Phil Starr

All speaker design is a matter of compromise. Mass is one of the factors that affects the resonance of a panel but only one. Adding mass to a composite will alter it's properties and most plastics used in moulded cabs are loaded with fillers. Stiffness is important too but again not the only factor I have a hi fi cab at home made of lead. Lead certainly isn't stiff but is inherently self damping and lead panels really don't ring when you tap them. Contrary to popular opinion even Trace never used lead in their cabs If you look at historic hi fi designs you will see that not much hasn't been tried out at some time. So the best material is not really something you can give a straight answer to. For portable PA weight is a real issue even for big touring rigs where you have teams of people to shift and set up the gear. Portable means it has to be tough and preferably repairable it also has to sound good. Poplar ply is lightweight but fairly soft compared with other hardwood ply. MDF is stiffer, more uniform, self-damping is good and as a man made product it is possible to optimise it for speakers, but it is dense and doesn't cope with water too well so it doesn't get used for portable PA gear too often. So how light does a cab need to be? I'm a fit 70 year old and can still comfortably carry a 23 kg load a short distance. I wouldn't want to lift a 23 kg speaker above head height though. I can carry a 10kg speaker several hundred metres but I'd rather not and it will feel a lot heavier by the time I get there. Anything much more than that and weight becomes an issue I tend to grab a 10" speaker for rehearsals over my 12 because it's 2kg heavier. I applaud Barefaced and others that have re-thought bass cabs but I've also felt the paels of GR Bass and Barefaced and yes they still have resonances that you can feel and hear. I've also felt quite a few old poorly braced 3/4" chipboard cabs with less panel resonance. A lot of that is down to detailed design. Maybe I should stop touching up speaker cabs though, I'll get a reputation 😂

Possibly because I build more prototypes than finished cabs I deliberately cut my holes slightly loose and use a gasket to seal them (gaffer tape usually) Once I have a finished size I seal it with whatever sealant is in my mastic gun. So far nothing has ever moved but a tight fit would be better. I'm saying this because I want people to know that there is always a solution and it makes it easier to start a build knowing any minor errors are soon sorted

That does look lovely and I'm sure lot's of people are going to pinch the luggage handle idea. I do love a successful build. How about a bit of a review when you've gigged it a few times. I'm interested in how you get on with the 4" tweeter

I've been one of the chief stirrers on this issue, I want to emphasize that I don't think Markbass are any less reliable than other brands. My amp broke because I dropped it and had previously been 100% I can't blame Markbass for that. The issue are the contractual arrangements between Real Electronics and Markbass. Real have been given a monopoly for after care by Markbass who then take no further responsibility and apparently no further supervision. No circuit diagrams or parts supply are made available to third party repairers so you have to accept the terms that are offered or go to hell. I can see the advantage to Real in having a monopoly and Markbass in being able to forget about any amp past the guarantee period. I imagine Real pay Markbass for the monopoly just as car dealers pay to become main dealers but have no information on this. All the disadvantages pass on to the customers and extra profits go the the companies. Ironically I've hd no trouble in getting parts from Music Tribe (Behringer) or Wharfedale via their UK distributors in the past so poor support from Markbass looks extremely shabby. Our only comeback is not to buy from companies that don't support their products.

As a serial builder you'll know the joy of self building is that you can adapt the design. I stick with drainpipe because it is going to remain available for a very long time and because as @tauzero says you can buy a cheap holesaw to cut the port. Cutting small holes is much trickier than cutting the larger radius holes if you are using a router or a jigsaw so the holesaw with just a drill is the 'easy build' solution. A bigger port would be nice with this cab but a 10cm port just won't fit, I did consider a slot port but it increases the complexity of the woodwork. As it happens a 75mm port is in the Goldilocks region for this cab and I'd already calculated for it 12.5cm is the length that port is just too short but changing the tuning by using it as it is wouldn't change the response by much. I wouln't be concerned if you used the port as it is and you could add the extra length by finding something to slide over the end of the tube if you care to improvise. I've a small stock of cardboard packing tubes I keep for this but I've seen people use tin cans and all sorts. I've also moulded whole ports out of papier-mache.

