LawrenceH

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1323165782' post='1459888'] I think we need a bit more info before we get bogged down with a gazillion confusingly different ideas... like, does this beginner have any musical or playing experience at all (might explain the overly high budget)? [/quote] Listen to this! 'Best' instrument is going to depend on style of music, tonal and playing goals. Even though some basses are very versatile there is no one-size-fits-all.

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1323046449' post='1458746'] crushing the life out of a track to less than 5dB of dynamic range as a part of the mastering process just destroys the musicality and power. [/quote] I agree with all this and was trying to make a similar point...but also it's worth recognising that the process is reflexive ie people including musicians will adapt and respond to these trends in (bad) mastering which has additional impact. Getting their instrument heard in a mix that's been thrashed to within an inch of its life [i]or, playing in bands that are consciously or unconsciously emulating that 'fashionable' sound[/i] is a challenge that deliberately introducing additional harmonic distortion helps them to meet. Of course, this then makes the overall mix even more busy and fatiguing and it becomes like an arms race, getting even more difficult to give each instrument its own space in the mix. Also, I absolutely don't buy the argument that flat, accurate monitors are undesirable for real hifi. I think that's a myth, built partly on misunderstanding arising from incomplete measurement information for certain 'flat' speakers. Except, if material is mixed to sound good on ipod headphones or cheap consumer docking stations then it probably isn't going to sound that great on speakers actually capable of reproducing real detail.

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1323013730' post='1458264'] IMO if it was possible to build a completely flat amplification system most of us would find the sound produced dull and bland. It's those "good" distortions that make our music sound pleasing. [/quote] Pprobably true, but the distortion through decent studio reference equipment or even good hifi gear is a lot lower than what you get through a sansamp etc. You'd be fairly disappointed in your hifi if reproduced speech sounded no less coloured than through a Trace Elliot combo

[quote name='eddiehoffmann' timestamp='1323020145' post='1458361'] I have a QSC PLX1602, which also can have each channel running at 2 ohms simultaneously. You don't necessarily have to use both channels, though. If your cabinet(s) have a total resistance of 2 ohms, you can power them through channel A, for example, and have channel B turned all the way down. [/quote] It's probably better for reliability in the long-term to run 2 channels at 4 ohms rather than a single channel at 2 - look how the distortion spec differs for the PLX series at 2 ohms versus 4. As above, the parallel switching config makes this a doddle.

Does bass guitar have a natural sound? I'd say yes to an extent...a pickup is an inherent part of the instrument, and how it's loaded electrically in terms of impedance has a big effect on the frequency response of the pickup. But. Distortions introduced in the preamp and afterwards don't just alter frequency balance, they add in extra harmonics that weren't present in the original signal from the string/pickup system. In that sense they are unnatural, and the more distortion that's introduced the more 'processed' it's all going to sound. I think there's too much distortion in modern sounds, perhaps as a result of trying to cut through a mix where all the other instruments have also been compressed/clip limited. Everyone's slightly distorted and all those extra harmonics are competing.

I remember that when I switched the jumpers in an F1 from US version to UK, there was some discussion about whether I should go for 240 or 230 V settings, and this led on to how variable the mains supply voltage can be. Is it possible that this problem could relate to, or be exacerbated by, mains supply issues?

I play fingerstyle, quite hard with the odd bit of pop/slap, and my black beauties on one bass are about 2 years old and still going. They're worn to silver at the backs at the fret points and somewhat worn where I pluck the strings but that's really not at all visible unless you're staring from close up - more importantly they still sound less dead than eg a set of Rotos/Slinkys etc of an equivalent age/playing time.

I do think a lot of the so-called 'valve-y' characteristics that some modern amps like the Terror make sound very over-processed (and the Sansamp type pedals), and I struggle to think of any bands I've seen who actually have such a heavily coloured sound in practice - basschat seems like a different world! I really love the sound of high quality studio valve pre-amps, which to me sound a world away, just 'the same sound but better and more responsive'. I also don't like cabs that colour the sound too much with respect to EQ curves, or smear the low-mid time domain info. However I think I do quite like the sound of cone break-up from a high quality driver, as well as the gentler end of the distortion introduced by exceeding xmax on a well-designed bass speaker.

