honza992

Andy, sorry I've only just caught up on this but have read from first till last in one sitting, enthralled (really, I don't get out much🙄)

This is really a great technical build, lots of creative problem solving and an end result that looks amazing.  You really couldn't ask for more in a build thread.  

Eggnog all round. 😀

Deja vu:

Colour coat is done, and clear is on-going.  Maybe another 3 coats then I'll let it sit over xmas before attacking it with sandpaper & buffing.  General Finishes say cure time is 21 days for the High Performance.  We'll see......

Hmm...I was hoping my next post was going to be of finishing photos....Instead it's this:

I managed to sand through the white so it is back to square one. 

Ironically the colour coat sprayed on pretty easily.  It's the top coat that I'm finding really, really (did I say really?) frustrating.  I'm spraying water based General Finishes High Performance with an HVLP turbine and I just can't get any sort of consistency.  One coat will go on pretty well, and the next will look like the surface of the moon.  Same gun, same conditions (always warm and not too humid), same product, same pressure, same amount of thinning.....

Anyway, the body is more or less sanded back and I'll be ready to start doing the colour coat again.  

On 12/11/2018 at 19:40, honza992 said:

Finally, an update. 

The neck is finished, tru-oil slurried and currently waiting overnight for the water slide decal to dry before sparying some poly over the top of the logo to bury it.  Tomorrow, hopefully. 

The body is mid-finish.  I brushed on a few coats coats of General Finishes High Performance to act as a sanding sealer - providing a flat surface for the colour - which will be a (hopefully) beautiful creamy white.  I'm using 1/3 Antique White and 2/3 Snow White, both (fake) milk paints from General Finishes.  They're basically just a low gloss acrylic (no lactose involved) paint, but they spray nicely and are completely compatible with the High Performance, which I'll also use as the top coat.  I spray using an HVLP turbine, but I turn the pressure down really really low.  Being an HVLP I don't have a pressure guage, but my guess it's only running at 1/3 or so of it's capacity - basically just enough to 'flop' the paint out of the gun in big gobs and onto the surface - it'll flatten itself nicely as the water evapourates.  I've found that increasing the air flow simply fills the air with clouds of vapourised paint that bounces off the surface, but doesn't improve the quality at all, but does make me nervous about what i'm breathing in, even with a full mask. 

Here are a couple of coats:

The colour coat is done and although it's gone on  well, there is a little bit of uneveness - not exactly orange peel, but a bit of roughness.   I'm gong to be spraying clear over the top, and I'm pretty sure I'll be able to level sand at the end of the process, no problem.  But I'm not 100% sure whether I need to have the colour coat absolutely smooth or not.   Is it like burying a water slide decal, whereby as long as you put enough clear on top and then sand it level, the edges disappear?  Or does the white have to be absolutely flat first?  Any advice?  @Christine and @dadagoboi if you happen to be passing this way, I'd really appreciate a pointer......or any other fine colour finishers out there....the white is really really hard, so I shall only sand if I really need to!

Thanks a bunch. 

On 12/11/2018 at 01:59, dadagoboi said:

 

Speaking of relics, here I am playing my '55 in 1974.

Wow, what happened to the '55?

Oh and I meant to ask, is the grey primer only used for the CAR, or is a grey (as opposed to white) primer always used with pearl effect finishes?

Thanks for posting this, really interested to see how you do your finishing.  I've been following your progress elsewhere for a while, your results are outstanding.  I really love your holistic approach to design, your instruments have a coherence that is rare to find.  Really great work.  

So am I right that the process is:

1.  Solid grey primer

2. Clear coats with gold pearl mixed in

3. Clear coats with candy apple (in your case made up using Bloodshot and Mile High candy)

So the only solid 'colour', is the grey primer. The rest of the colour is provided by the candies mixed in with the clear coats?

Can't wait to see the end result. 

Finally, an update. 

The neck is finished, tru-oil slurried and currently waiting overnight for the water slide decal to dry before sparying some poly over the top of the logo to bury it.  Tomorrow, hopefully. 

The body is mid-finish.  I brushed on a few coats coats of General Finishes High Performance to act as a sanding sealer - providing a flat surface for the colour - which will be a (hopefully) beautiful creamy white.  I'm using 1/3 Antique White and 2/3 Snow White, both (fake) milk paints from General Finishes.  They're basically just a low gloss acrylic (no lactose involved) paint, but they spray nicely and are completely compatible with the High Performance, which I'll also use as the top coat.  I spray using an HVLP turbine, but I turn the pressure down really really low.  Being an HVLP I don't have a pressure guage, but my guess it's only running at 1/3 or so of it's capacity - basically just enough to 'flop' the paint out of the gun in big gobs and onto the surface - it'll flatten itself nicely as the water evapourates.  I've found that increasing the air flow simply fills the air with clouds of vapourised paint that bounces off the surface, but doesn't improve the quality at all, but does make me nervous about what i'm breathing in, even with a full mask. 