I'm a commited listener to other people's PA's and serial offender of industrial espionage Sometimes I even listen to the band! I'd have thought your PA (at leaast as far as speakers) was a similar price, The 712's are quite a bit cheaper than your EVOX8's and the Behringer subs aren't expensive. Your set up might be more expensive even if it was the EVOX8's rather than J8's. In a way it's not a bad test of two different strategies when buying the basic PA. There's too many variables to be sure but the vocals could be down to the mics you used, eq or even just that your singer is better. The most important thing in any PA though is the fleshy bit that operates it. If it was down to the speakers it could be because the stick systems do vocals pretty well, they typically crossover at 200Hz so no crossover distortion in the vocal range and those little 3" drivers cover the vocal range best of all. The 712's would be crossed over probably higher than 2kHz so a lot of the vocals would be coming out of the mid/bass driver and 12's aren't a great starting place for vocals. The 735 and 745 would be much better with lower crossover points but really are much more expensive. Interesting though, I do like the vocal quality through the EVOX speakers.

You'd probably expect the SRM450's to be louder. I think the original models used RCF drivers and all other things being equal you'd get more volume from a 12 than a 10. My memory of the SRM450's is that they were slighly bright sounding wheras the ART310s are very neutral. I mainly use mine as stage monitors where a flat response helps keep feedback down. Remember too that the 310's are the base model in the range and now discontinued apart from a batch that Thomann are selling off at a good price. The ART 710's and ART 910's are slightly more sensitive (louder) and probably better sounding, but I haven't tried them. The QSC 10 would be worth a look too but is slightly pricey. Adding a sub to any speaker lets you push it harder as well as improvingthe bass response. You shared some video of your band with me that I enjoyed, I don't think you are looking for out and out power and you might get on well with a couple of decent 10's and it does reduce the carrying in and setting up to use appropriate speakers. The vocal quality of the RCF 310's is great and they do acoustic instruments well. They are also reliable and hold their value well. If you are looking for a compact system at a good price they are well worth thinking about. I don't think I'd use mine with a loud drummer for a full on rock band in a bigger venue. Up to 100 people with your style of music I'd say you'd be OK and they are a damn sight easier to get onto the poles than the ART745's

The post on p6 (just a few posts above) was obviously just a screenshot but I've now added a link to the PDF. I put the link to the PDF on p1 because that is where most people are likely to find it first of all unless they have been following this thread for a while. I'm not doing the drawings but so long as you can make out the dimensions that's what I'll use for the prototypes and I think it's as well to wait until all the gremlins have been discovered before making too many changes. Poor @Bassybert will be doing this as a full time job otherwise Changing that dimension crossed my mind when I drew up a cutting list, I might do it when I actually get the table saw fired up. All our other designs have been built measured and tested before publishing but I''ve made a lot of people wait too long for this so I decided to publish a 'beta' version so you could get on with a build if you want to.

Hi all, we have our drawings, many thanks to @Bassybert for drawing them up and @SamIAm for checking them, any mistakes are mine (hoping there aren't any of course) I've swapped out the origianl hand sketch at the top of this thread and there is a link to download the drawings in PDF

That’s awful but don’t give up hope. My son’s finger was 95% severed but the tip healed. He actually had two fingernails at one point. Now you wouldn’t know that anything happened. Coincidentally Sat night I gigged without my middle finger. I sliced the knuckle with a carving knife. It was ok, a couple of runs had to be dropped and more hand shifts than usual but it wasn’t too bad. If I’d had a chance to practice it would have been better. You still have all your sense of rhythm and musicality and your knowledge. You’ll be playing bass for a long time yet.

They got tipped in the end 😀 too soon?

Sounds like heaven. The EAD looks like a nice piece of kit. I love practicality.

Three gigs is just greedy Since I bought my RCF 745 mk4's a couple of years ago I haven't needed anything else and the consistency of our sound is magic. Moving from floor monitors to in-ears has added the final part to the picture. I have subs but rarely 'need' them. I suspect your's is a more professional band than our weekend warriors and we don't really play much other than pubs and clubs. You don't mention the rest of your system (neither did I, but it is in earlier posts). I guess the big question is which mixer you use?

