EBS_freak

Watch out for my razor build in the projects section. My resulting single razor will be comparable to typical double bladed razors. Ridiculous isn't it?

Ah yes, right you are!

Ah. Time for the old classic! Rolls-Royce. BHP: Enough

I can see why you like lightweight cabs. There's absolutely no support for your back with that effort.

There is not a witch hunt. Lets make that clear. And lets face it, any product that has me questioning it's claims, gets me asking questions. You only have to look at the Smooth Hound thread to see my points about latency. This isn't personal digs... this is my comment on the specs of the product and it's performance. I've done the same with Sheldon Dingwall and mixed scaled lengths. I've done the same the same with Ashdown. I've done the same with EBS. I've done the same with Ernie Ball. Thats just a small selection - I could continue... but any company that is waving wares in front of my face in a bid to get me to buy should expect to be questioned. I think you are mistaken if you think that Barefaced is being singled out - there have been similar discussions all across the forum by lots of different members about all sorts of products... Ashdown, Shuker, Rickenbacker, Dr Bass, Warwick, DR... there are plenty of examples if you choose to open your eyes. Some manufacturers and even some retailers choose to sign up and respond - that's their right. Alex chooses to respond - and as such, if he enters into conversation, he should expect some interaction and further questions. I can't imagine Stevie sending his graphs to the manufactures like you suggest... but what I can imagine him doing, is posting it up on a forum and corresponding with the appropriate parties if they choose to get involved in the discussion. I don't believe Stevie has emailed anything directly to Barefaced... but then again, I wouldn't know, I'm not his keeper. 2007 - I don't give a rats about anybody's home projects... if somebody wants to build a cab, all power to them. That's great. I don't believe I have mocked anybody's projects, let alone Alex's Big One build. What I do have issue with, is what I witnessed shortly afterwards when it turned into a commercial project... which was the way that the marketing of that cab, The Big One, claimed it would solve all problems for all players. In fact, I remember witnessing Alex being quite derogatory about player's gear and other brands. Anyway, a bass cab that required at least a 1k Watts was actually adding to the problems of people with pre-existing gear. I didn't like the idea that guys with 500W amps were struggling to power their new cab. If you didn't get the results out of his cabs, it was down to your playing style, your bass, your pickups, your strings... But hey. You mentioned that he went off and succeeded - isn't the fact that these type of threads exists questioning whether he did in fact succeed? Things have moved on - but the claims are still wild. I still see that nobody has commented on the 18inch Sub that I have mentioned numerous times. BF claim - on their website - that it keeps up with a typical 2x18 cab. Bearing in mind, on paper, it would take 3 BF subs to keep up with one of my 18 inch subs, I'm amazed that a claim that it will keep up with a 2x18 can be made - and it has certainly got my attention. It should be pointed out that a typical 2x18 cab could be expected to achieve 140dB or just under for it's max SPL. Yes, the BF sub is super light for a 18 sub... but a high output (remember - as loud as a 2x18), lightweight sub is the holy grail... and I refuse to believe that Barefaced are the first people that have managed to develop such a thing. The max SPL they are claiming is the first pointer that things don't appear to be quite as they seem. There's companies out there spending untold amounts of money in research in this area. Perhaps BF have nailed it... but then again, none of my questions have been acknowledged let alone answered. But hey, the attacks on me are always guaranteed. I don't need to build cabs for a living. I don't want to build cabs for a living. I make more than enough money without going down that path. Hell, I want to BUY cabs. But I also feel I should be informed about the cabs that I am buying. That wouldn't be unreasonable right? Happy Jack - I think you need to chill out. You have a Barefaced cab. I get it. Enjoy it. If you aren't interested in the science behind the claims, keep out this playground.

[quote name='Japhet' timestamp='1495026517' post='3300576'] I much prefer the sound through my cab than what comes out of the PA. Since 85% of what we play doesn't require me to go through the PA (thankfully), it's important for me to be able to hear what I'm playing, so dispersion is really important to me. [/quote] Agreed - but it all depends on whether your audience feel the same way. The key thing is to be able to get the sound what you want from your rig via DI or mic or combination of both to push out to the FOH. I've gone Kemper for this exact reason - if I like the sound from the kemper in my inears, it stands a good chance that the audience will hear similar through the front of house.

What's wrong with discussion? Is Barefaced off limits or something? There's no bickering - there's conversation about the claims made by Barefaced and whether they actually stack up. Let's not forget that the Barefaced products are not insignificant money - and in my book, that does not make discussion about them trivial, especially when there are claims being made about the products that may, or may not be questionable. Of course, there is an easy solution... if you want don't want to participate in conversations like this... don't!

Thats an interesting point - especially when I see the new 18 subwoofer. What 2x18 in particular was the benchmark for that statement?

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1494949375' post='3299892'] Only below the point where the baffle is one wavelength across, ie., the baffle step frequency. With a typical 410 that's at about 500Hz. Above that dispersion is at best 180 degrees. Then there's the matter of the cone diameter. Above where it is one wavelength dispersion rapidly narrows. With a ten that's above roughly 1.6kHz. Put those two tens side by side and the dispersion is more than halved compared to with one, and we haven't even touched on comb filtering, which occurs above where the driver center to center distance is one wavelength. [/quote] I didn't necessarily say it was going to be a nice bass sound! I always found backline to be a compromise in some way... hence why I sacked it all off and went IEM. Leave the FOH to do it all.