Here are a couple of coats:

My methdodology for the neck was roughly the same as the body.  Here's a completely rubbish photo:

Necks are really hard to photo, but the tru oil finish came out really really nicely.  It has a great clarity to the finish and gives enough colour to really warm it up with a nice amber tone, but without going over the top.  I hate those necks that look like they've been covered in fake tan.  The finish is very very smooth but with none of the 'squeakyness' that you get with gloss finishes which I hate.  I think this may well now be my go-to neck finish.  It's really hard to fault. 

The process was as follows:

1.  Sand to 400. 

2.  Two seal coats, 24 hours apart, wiped on with cotton rag. 

3.  Slurry sanding using either wet/dry paper or Abralon pads (I had a mixture of grits), sanding with the grain.  Wiping off really carefully with kitchen paper. Grits were 400, 600, 800 & 1000, 24 hrs apart.  The last couple of grits you have to be really careful to wipe off the excess pretty quickly (no more than a few minutes max) and make sure you get all of it off, or you'll get ridges that are impossbile to sand away with the higher grits. 

And that was it.  Because maple is closed grain wood, the whole process is much much quicker than the body as no grain fill was necessary. 

For my logo I waited 7 days for the Tru Oil to be really dry then I applied a water-slide decal - I get mine from Rothko & Frost, they are really expensive but worth it.  The paper they use is very thin and can be buried in many fewer coats than previously when I've used decals I've printed myself on paper bought off t'internet.  Once the logo was on, I waited overnight for it to dry then sprayed 4 coats of General Finishes High Performance top coat, which is a water based polyurethane.  GFHP works really well being sprayed over Tru Oil (in the past I've finished entire necks in this way).  I think I did them all in one day, then the next day I lightly dry- sanded with 1000 and then 1500 Abralon.  I taped off round the face of the headstock, so the join (ie where the polyurethane started) was right on the roundover.  Because GFHP is crystal clear, it's really hard to tell that the face of the headstock isn't finished in exactly the same way as the rest of the neck.  Again, this is now my standard finishing procedure for headstocks & logos. 

As you can see, the finish is consistent with the rest of the neck, and no lines at all round the edge of the logo:

Finally, a quick word about the fretboard, which was a lovely piece of pau ferro:

I've started doing all of my fretboard finishing before fretting.  Trying to do anything once the frets are in is really really hard, almost impossible to get a consistent finish.  So for this one I sanded to 1000 before fretting, then applied 3 coats of Liberon Finishing Oil, just wiping on with a rag, once per day.  I used this rather than Tru Oil mostly because it's a lot thinner, which allows it to sink down really easily into the quite open grain.  It's a lovely combination of browns, reds and oranges that is brought to life by an oil finish. 

And that's it.  A Tru Oil guitar, apart from the fretboard done with Liberon Finishing Oil, and a polyurethan clear top coat to hide the logo. Job done. 

21 hours ago, Andyjr1515 said:

That finish looks just as you describe it - LUSH.

Great job and excellent detailed run through.  There's a few tips in there I'll certainly be trying on my next finish job  

7 minutes ago, BassTool said:

Absolutely stunning! 😎

He he thanks very much😁

Finally I manage to update this thread.  Albeit I'm going to cut it into a few different posts. I'll cover the body first, then the neck in another post. 

I took the guitar home and took a couple of photos in natural light coming in through the window.  By some bizarre, never-to-be-repeated, quirk of fate, Nottingham wasn't grey and overcast. This is what the Tru Oil finish looks like in natural light, really nice colour and chatoyance:

I would describe the finish as being a high satin, or very low gloss.  I'm sure it could be polished to a much higher gloss, but it's not the look I was after.  It's 90% grain filled, meaning it feels incredibly smooth and shiny, but has a tiny bit of texture to it.  It's lush!  I could have gone for a complete grain fill...but again, not the look I was after.  There's definitely a time and a place for a dipped-in-glass type high-gloss finish (Mmmm....sadowsky), but not when I was asked to create a Bruce Springsteen inspired guitar.  Anyway, here's the lustre:

Here's my finishing schedule. 

