honza992

Hi All

I thought I'd do a thread about an (almost) completely Tru-oil finished guitar.  I've gone through lots of different finishing options that aren't nitro - waterbased, oils, wax varnishes etc, with varying degrees of success.  This one though, is definitely a success, and it;s also one you can do with absolutely no equipment, other than a bottle of tru oil, some sandpaper and opposing thumbs....I know there are lots of builders who can't spray for whatever reason (neighbours, the spouse, exploding extraction etc) so I think in the right circumstances Tru oil is a good option. 

I should point out that much of my success with using Tru oil comes from our very own @Andyjr1515 who was kind enough to share his knowledge and techniques with me.  Mine are largely based on his. 

I thought I'd show you all a guitar I've just finished for a friend.  He wanted a Springsteen inspired tele.  Not a copy, just something in that ball park. 

So I made this....

The pictures in all honesty don't really do it justice.  It's still at the workshop at the moment, but if I have time over the weekend I'll bring it home to take some shots in natural light, that's when the oil finish really comes alive. 

I'll go through the process in some detail, so bear with me......

Lovely job,beautiful work. 

I've just weighed all the parts and I think final weight will be about 3.4kg (7.5lb). Perfect. 

I'm deep into the neck carve at the moment.  

This time I'm doing it slightly different to my normal method.  Only slightly differently, mind, and if you look away you;ll not notice.  But, this time I have cut my facets only as far as the start of the transitions like this....(rather than trying to cut facets through the transitions, if you see what I mean). 

And I sanded the bulk of the neck to 90% of the finished shape before starting work on the transitions.  It's worked out really well.  Having the neck virtually finished meant I could 'feel' the transitions more clearly somehow.  I should finish the carve tomorrow and I'll post some pictures....

On 01/10/2018 at 21:54, songofthewind said:

Great work! I'm enjoying this thread very much. Not the pain and suffering part, obviously..

Ha ha, yes the pain and suffering is definitely a feature of guitar building.  In fact, the more my skills grow the more I realise that guitar building is, like tennis, mostly about avoiding unforced errors.  The lapse in concentration, the inexplicable routing using a template that's upside down, drilling too deep, or too shallow, or not at all, not checking fret slot depth etc etx.....  I've done them all.  Several times.   New swear words have been invented.  The occasional infantile tantrum.  

But as @SpondonBassed says, it's inevitable and you just have to rely on your skills or improvisation!

On 02/10/2018 at 09:17, Andyjr1515 said:

There's a lot going on in this post!

Very precise stuff going on in the neck routing. I confess that my approach is much more haphazard than that 

The body shaping has transformed it.  Looks great

 On earlier threads for the pickguard, I'm still not entirely sure how you got the flush mdf template reduced to the final size.  I'll have to read it again.  Also, how did you manage to route the actual pickguard without it melting?  Like you mention, there's a lot of work involved with pickguards...

I haven't actually routed the pickguard itself yet, I won't do that till the last minute.  The one's I've done before though have been no problem, no melting, though I do turn the router down to a slower speed.

On 28/09/2018 at 16:16, Andyjr1515 said:

With my varnish method - which is a bit of a compromise due to lack of facilities, knowledge and skills - I get to the point where I have to say 'OK - Stop there...that's close enough'.  The reason is that, too often, if I 'just give it one last coat' it invariably makes things a lot worse rather than making what is basically OK into something a bit closer to perfect.

And for this - especially as it is a bitsa build for my own use - I've got to the 'OK - Stop there...that's close enough!'

Having no spray facilities or equipment, I basically wipe or brush the finishes.  Anyway, here is the body prior to fully hardening and final polishing:

It doesn't bear very close examination but, for the overall look, it looks OK at the cursory level.

The next bit is probably only of interest to those who commented about their own trails and tribulations of finishing  

I promised I would run through some of the finishing trials and tribulations.  I'll split that into 4 aspects: top vs back&sides; prep vs finish coat.