But your Barefaced setup is far from FRFR... which is what this thread is meant to be about.

For home use, I was pleasantly surprised by the PJB Double 4. I don't know what your budget is - but certainly worth investigating for at home if you have the cash. In answer to your direct question - if it's cheap enough - it's worth a punt, right?

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1494946253' post='3299859'] That's certainly my experience, as far as "bass" frequencies are concerned. However, I do find mid range to be rather more focused and therefore more susceptible to dispersion issues. It all depends on the sound you go for I suppose. [/quote] Agreed - this is why I think the idea of having a cab to do foh duties is fundamentally flawed and going to compromise the sound that the audience hear. If you are micing up the guitar to get around the directional issues associated with say, a guitar (which many bands don't - which is why you can't hear a balanced sounding guitar in a crowded pub unless you are standing in right of it - and then it's likely to be melting your face off), you may as well do the same for your bass - assuming that your PA can take it. I understand that not going through the PA and getting backline to do FOH duties may be more convenient - but you are always going to have a compromise in that setup. That's why I reckon it's best to get a bass rig you can hear on stage so your own monitoring needs are sorted and leave what the audience hear to foh. But thats just me.

Meh, if people can't deal with a tongue in cheek comment in a forum, then God help them in the real world.

I'm not entirely sure either - being able to hear yourself through your cab is one thing - but from an audience point of view, I would have thought that in a lot of typical gig venues without PA support, bass is going to be be fairly well heard (assuming you have enough power) because it's omnidirectional.

It so isn't. I stand by my comment.

[quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1494935227' post='3299695'] Thanks. Bass direct have them at £40 so I've gone for a set of Lo Riders from them [/quote] Enjoy!

Err... but they are all valid points. A 410 was released after BF stated ad nauseam that it was a flawed design and something that they wouldn't be interested in producing. Please inform me what Alex has done that has been revolutionary in cab design? Presumably he holds the corresponding patents too? Hmmm....

Err... I don't know if you have seen this page or not - http://barefacedbass.com/technical-information/12XN550.htm - but I think it would be hard to disagree that the whole underlying message is that the 12" in Barefaced cabs are deemed to be superior to those found in other "boutique" bass cabs... or is it just me that is receiving that message? When you are making bold claims like that, it is inevitable that discussions like this will take place... if people don't like it, maybe a forum isn't the best place for them to hang out! There's no ad hominem it, if the claims are there, people will seek to validate them, especially when the cabs in questions are directly compared to some of the best selling cabs on the market. There is a lot of he said / she said... but it would seem the case with this particular brand, nobody can talk freely about them without being at the mercy of the fanboys. There's been plentiful of discussion about many brands and their claims... yet this one brand seems to be a contentious subject. As it stands, I'm not too interested on the polar response of a cab (although I am still reading with interest - especially if a full range analysis of the FR800 can be done as opposed to just the woofer) - I'm more interested in how FRFR a cab that is marketed as a FRFR cab is... and how well it performs at volume, in a gigging situation - isn't that what the initial OP was trying to get at too? I don't think, handle joke aside - which let's face it, is a bit of an ongoing forum joke, I've said anything that is out to upset - I'm looking at the graphs - and the information, to gleam what I can about the product, just as I would with any other product. I feel sometimes that people on here are far too sensitive over gear at times.

Good, to be fair, I think that the claim that the BF 12 is superior to other 12s was the purpose of the graphs. I think the tyre argument doesn't quite work either, I think we are talking more about the engines!

[quote name='DaytonaRik' timestamp='1494928376' post='3299590'] I was a very early adopter of wireless IEMs but after many years of generic silicon earpieces and lately Shure SE215 IEMS, I've decided to take the plunge and go for a set of 64 Audio A3 custom fitted IEMs. Paul at Custom IEM has been excellent with his comms etc and confirmed that the A3 will suit my needs very well - I tend to have a very balanced mix, almost like an engineer's FoH mix with the bass and my lead vocals just pushed forward a touch. Now I just have to arrange for an impression and then a 3-4 week wait once I place the order [/quote] Good work - I think you will notice a huge improvement in the fit and performance over the 215s. The 64s are lovely - exceptionally well made - I bought a pair of triples for my gf for the gym (she couldn't find anything to stay in here ears), she can't get enough of them.

Although, in the spirit of the thread, this is the graph that we should be looking at -

For FRFR, this is the graph that we should be interested in. I think it's clear to see the DSP is having some influence on keeping the response pretty flat. Again, would be interested to see how the FR800 compares.

Back to the thread title - the OP was looking for comment on FRFR and off axis response came up - so, as a comparison, here are the vendor supplied charts (ideally Stevie should do the measurements to keep things on the level) for the 745. You are looking at the 3rd dotted line down from the top - circa -3db attenuation at 10k off axis is pretty good in my book... but again, use your ears and all that. I'd like to see the chart for the FR800 (including the HF horn) to see how it compares.

It was a joke. You know, a joke.

That diagram looks just short of two... what happened? A handle fall off?