[quote name='fatback' timestamp='1322763158' post='1455625'] Thanks, Bill. The cab on stand is chest height, so not so far off 5 feet. Do you lose midbass at lesser elevations? Unfortunately, I don't see using the notch filter as very practical in the kind of situations we play in most often, ie tiny stages and no soundcheck; just stand up and play. I'll certainly look for that resonating frequency of the bass, as Alex described, but I can't see the speaker on the floor close behind the bass body ever being other than a problem. Luckily, the cab on stand approach is workable, as long as I don't need to get much louder, as I'd reach the amp's limits (with one cab) pretty quickly. [/quote] If you used a notch filter that was centred on the resonance of the bass body that would stay pretty constant so you wouldn't need to adjust for each soundcheck, as Alex says. Behringer used to do a cheap little DSP device called a Shark, I think they probably still do, that has an adjustable notch filter with variable Q (filter width). With something like that you could work out the problem frequency at a practice/at home and just leave it in your signal chain, bypassed if you liked until needed. To understand boundary effects it's important to recognise that there are two potential aspects - reinforcement and cancellation. The former is due to the boundary effectively acting to constrain the directions in which waves can propagate. The latter is due to reflections from the boundary coming back out of phase and cancelling out the wave from the listener's persective. A cab 5 feet from a boundary will have a primary cancellation around 55Hz-ish, this frequency will be raised as the cab gets closer to the boundary. Raising a cab up high has the effects of both lowering the frequency below which boundary reinforcement occurs, and introducing cancellations, each of which will reduce output. Bear in mind also, that the double bass's output is probably not that low frequency so both midbass cancellations and loss of boundary loading could each be contributing. Walls also count as boundaries.

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1322667856' post='1454201'] You've misunderstood what I meant about "harmonically pleasing" [/quote] Probably then, since the scale length constantly changes, what is 'harmonically pleasing' more often than not will depend a certain amount on the keys and neck positions a player tends to use most often. However a complicating factor is that although scale length changes with fretting, string thickness and tension for a given string stays the same. So the harmonic character of a string with solo neck pickup [i]doesn't[/i] sound the same to our ears as the same string fretted further up through the bridge pickup, because not everything has been scaled proportionately. That suggests that absolute placement will have a defining character whatever the key, notably at the extremes. However, a cm here or there on a [i]solo[/i]'ed pickup especially as you get closer to the neck is going to make very little audible difference over the effect of key choice (which is pretty marginal in a semitone range as long as it doesn't force changes of position).

[quote name='thumperbob 2002' timestamp='1322664386' post='1454134'] by putting everything into the pa you will have more control and will sound better. [/quote] I wouldn't say that it will sound better necessarily if everyone is mic'ed up. It places huge demand on the PA, and it has to be up to the task or sound quality suffers. Similarly the mix is much more complicated as you now have to balance backline noise against a load of mics, all open and with potential for feedback and phase issues. You're now talking about getting a dedicated sound engineer involved or at the very least getting pretty tech-savvy yourself. There's merit to keeping it simple for small/medium gigs - less complication means less to go wrong. FWIW I also don't think there's much between the SRM450s and the Yamaha passives that I've used in the past, in fact if anything the Yamahas have had the edge for vocals. Adding subs and an active crossover will make more of a difference if you go the full band route, or a decent pair of 3-way top speakers.

[quote name='geoffbyrne' timestamp='1322525064' post='1452277'] I mean, where does that leave my son, having done 5 years at music college & come out with an LRAM & later a BMus? I suppose he'd better just saved all my cash & got a couple of turntables, then? [/quote] Depends if he'd then practiced them through his childhood, got up to a decent standard and then spent 5 years REALLY practicing, like you do at music college! He'd be pretty good then I reckon, probably make a very tidy living (not that I've noticed orchestral musicians doing badly, quite the opposite in fact). Lots of late nights though...

[quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1322582493' post='1453094'] But that doesn't mean you have to get a Behringer desk. Spirit, Mackie, Yamaha, Studiomaster etc. etc. all do little club mixers. Don't forget though if you need reverb and its not included in the desk you'll also need outboard. [/quote] I have to say, I own plenty of cheap and cheerful Behringer stuff so I'm not snobbish about it...but I've had desks by all those brands, and I must say the Yamaha has sounded sweetest, closer to say Allen and Heath (a proper 'mid-level' desk) than a Behringer. Oh yes, I definitely agree about keeping the bass out of the PA.

Until you prang the speaker cone with a mic stand or something then it's fine

[quote name='fatback' timestamp='1322574550' post='1452848'] I use one Midget on a stand for my upright (to avoid feedback), but seem to lose a good deal of low end volume that way. Wondering if a second Midget in front of me would give me the extra oomph I feel I need. But would that cause any kind of phase problem? Haven't a clue about these things, so your thoughts much appreciated. Amp is an EA Doubler 550. [/quote] Separating bass speakers is generally a bad idea...witness the classic 'corridor of bass' when bands use the one-sub-a-side setup for PA - gives a very uneven, location-dependent response. For controlling feedback without losing low-end you may be better off using something like a gramma pad that keeps the speaker low down, and/or putting the pin on something that provides similar isolation. Mechanical coupling to the floor is different to acoustic coupling obtained by being close to a surface. This will only work if firstly it is not mechanical coupling that is giving you the low end (tends to be 'boomy' and centred on a particular frequency) and secondly if the sheer volume of the low-end isn't what's causing the feedback. In that case you may have reached the inherent limitations of double bass and need to look into notch filters or foam inserts on the bass itself, I seem to remember Clarky had a thread discussing this?

[quote name='Walker' timestamp='1322553115' post='1452358'] Yes, this does look like the route we are going to go down now, just a bit of persauding to be done Although we are going to pick up a small 2nd mixer to submix while we raise the £££'s for a new Yam powered desk. Thanks everyone for your input (boom boom). Chris [/quote] If you're after something cheap and 4 mic inputs is enough, this looks a good price [url="http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Yamaha-MG10-2-Mixer-Excellent-Condition-/250941065971?pt=UK_Mixers&hash=item3a6d40caf3"]http://www.ebay.co.u...=item3a6d40caf3[/url] I have one and I'd say it's decent.

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1322519197' post='1452153'] Where did this spring from. It's a 3 year old thread! [/quote] Haha! I'm always surprised people like this as a song, everything about the vocal is so spectacularly dull.

[quote name='KimKG' timestamp='1322468791' post='1451033'] I'm curious, why is this a bad plan? Is the 1x15 more likely to blow in this situation? Kim [/quote] Mainly because you're asking a single motor pushing a surface area of about 850cm2 to keep up with 4 motors pushing a total of nearly 1400cm2. The 15 will probably have higher excursion capability so net volume of air capable of being moved (Vd) will be less unequal than these numbers would suggest, but thermal power handling is likely to be greater with the 4x10. If you're playing at real cooking volume you might even fry the 15 without really noticing. Having said that a better quality/higher power 15" in the OP's situation would probably handle it. There is another issue which is whether the cabs are well-matched in terms of output phase alignment, which means using two identical cabs is often preferable if you want to ensure low-end output is uniformly louder compared to a single cab.

If the cabs don't have a crossover it might be worth trying one, or even just disconnecting the piezo altogether. Because I could fairly easily, I'd try an active crossover/bi-amp set up just to see what effect that had - would that be an option? If the piezos are operating too close to their resonance apparently this can make them sound pretty nasty, having said that I've never heard one I actually liked...