AS ALWAYS, THIS IS JUST HOW I DO IT, NOT HOW IT SHOULD BE DONE!   

Preparation (post finish-sanding):

Back and sides: I use tru-oil slurry and wipe to seal and grain-fill all in one go.  Works a treat, even filling the horrendous tear-out I had at the back.  Couple of sessions morning, left to dry between each, then sand the following day and it's usually ready to take the gloss.

Top:  Tru-oil would do the job used just like for the back and sides above, but for spruce and maple it does tend to give a reddish hue and so, certainly for an acoustic top, I don't use that method.  Last acoustic, I used an old classical guitar method of egg white.  Yes - standard egg white, brushed on, left to dry, sanded off.  Maybe repeat, but basically then ready to varnish.  Didn't do that this time...and wish I had.  What I did try was Chestnut Melamine.  Very stinky.  Tough and no discolouration beyond the darkening of the dampened spruce.  But I couldn't sand it down without it becoming a little patchy (probably not enough coats) so basically sanded it off the surface and used that which has soaked in just as a sanding sealer.  NEXT TIME - I'm going to use egg white again.  In retrospect, it did the job perfectly well.

Finish Varnish:

 Here, my big restriction is that I do not have the facilities to spray and therefore I am restricted to wipe-on or brush-on finish techniques.  Those of you who have followed previous threads will know that my preferred finish for a full-gloss is good old Ronseal Hardglaze Polyurethane Varnish. 

I used to do this exclusively wipe-on but since Ronseal did a formulation change to lower the volatiles, I've found that thinning the varnish anywhere near what I would do for wipe-on gives major problems and that less thinning and using an artist's fan brush is the best alternative:

 

Method is simple:

I thin the varnish down with about 5% white spirits (this is WAY different to my wipe-on with the original Ronseal formula which could take up to 50% thinning!)

I brush it on - not stopping and ensuring each strip is merged into the previous one (that will already be stiffening), laying off gently with the brush at each strip to even out any ripples or air bubbles

After drying, I use micro-web (1800 to 4000 ish) used wet and then recoat once totally dry and cleaned with a good quality tack cloth (I use a microfibre cloth designed for cleaning windows)

Now - the trouble is with the new Ronseal formulation is that for subsequent coats, the varnish has more adhesion to itself than it does to the previous dried coat of varnish.  This means that it parts, like the Red Sea parted for Moses, leaving what looks like deep brush marks!  (I have a photo somewhere I'll try to find).  The answer is, of course, to sand and give it a key.  But then the 'final' coat shows the dull patches of the sanded substrate (even with 2000+ grit).  So you do another coat without sanding.  Then it creeps again. Etc Etc Etc

And then every now and again, it is almost OK.

And that's where I STOP.  Which is where I started this post 

I keep meaning to contact Ronseal - they MUST have other people that have the same issue!  And it is 2018.  To echo @honza992 's earlier comment - can it really be THAT difficult to make gloss varnish that can be applied successfully and works?

 

But why, I hear you ask, does Andyjr1515 use old fashioned Ronseal polyurethane gloss rather than a modern water-based varnish anyway?

 

Well - this is Ronseal Hardglaze:

And this is the exact same wood, prepared in the exact same way...but finished with one of the better water-based gloss varnishes, Osmo Polyx Gloss:

 

It's nice enough - but it ain't the same!

 

Thanks Andy, really really useful info.  I've heard of eggwhites being used before but only ever on accoustic guitars.  Very interesting.  Yet another technique for me to try at some point!

13 hours ago, Jabba_the_gut said:

I just looked for these files and found loads more here:

https://www.workshopheaven.com/hand-tools/rasps-and-files/iwasaki-japanese-carving-files.html

Oh sh_t😲 I didn't realise there were so many. And all so.... beautiful 🙄. 

That's great @Jabba_the_gut. Yeah, really thanks for that. Like I need more tool GAS....

😎

Hi All

I'm just starting the neck carve on my current build, and I noticed that the tools I use has completely changed over my last few builds. 