Another Saturday another gig. Same band with our regular singer but a dep drummer. Fortunately he rocked up to the rehearsal with an electronic kit and was pleasantly surprised to find he didn't have to bring the DW kit to the gig. Just as well as there wouldn't have been space. The pub is made up of small rooms and there wasn't a lot of space. It's pretty small too. Given the lack of space I decided to try swapping out the RCF745's for RCF ART 310's, last weeks monitors. Dep drummer was happy to use in-ears and even had his own wireless connection. I say try because we had plenty of time to sound check for once and I was concerned that asking them to do all the drum sound and my bass might be a stretch. I needn't have worried out in the audience area soundchecking the first thing anyone said was 'drums sound great, bass needs to go down. Don't you love it when a musician from another band is 'helpful'. He was right though The only extra task for me was sorting the monitor mix for the dep. We played halfway through the first song before we realised the PA was muted. Not one of the band had noticed. The in-ear sound is that good and can be as trouser flapping as you like. I played the second song with no in ears so I could walk out to listen to FOH. We were getting a lot of bass on stage but FOH was crystal and pretty much what was in my headphones so all was well apart from an unfortunate resonance on stage. I added a bit of extra HPF to the vocal mics just in case and fingered the bar itself as a source of the reverb so turned down the speaker on that side a little and the one opposite up a touch and the problem disappeared. Really pleased with the ART 310's. I use them all the time with the duo but this was first time without subs with the full band and the sound level was limited by feedback problems and not at all by distortion or lack of volume. I was concerned by how they would do without subs but needn't have worried. It was a small room but people were dancing in the next room as well so the sound was filling the pub. So @Al Krow asked if you could gig with anything smaller than 12" tops and put everything though. IME that night I'd say you can, even without a sub.

I'm in three bands. All covers. The two four piece bands do notionally 2x1hr sets. That's what it says in our correspondance and advertising. In practice that is 14-15 songs a set and set 2 is longer. My duo play 35-40 songs probably 75 mins a set.

This raises so many issues. A sax isn't exactly quiet so if you weren't hearing much sax how loud was your on-stage sound and who was making all the noise? Did they park you next to a drummer? Were they using the Bose set up with the PA acting as both monitor and FOH? It doesn't work for anything louder than an acoustic act. It's not worth it for three numbers!!! Wellu set it up at rehearsal and remember the settings. Do it properly once and then repeat every time. It's only one connection to make to the Sennheiser ffs. The biggest issue though is the monitoring. My take is that monitoring is more important than the FOH even for the audience who won't hear it. FOH can only amplify what is being played, if you are hesitant in what you play because you can't hear the rest of the band you can't be tight. If you aren't getting a good version of your own sound then you aren't making all those tiny adjustments that make for a polished performance. I usually run the PA. but if I play with an unknown band I'll carry my own monitors, in ears for preference and i've got a little mixer and a DI/splitter so I can mix my own signal with whatever signal they are sending me. I've even taken a signal direct from the FOH speakers. If it's a professional hire company running sound I also set up a back line amp which is on but turned right down until I know the monitor mix is OK. Most sound engineers are great but when you are low down the pecking order as a band you can get someone else's monitor mix or none at all and playing when you cant hear anything at all is not something I ever want to do again. There are a few tried and tested ways you could use your in-ears without direct connection to the mixer if you are interested.

Curb your GAS maybe? Just at a technicla level moving from 500W to 750 will only give you less than 2db more sound. 1db is the minimum change you'd notice in an A/B comparison and 3db would only just give you a noticeably rise in level that anyone would notice. You'd need to double your amp power to do that. Assuming that the two ABM's have basically the same sound paying out good money to get a change nobody will notice doesn't seem worthwhile. They (all manufacturers, not just Ashdown) only sell these amps because people want the biggest amp in the series and will pay for a number. If everyone else is selling an 800W amp then so do Ashdown or they lose sales. Even the headroom argument doesn't really hold, you'll only get less than 2db of that. If you prefer the sound of an RM over an ABM that's a different matter but you'll need to try them next to each other to decide that.

Ha, I'd be the oldest person there but it looks like a whole lot of fun. I was a DJ in the 70's and still have around 6,000 singles stacked away somewhere. I'll have to look out for Discos-for-wrinklies

Disco's for grown ups that sounds like fun. It hasn't hit round here in the boondocks yet. Didn't know it was a thing. Is the East Midlands doing it's own version of Northern Soul but with 45's LFSys have though, I have a Monaco. You will love the Monza

I've had a sneak preview of the drawings, just coming along nicely. One more drawing to do