[quote name='soopercrip' timestamp='1322422803' post='1450720'] This is a link to alocal Hull based aluminium supplier I used to trade with. [url="http://www.eltheringtongroup.co.uk/"]http://www.eltheringtongroup.co.uk/[/url] Dont know if they stock the punched grille stuff your looking for, but they have always been helpful and might point you where to go. These are another local ali company but never used them, again they might know a source. [url="http://www.aalco.co.uk/"]http://www.aalco.co.uk/[/url] [/quote] Cheers Andy, much appreciated! I will check these options out

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1322403470' post='1450370'] What complexity? All we do is feed the drum mics into the little mixer, balance everything on that and set up EQ - we then feed that signal into the main desk on a single channel that we just leave set flat. [/quote] I concur, it's not really much extra bother carrying a multiway socket and two cables. But a better mixer is, well, better, so it really depends on the relative costs and the likelihood of further expansion in future. I don't like powered mixers because of this problem of effectively tying you into buying a new amp if you decide to upgrade in future, but for portability they are hard to beat. I do find an extra small-format mixer is a pretty useful item to have in any case, so the relatively small cost of a new mixer is not a total waste if you upgrade later.

This is going to be a bit of a slow build thread, since I can't get started til Christmas, but here are some box sims from WinISD comparing the performance of a pair of NTR10s (blue) to a pair of Deltalite 10s and a single 3012HO or 3012LF all in the same overall box volume, tuned to 52Hz. Note that excursion charts are plotted for 500 watts input which the 8 ohm single drivers wouldn't see and it exceeds their thermal limits in any case. Similarly max spl chart ignores the fact that I couldn't put more than 300w into the 12" drivers with my F1. [attachment=94046:maxspl.JPG] [attachment=94047:cone-ex.JPG] [attachment=94048:transferfunc.JPG]