1.  Sand to 400, 600 on the end grain.  Obviously, sanding is critical.  All scratches have to be gone otherwise they get amplified by the oil.  The end grain is always difficult, especially on baseball-bat ash (which this was).  Wetting the body with a sponge helps identify scratches (and raises the grain prior to finishing) as does going outside into natural light where the scratches are easier to see.  

2.  Seal the wood.  I applied two coats of Tru Oil using a cotton rag.  There's no science to this bit.  Squirt some oil on the rag or the guitar then rub it in.  I wiped off any excess after 5 minutes.  I did this twice, 24 hours apart. 

3.  Grain fill using the slurry method.  Using wet/dry paper on the back of a sanding block (a bit of scrap MDF) I sanded with the grain using Tru Oil as the lubricant.  I know other people sand in circles (including the chap who made the video above, and his results look great) but that just makes me nervous - I don't ever like sanding other than with the grain.  The idea is that the sanding dust/slurry gets trapped in the grain.  I found that sanding with the grain, then using my finger to 'swirl' the slurry around worked well, and there was no danger of visible sanding scratches (which is the danger when using a circular motion).  I found the best way was to divide the body up into sections and move from one section to the next (the top for example I would divide into 4), rather than trying to do the whole thing in one go.  You then want to wipe across the grain to get rid of the excess.  You do want to make sure you wipe off all the excess, otherwise you find that you end up with ridges or streaks, which can then be hard to sand away when you move up to the finer grits.  If you are anythnig like me you'll find it a pretty messy business - always dripping down the sides, or onto the top you've just wiped, and onto your work surface which then get's smudged onto you newly wiped guitar top etc etc.  None of which is a problem, just wipe.  I wiped off with standard kitchen paper.  Keep lots and lots to hand.  I repeated this process twice, both times using 400 wet/dry and seperated by 24 hrs.  I found that his filled the grain to a bout 90%, which was the look I was after.  A third time would probably have been enough to get the grain completely filled, if you were wanting a completely smooth surface on which to build a high gloss finish. I found the slurry was very happy to stay in the grain, wiping with the kitchen paper took the oil off the surface but leaving the grain nicely filled. 

3.  Smoothing.  I find it usefull to seperate in my head the process of grain fill, and sanding smooth.  The process is much the same as above - using wet/dry paper on a sanding block, sanding with the grain then throroughly wiping off the excess.  I did the following grits:

600, 800, 1000, 1200, 1500, 2000. 

It was really at 1500 where there was a sudden change in lustre, from what I would call satin to a low gloss.  The great thing about tru oil is that you really just keep going until either your arms fall off, or you've got the appearance you want.  It is quite a physical process - from 800 and above I would vigorously rub off the excess oil (again, in the direction of the grain), pressing hard to generate a tiny bit of heat.  I did only one grit per day, but I'm told doing 2 per day is no problem. 

Another thing I tried was using Mirka Abralon sanding pads rather than wet/dry paper.  It worked really well, and was definitely less messy as the oil gets absorved into the foam of the pad.  It did, though, use a lot more oil.  I'm not sure the effect was any different though, both worked just as well. 

I left it at that, ie my last coast was sanded with 2000 grit.  For a higher gloss (without buffing) I understand you can just apply a very thin coat with a cotton rag as your final coat.  I didin't as I liked the finish as it was. 

4.  Waiting.......I wait at least a week before putting the guitar together.  I think Tru Oil takes that long to harden sufficiently. 

Overall, I'm very happy with how it turned out.  Using Tru Oil on ash is not an easy option.  Then again, ash is never an easy option whatever the finish you're using, the grain is just so open.  But if you don't want to spray then it's a finish you can apply on the kitchen table.  Just make sure that you have wiped away every trace of oil at the end of each session or you'll have to go back down the grits to get out the ridges.  

I'll go through the process for the neck tomorrow.  

Cheers all. 

And thanks very much to @Andyjr1515 for his help and advice re Tru Oil (amongst many other things!)

https://www.guitarbuild.co.uk/collections/bass-bodies/pb-body+swamp-ash?sort_by=

(no affiliation, but I have bought from them before)

17 hours ago, EMG456 said:

Mr C has been busy as ever in the workshop and has just sent me this pic of the neck/ fingerboard. 

Side/ top partial fretlines and position dots are in some kind of metal alloy and look great to my eyes. You can also see the 5 piece laminate of maple/ wenge that the neck is made from at the "headstock" which of course will be disappearing as this bass will be headless.