I started using rasps and files, mostly a dragon file sold (at great expense😲) by Stewmac.

Recently, though, I've started using one of these, an iwasaki carvers file. 

It was actually the first file I ever owned, bought on the recommendation of some random poster on some random guitar forum.  I remember being singularly unimpressed when I tried to use it, too unpreditable and niggly to use, and it sank down onto the bottom shelf.  

For this build I dug it out to give it another go, and my god it rocks.  It's not like using a file where you file harder to take off more,  in any direction, any speed.  This needs a much more subtle touch.  The angle you use it, the pressure you apply and the direction of the grain all make a huge difference to the effect it has.  It can go from taking off massive amounts of wood with little effort, to almost burnishing a completely smooth finish.  It really is a remarkable tool.  And while not cheap at £20, it's a joy to use.  I use the facet method of neck carving, and previously I've always used a spokeshave to smooth down each facet before moving onto the next one.  With the Iwasaki there's really no point.  It leaves a surfacce plenty smooth enough.  It does though, need a careful touch.  If you apply too much pressure at the wrong time it can dig in but if you're careful it really does a great job in a very rewarding way. 

I just thought I would share!

I'd love to hear what anyone else uses, and what method you use.  If you don't use the facet method what do you do?

Into the grunt work. 

I re-did the frets.  Cursing as I went 🙄.  Though to be fair, all went smoothly.  I then filed them level with the edge of the neck, then added the bevel, taking it down slightly into the binding so there isn't too sharp an edge.  

I then did the neck taper, going from 20mm at the first to 22mm at the 12th.  Slim, but not too slim.  

It's then on to the neck carve.  I use the facet method, which makes for a lovely photo!

Oh, and the body needs sanding.  Lots and lots of sanding.  But is at least looking more or less bass shaped. 

Sounds strange, but in some ways I think making the pickguard is the most difficult thing about building an electric.  Unlike wood, plastic is completely unforgiving, and there's something about it that means you really have to be accurate for it to look good.  It has to follow exactly the curve of the body, fit exactly round the neck pocket and have exact placement of the pickups and control plate.  I've finally got a process that I'm pretty happy with,  but it's taken me a long time to develop it, and it still takes a long time to do. 

Of course, if you're doing a standard size P or J bass then you can simply pick one off the shelf, or use a pre-made template like I've got in the first photo.  Everything I do is custom size, so no such luxury for me.

First up I do a drawing on some baking parchment (one of the most useful things in the 'shop).  I use this to rough cut some 12mm mdf to size. 

Next I rout the pickup hole into it.  At this point the rest of the pickguard template is just rough cut. 

Having got the pickup rout done, I mount the pickups and make sure that I'm happy with their positioning.  Then without moving anything, I use a guided bit running along the edge of the body itself to do the lower horn (where the pickguard runs parallel with the body).  At the same time I also rout the neck pocket, using the pocket itself as a guide.  This means that the fit of the pickguard is perfect. 

I then use a guided router bit with different size bearings to rebate into the pickguard template along the lower horn.  This results in a template that is smaller than the lower horn, but runs parallel to it.  

Finally, I cut out the 'V' shape where the pickguard meets the control plate. 

And that's it!  Several hours work.  My last insurance policy is that I don't drill the holes for the control plate till after finishing and I'm fitting the plastic pickguard itself.  The positioning of the control plate has a couple of mm wiggle room, so if the thickness of the finish, or who knows what else has moved everthing by a mm or so, I can absorb that by moving the control plate slightly, and everthing still fits together perfectly.  

I told you it was the hardest bit of making a guitar!

Sometimes I really despair.  Last week when I was lying on my (2 yr old) daughters floor as she held my finger to go to sleep, I specifically remember thinking to myself, Honza don't forget to check that the fret slots are deep enough before you glue the binding and start fretting.  Well...I didn't, and they weren't.  Even more annoyingly (and for the first time ever, what was I thinking) I started fretting from the nut end rather than the heel end.  Which meant the first dozen or so went in perfectly before they started bottoming out.  So to cut a long story short I had to take them all out....