I have been intending to do this for ages, but up here in Edinburgh I don't have suitable tools or space. However I'm off to the parents' for Christmas so will finally get a chance to build these - a pair of ultra-portable 1x10" speaker cabinets to go with my nice and light Markbass F1 head. A lot of the basic design decisions have been made, but further input from the helpful people on here will be very gratefully received, particularly in relation to finish, internal acoustic lining and hardware. (Disclaimer!) the design brief is fairly specific to my needs, and I'm hoping the end result will suit ME better than excellent commercial offerings from eg Barefaced and EAD on here. I'm in no way trying to rival their products as I have neither the knowledge nor resources! Driver choice: Rather than follow the sensible herd and build a design based around Eminence drivers (despite having 4 deltalite II 10s kicking around!) I have gone for the Celestion NTR2520D which I picked up at the very reasonable new price of £160 for a pair. Am I mad, or just stupid?! Hopefully neither, since I've bought them already...but why? - First, all else being equal I prefer two 1x10s to a single 1x12. There is a minor advantage in terms of single driver dispersion characteristics but far more importantly, although two together will weigh more than a single 1x12, quite often I won't need more than one - especially for rehearsals which I typically reach by bike! Plus at the light weight we're talking about, it's actually form factor that will make more of a difference to me and two smaller boxes are preferable. - Second, performance. Based on spec a pair of the Celestions will at least equal the Eminence 3012HO in the low-end and in my specific set-up should slightly better it, since I'll get the full 500 watts out of the F1 running at 4 ohms versus 300 at 8 (and this still won't exceed thermal rating). In fact there is no real advantage for me to be gained by going to a 3012LF plus separate mid, which with the crossover would incur a significant weight and price penalty (though sound very smooth). The Celestions have a nominal Xmax of 4mm BUT as mentioned in other threads, this is based on the traditional conservative calculated method rather than measured. More importantly to me, Celestion have confirmed that Xmech is an impressive 13mm with suspension braking kicking in at 10mm (very audible farting-out). This compares favourably to other 10" drivers (Xmech on the Deltalite II 2510s is 8mm). In the absence of Klippel distortion measurements (which according to B&C are rather ambiguous anyway) I'm going with a practical Xmax of 6mm for my sims, using (Hc-Hg)/2 + Hg/4 as Alex suggests on his site. In any case it's a bass cab, not a hi-fi . The other main advantage to the Celestion is that it should give a rather more balanced frequency response, many of the Eminence drivers tend to have quite an extreme on-axis peak between 2 and 3k. This can give a nice voicing to a bass guitar but it depends what you're after and how it interacts with the pickup resonance peaks of a particular bass. I'd rather get the voicing from the choice of bass/pickups and EQ if necessary. The Celestions extend up to about 5k on-axis and lack that big spike. This is why I've chosen the 2520D over the 2520E, which trades upper-end sensitivity for a longer voicecoil (and hence greater Xmax). If I were to build with a tweeter I'd consider using a decent waveguide-mounted comp driver crossed low with steep filters, at 2k or so, and then I'd use the 2520Es, but for weight and cost I'm going for a 1-driver solution. A quick note, there are other 10" drivers out there from the likes of Ciare, Faital and B&C that look very capable but they are generally more expensive and significantly heavier, with the performance benefits irrelevant when powering them with a single 500 watt amp. Cab size and tuning: I'm playing 4-string jazzes and always use standard tunings so I really don't care about performance below 42Hz (string thump aside). Cab tuning tends to be a trade-off in terms of mid-bass versus low bass volume and excursion. The lower you tune, the more excursion and less volume around that important first harmonic (80-100Hz), which on a jazz is typically stronger than the fundamental. In a small box as well, too low a tuning requires very long ports to get sufficient area. Playing around I've gone for ~35 litres tuned between 50 and 55 Hz. This models well with the Celestion and avoids that exaggerated hump around 100-120 that you typically see on small cabs that are designed to sound 'deep' at low volume, which I personally don't like. The size is a good balance between bass-response, portability and excursion capability giving ~55Hz @ -3dB and 42 @ -10dB. It's no fEarful but it should have some decent poke. Construction: I've found a supplier for poplar ply at a better price than I've seen elsewhere, which might be useful to anyone else contemplating a build [url="http://www.timberdepots.com/index.php"]http://www.timberdepots.com/index.php[/url] For some reason I was actually charged less than list by the very helpful guy in the Saltash branch, and 2 full sheets of their quality 12mm poplar are now sitting in my dad's garage which should cover a few more builds after this! To save the good stuff I will probably build a prototype using nasty B&Q ply. This'll be good to test bracing schemes if nothing else! I want to use a shelf port to take advantage of the extra bracing, and benefit from the reduced length typically required compared to tube ports, but it does make calculating the length required a bit more complicated. I'm also currently thinking I'll go against convention and convenience and mount the driver from behind the baffle. Not without disadvantages but I have my reasons... Finishing and hardware: This is where I'm most unsure. I've used a UK-sourced Duratex-alike substance before and been less than impressed, perhaps there's a knack to applying it. I got a quote from a local company that spray polyurea for lining horse boxes etc (line-x type stuff) but for just two boxes as a one-off they'd charge £100 (it gets much cheaper for more cabs) and from what I understand the added weight is actually quite significant. I think this is probably the finish David Perry uses for his EAD cabs and it's incredibly tough stuff, but I'm not sure I want to spend that much only to add nearly a kilo to each cab. Currently I'm wondering about carpet or vinyl for either a retro look or something a bit more 'unique'. I'd also like to incorporate a tilt function and am undecided as to the best way of implementing this, but more on that closer to the time. Finally, I'm not sure on grille material. High void % aluminium is probably the best option for weight v strength but I can't find a UK supplier.

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1322395605' post='1450201'] If you sub-mix, you loose individual control of that signal...and therefore you only have collective control on the sub group. Some might allow EQ on that group but some might just allow just gain. [/quote] Not necessarily an issue if you're sub-mixing with another desk that replicates those controls though - it just mimics a grouped desk module which on a lot of gigs you might do anyway. If I'm using something like a GL3300 with group options and mixing a larger band, I'd often group vox as a stereo pair for convenience.