I wish I knew how to cut those partial fretlines.  They look great and dont detract from the beauty of the ebony in the way that full fretlines might.  Anyone know what the technique is?

Sorry, I thought I was actually going to post something about how to you know, apply tru oil. 

Unfortunately my worst nightmare has come true. My wife is ill..... For the father of a 2 year old they are the four most frightening words in the English language. And at the weekend when nursery is closed. I may not make it till Monday..... 

23 minutes ago, Jabba_the_gut said:

You started it!! Now look what you've made me buy....

Ha Ha ha! Brilliant. I should be on commission. 

Post your thoughts here as to whether you like it. 

For me it's the neck transitions when it really shines. 

1 hour ago, Andyjr1515 said:

As always, I learnt the technique from someone else and then just passed on the same technique to @honza992  I seem to remember the original guy did a video and quite a detailed description - I'll see if I can find it.

Was it this one? 

There's no doubt he gets a great result, though tru oil is a lot easier on closed grain wood like walnut than it is on ash. Having said that the back of his also looks great, and it does look like Ash. Either he's done an outstanding job of grainfill (in which case I'd love to know how) or the back is a really nice piece of alder. Either way, it looks great. 

Hi All

I thought I'd do a thread about an (almost) completely Tru-oil finished guitar.  I've gone through lots of different finishing options that aren't nitro - waterbased, oils, wax varnishes etc, with varying degrees of success.  This one though, is definitely a success, and it;s also one you can do with absolutely no equipment, other than a bottle of tru oil, some sandpaper and opposing thumbs....I know there are lots of builders who can't spray for whatever reason (neighbours, the spouse, exploding extraction etc) so I think in the right circumstances Tru oil is a good option. 

I should point out that much of my success with using Tru oil comes from our very own @Andyjr1515 who was kind enough to share his knowledge and techniques with me.  Mine are largely based on his. 

I thought I'd show you all a guitar I've just finished for a friend.  He wanted a Springsteen inspired tele.  Not a copy, just something in that ball park. 

So I made this....

The pictures in all honesty don't really do it justice.  It's still at the workshop at the moment, but if I have time over the weekend I'll bring it home to take some shots in natural light, that's when the oil finish really comes alive. 

I'll go through the process in some detail, so bear with me......

Lovely job,beautiful work. 

I've just weighed all the parts and I think final weight will be about 3.4kg (7.5lb). Perfect. 

I'm deep into the neck carve at the moment.  

This time I'm doing it slightly different to my normal method.  Only slightly differently, mind, and if you look away you;ll not notice.  But, this time I have cut my facets only as far as the start of the transitions like this....(rather than trying to cut facets through the transitions, if you see what I mean). 

And I sanded the bulk of the neck to 90% of the finished shape before starting work on the transitions.  It's worked out really well.  Having the neck virtually finished meant I could 'feel' the transitions more clearly somehow.  I should finish the carve tomorrow and I'll post some pictures....

On 01/10/2018 at 21:54, songofthewind said:

Great work! I'm enjoying this thread very much. Not the pain and suffering part, obviously..

Ha ha, yes the pain and suffering is definitely a feature of guitar building.  In fact, the more my skills grow the more I realise that guitar building is, like tennis, mostly about avoiding unforced errors.  The lapse in concentration, the inexplicable routing using a template that's upside down, drilling too deep, or too shallow, or not at all, not checking fret slot depth etc etx.....  I've done them all.  Several times.   New swear words have been invented.  The occasional infantile tantrum.  

But as @SpondonBassed says, it's inevitable and you just have to rely on your skills or improvisation!

On 02/10/2018 at 09:17, Andyjr1515 said:

There's a lot going on in this post!

Very precise stuff going on in the neck routing. I confess that my approach is much more haphazard than that 

The body shaping has transformed it.  Looks great

 On earlier threads for the pickguard, I'm still not entirely sure how you got the flush mdf template reduced to the final size.  I'll have to read it again.  Also, how did you manage to route the actual pickguard without it melting?  Like you mention, there's a lot of work involved with pickguards...

I haven't actually routed the pickguard itself yet, I won't do that till the last minute.  The one's I've done before though have been no problem, no melting, though I do turn the router down to a slower speed.

On 28/09/2018 at 16:16, Andyjr1515 said:

With my varnish method - which is a bit of a compromise due to lack of facilities, knowledge and skills - I get to the point where I have to say 'OK - Stop there...that's close enough'.  The reason is that, too often, if I 'just give it one last coat' it invariably makes things a lot worse rather than making what is basically OK into something a bit closer to perfect.