Pulled 'em out with this...

There was virtually no tearout, apart from one small chip near the end.  I used a feeler guage and some baking paper as a dam to stop the CA medium glue getting into the fret slot.  Ended up being virtually invisible. 

Then I deepened the slots using this teeny tiny saw. 

All in all it went pretty smoothly, but I wasn't expecting to have to do a re-fret quite so soon🙄.  I'm going to have a whiteboard surgically attached to my forehead so when I have these thoughts in the middle of the night, I don't immediately forget them in the excitement and impatience of building....

I've re-sanded the fretboard and it looks pretty good.  I just need to put on a few layers of finish then I can re-fret. 

But can someone please remind me to remember the things I have forgotten.  Thanks. 

Can't wait for the finishing de-brief 😀

It's amazing that man-on-the-moon is almost half a century old, but there's still no recognized method of sealing, protecting and enhancing the grain of a piece of wood.... Andy, you're doing great work. 

Guitar build.co.uk can do whatever you need. 

Edit: Ah, sorry do you mean you want a guitar shaped lump of wood? Or a finished guitar minus neck, knobs and control plate? If the first then guitarbuild are good, if the latter then ebay or gumtree is your friend. Buy a cheap bass body and most sellers will throw in the neck for free😉

😆

The body is now nearly finished.  The arm/belly contours are done.  I filled in the old pickup rout, and re-did it for a reverse P.  I spent ages cutting out paper control plates of different shapes (including the Sandberg style suggested by @songofthewind , which  look great) but just couldn't get anything I was happy with.  Because of it's location (nearer the bridge) there wasn't much contour to it, which meant it just ended up mostly looking like a not-very-happy penis.  And I'm not sure that's exactly the look I was after 😕.  So in the end I  simply decided to re-shape the body so that it followed the shape of the control plate, rather than the other way round.  I think it's ended up looking pretty good. 

I also did drilled the holes for the pickup and bridge ground wires.  Because the bass is going to be painted, the easiest way to do the bridge ground was just to drill through the side of the bass.  I don't have a bit anywhere long enough to drill all the way through from the bridge pocket.  One thing I forgot is that those long bits drop, so by the time it came out into the control cavity it was worryingly near the bottom.  Luckily there were  a few mm to spare, and I may fill the bottom with a bit of epoxy just to make sure it remains strong enough. 

Tomorrow, fretting and doing the roundovers on the body.....
 

1 hour ago, Andyjr1515 said:

Back to blocks - I had a gig practice with Pete last night and noticed the MoP blocks on the SG-ish I built for him a few years ago:

Well - I've never noticed it before, but the block on the first fret is quite a different colour to the rest:

You don't really see it in this photo but in normal daylight it is quite blue, whereas the rest are whiter.    And now I look at it in the photo - look at the three swifts!  The larger one is different to the other two - all cut from the same 40mmx40mm piece of shell.

Pete's never noticed and wouldn't worry if he did.  And I never noticed until last night - and I've seen this guitar up close at least 200 times, let alone when I was building it!!!

 

Oh my oh my oh my.  That's some lovely shiny shimmering lovelyness right there!

(And I'm leaving my MOP as is.  Actually I designed it that way from the beginning.....😁)

I think I agree with @Jimothey

I use a router with a guided bit, which more or less does exactly what a CNC does.  If you think about it, that bearing is a primitive CNC!  It reproduces a shape with only minimal intervention from me.  I think the difference in mechanisation at this point is one of degrees.  I don't use CNC because I build for the (non financial) reward it gives me.  So I'm not sure using CNC would help that much. 

I think the key is customisation and developing a customer experience that goes beyond simply walking into a shop and picking something off the shelf.  A custom builder has the opportunity to work with the client to build something that is designed for them, but also something where they have helped chose the wood, the binding, the finish etc etc .  That's my goal anyway. But there's no way I would ever be able to do that to pay a mortgage.....Not when competing with CNC. 