Set lists are a bug bear of most bands. It always seems to end up being behind band fall outs and politics. I'm a bit of a set list nazi if the band let me get away with it if I'm honest. I used to be a DJ in the days of vinyl 45's and the whole show was really about creating an atmosphere in the room with the choice of songs. I was also a schoolteacher so manipulating a group of people into doing something they didn't want to do and getting them to enjoy it was a bit of a career choice Left to my own devices entertaining the room is what I want to do. I'll play pretty much anything that will create an audience reaction, Mustang Sally, Seven Nation Army, Summer69, Sweet Caroline are all grist to the mill even if I personally hate the songs. However I think the best bands have an identity and that is reflected in the music and the set they put together. I probably wouldn't go to see a general covers band other than as research but I'll quite enjoy and seek out pretty much any genre band. I'd never listen to country at home but a couple of Modern Country/ Americana bands I've seen recently have been a joy. @Happy Jack is right too, if the singer can't sing it why are you even considering it? You can't put a capo on a singer. Why would you do a keyboard song if you have no keyboard or eff up a 7/8 song if your drummer is strictly four to the floor. If you have a great Sax player why wouldn't you look for great sax songs. However you've got a band leader, a nice guy who works hard and crucially gets the gigs. Maybe he's formed the band just to play that set list and that's why he works so hard at it. I've joined existing bands and just accepted their set list and that's a different joy. You turn up plug in and play, somebody else does all the work it's bloody wonderful while it lasts. Then someone starts lobbying to change the set list and the band leader accepts a few changes but loses heart as their project falls apart and tensions increase when two or more people form a clique and suddenly it's all over, the magic is gone. I'd be looking carefully to see where this band is going, presumably you accepted that set list when you joined, this is never going to be a reggae band or play hip hop. If you really wnat to play an entirelydifferent set then look for another band. I love a democracy but if one person is doing all the work then they get to make most of the decisions. You guys need to talk maybe but be careful not to kill the goose that lays all the golden eggs.

Well Blue Aran finally delivered my speakers, if you order from them and anything is marked out of stock then cancel that item. They held on to my order until everything was in, literally for months. Anyway here now and I've sent the revised drawings to @Bassybert who will turn them into something presentable and double check everything. I'll start making sawdust once I have the drawings back.

I feel that too and if I was mixing for someone else then I'd go straight for a 'proper' desk but when you have a 30min set up in a busy pub and no sound engineer a tablet out in front for your 3 min soundcheck and then mounted on your mic stand is a godsend. I love having a sound engineer. Covid was such anawful time for any independant but as we came out of it we knew a couple who just needed any work and for a few gigs had one who was happy to work for a share of the band's fees. He sorted my in-ears and suddenly the rest of the band wanted them and I played so much better without having the PA to worry about. FOH was just glorious , enough for the audience to notice. The tech helps but the fleshy bit between the ears is what counts, and the ears themselves of course. Mine are shot to hell unfortunately.

A couple of years ago we tested the BAM/Gnome/Elf against each other. We ran frequency responses and had a look inside. They aren't all the same and each has it's own voicing, they sound different but the power output is the same suggesting they use similar components in the power amp. I now use the Gnome for most gigs and rehearsals through a 1x10 and it is plenty for on-stage monitoring and small gigs. The BAM is it's equal as is the Elf. I'm a bit surprised at the farty tones unless you were really loud and I've never looked at a Harley Benton but the three above all have really high gain so turning up the input gain would lead to clipping in the pre amp and pass horrid distortion to the output stages. Try turning the master volume up full in the HB and your bass down and see if that helps. If not then either the HB is faulty or 100/180W isn't enough for what you need.

+1 and definitely used. My feeling is that pretty quickly you'll want to move to a digital mixer and it will become redundant, buy used and you can get all/most of your money back out. You'll also need a parametric equaliser for your vocal problems, something like this https://www.thomann.de/gb/midas_parametric_equaliser_512_v2.htm which might be more difficult to find used. I'd also in your position have a quick calculation about what a digital mixer would cost versus the used value of your mixer +graphic+channel strip. I know that you are concerned about the complexity and learning curve of a new mixer but you don't have to use all the bells and whistles, you can keep it simple. Most of them present a really simple on-screen mixer that will be simpler than a physical mixer with most of the complexity accessible with two taps of clearly labelled buttons and with logical layouts. For me the exception is the Behringer/Midas that looks more like a DAW but even that won't be beyond you. Honestly the questions you ask and your methodical nature show you are way beyond most of the people in charge of a PA. You can try the control software of most digital mixers before buying too. Have a look at teh A&H CQ ramge and I quite like the Mackie DL16 in terms of ease of use. There's an RCF M18 used for £400 om FB Marketplace too, they are discontinued but that's what I use https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1009372180703532/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3Aa5ccd843-10af-482d-b114-5e29b98cd676