to do it all.

But your Barefaced setup is far from FRFR... which is what this thread is meant to be about.

For home use, I was pleasantly surprised by the PJB Double 4. I don't know what your budget is - but certainly worth investigating for at home if you have the cash. In answer to your direct question - if it's cheap enough - it's worth a punt, right?

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1494946253' post='3299859'] That's certainly my experience, as far as "bass" frequencies are concerned. However, I do find mid range to be rather more focused and therefore more susceptible to dispersion issues. It all depends on the sound you go for I suppose. [/quote] Agreed - this is why I think the idea of having a cab to do foh duties is fundamentally flawed and going to compromise the sound that the audience hear. If you are micing up the guitar to get around the directional issues associated with say, a guitar (which many bands don't - which is why you can't hear a balanced sounding guitar in a crowded pub unless you are standing in right of it - and then it's likely to be melting your face off), you may as well do the same for your bass - assuming that your PA can take it. I understand that not going through the PA and getting backline to do FOH duties may be more convenient - but you are always going to have a compromise in that setup. That's why I reckon it's best to get a bass rig you can hear on stage so your own monitoring needs are sorted and leave what the audience hear to foh. But thats just me.

Meh, if people can't deal with a tongue in cheek comment in a forum, then God help them in the real world.