I think everyone here builds without CNC. Though admittedly not commercially. I don't think it's possible to earn a living making guitars without using CNC. 

I'd like to take a look, though I'm a builder more than a player, and by the looks of it your skills are already up there. But I would give an honest opinion re build, fit, finish etc. 

I'm in Nottingham. 

21 hours ago, Jabba_the_gut said:

Been doing some sanding on the body - there's some really nice grain and flame appearing. Still hoping to get this in a playable state for the SE Bass Bash but it's going to be tight!

Just need to sand the body, finish the body, shape the neck, do the inlay, fit the frets, fit the electronics etc etc...….!!! And I'm ignoring the kitchen that has been wrecked by a leak, has the flooring up, drier and dehumidifier installed, will need all the units to be removed, new floor fitted, kitchen re-installed, new flooring across the whole downstairs. That can wait - must get the build finished first for the bash!!!!

Ho...ly....cow...

Your sanding is amazing.  Really outstanding. Awe-inspiring.  Curves...light and dark woods....that's hard to get clean lines.  But you get it looking like it has been forged in bass heaven.  No stray sanding dust, beautiful sparkly clean lines.....You are literally killing me😲

Any tips for us mere mortals?

More of an issue is this....

All the blocks are white, apart from the one at the fifth fret (block 3) which is blue.  What the...?!%@%!  I didn't notice before because they were only rough sanded, but once glued in and starting to sand it was obvious that it didn't match at all.  This is the first time I've used MOP and as a natural material I'm sure there is some variation in hue, but that is ....well, a bit much.  Very disappointing. I guess I have two options:

1. Grab my router, and zap that little bugger.  Hope I can get it out relatively neatly and re-rout the channel. Get the retailer to send me one that is the correct colour, re-glue, re-radius and put it all down to experience. 

2.  Relax.  It is at least at fret 5, so I can pretend that it's a design feature.  And no one will notice apart from me anyway. 

Anyone with any opinions?

(Oh and also I'll email the supplier and ask whether that blue is in fact within the accepted range of 'white'....🙄)

A quick update on the neck. 

The blocks are in, glued and the neck radiused.  It's.....ok.  Not great, but for a first effort it's acceptable (the fill around the blocks is a bit too obvious for my liking), but I learned loads and next time it will be one hell of a lot better. A quick shot hiding the imperfections...

Next time I will do the gluing a little bit better, because I think the way I did it this time contributed to a slightly sloppy job.  This time I used epoxy and sanding dust to glue the blocks in, and in my head I had imagined the epoxy oozing up around the block, filling the gaps around it at the same time as gluing.  And that is what happened, at least to begin with.  What happened next though, was that the expoxy then sank down again, I think as the blocks rose up a little bit.  So next time I will divide the gluing and the filling into two completely seperate stages.  First I will glue the blocks in with a small amount of medium CA glue, using only enough to cover the bottom of the channel but no more.  Then, once dry I'll use either epoxy or medium CA glue with sanding dust to do the gap fill. Oh, and the other thing I need to work on is my chisel technique, both use and sharpening☹️  But all in all, ok for a first effort. 

Here's a couple of mine.....

(Edit: Mods, am I alowed to post my own?  If not, please delete!😁)

1 minute ago, SpondonBassed said:

If you can get it to Spondon and back I can do it for you quite easily.  PM me if it's of any use.

Wow, that's an incredibly kind officer and a gentlemen. You're but a mere hop skip and jump away.  I may very well be getting back to you....Thanks again. 

So, I'm guessing you don't all love the idea then😋

I guess part of my issue (apart from being lazy🙄) is that I have no metal working tools at all - files, drill bits, countersinks, saws etc etc.  I'm reluctant to spend yet more money on tools.....no, hold on, who am I kidding.  I'm reluctant to spend money on clothes, or the bus....I'm joyful to spend money on tools 😀......though on my tool wish list, metal working tools come below woodworking.....

I'll have another think....