And for this - especially as it is a bitsa build for my own use - I've got to the 'OK - Stop there...that's close enough!'

Having no spray facilities or equipment, I basically wipe or brush the finishes.  Anyway, here is the body prior to fully hardening and final polishing:

It doesn't bear very close examination but, for the overall look, it looks OK at the cursory level.

The next bit is probably only of interest to those who commented about their own trails and tribulations of finishing  

I promised I would run through some of the finishing trials and tribulations.  I'll split that into 4 aspects: top vs back&sides; prep vs finish coat.

AS ALWAYS, THIS IS JUST HOW I DO IT, NOT HOW IT SHOULD BE DONE!   

Preparation (post finish-sanding):

Back and sides: I use tru-oil slurry and wipe to seal and grain-fill all in one go.  Works a treat, even filling the horrendous tear-out I had at the back.  Couple of sessions morning, left to dry between each, then sand the following day and it's usually ready to take the gloss.

Top:  Tru-oil would do the job used just like for the back and sides above, but for spruce and maple it does tend to give a reddish hue and so, certainly for an acoustic top, I don't use that method.  Last acoustic, I used an old classical guitar method of egg white.  Yes - standard egg white, brushed on, left to dry, sanded off.  Maybe repeat, but basically then ready to varnish.  Didn't do that this time...and wish I had.  What I did try was Chestnut Melamine.  Very stinky.  Tough and no discolouration beyond the darkening of the dampened spruce.  But I couldn't sand it down without it becoming a little patchy (probably not enough coats) so basically sanded it off the surface and used that which has soaked in just as a sanding sealer.  NEXT TIME - I'm going to use egg white again.  In retrospect, it did the job perfectly well.

Finish Varnish:

 Here, my big restriction is that I do not have the facilities to spray and therefore I am restricted to wipe-on or brush-on finish techniques.  Those of you who have followed previous threads will know that my preferred finish for a full-gloss is good old Ronseal Hardglaze Polyurethane Varnish. 

I used to do this exclusively wipe-on but since Ronseal did a formulation change to lower the volatiles, I've found that thinning the varnish anywhere near what I would do for wipe-on gives major problems and that less thinning and using an artist's fan brush is the best alternative:

 

Method is simple:

I thin the varnish down with about 5% white spirits (this is WAY different to my wipe-on with the original Ronseal formula which could take up to 50% thinning!)

I brush it on - not stopping and ensuring each strip is merged into the previous one (that will already be stiffening), laying off gently with the brush at each strip to even out any ripples or air bubbles

After drying, I use micro-web (1800 to 4000 ish) used wet and then recoat once totally dry and cleaned with a good quality tack cloth (I use a microfibre cloth designed for cleaning windows)

Now - the trouble is with the new Ronseal formulation is that for subsequent coats, the varnish has more adhesion to itself than it does to the previous dried coat of varnish.  This means that it parts, like the Red Sea parted for Moses, leaving what looks like deep brush marks!  (I have a photo somewhere I'll try to find).  The answer is, of course, to sand and give it a key.  But then the 'final' coat shows the dull patches of the sanded substrate (even with 2000+ grit).  So you do another coat without sanding.  Then it creeps again. Etc Etc Etc

And then every now and again, it is almost OK.

And that's where I STOP.  Which is where I started this post 

I keep meaning to contact Ronseal - they MUST have other people that have the same issue!  And it is 2018.  To echo @honza992 's earlier comment - can it really be THAT difficult to make gloss varnish that can be applied successfully and works?

 

But why, I hear you ask, does Andyjr1515 use old fashioned Ronseal polyurethane gloss rather than a modern water-based varnish anyway?

 

Well - this is Ronseal Hardglaze:

And this is the exact same wood, prepared in the exact same way...but finished with one of the better water-based gloss varnishes, Osmo Polyx Gloss:

 

It's nice enough - but it ain't the same!

 

Thanks Andy, really really useful info.  I've heard of eggwhites being used before but only ever on accoustic guitars.  Very interesting.  Yet another technique for me to try at some point!

13 hours ago, Jabba_the_gut said:

I just looked for these files and found loads more here:

https://www.workshopheaven.com/hand-tools/rasps-and-files/iwasaki-japanese-carving-files.html

Oh sh_t😲 I didn't realise there were so many. And all so.... beautiful 🙄. 

That's great @Jabba_the_gut. Yeah, really thanks for that. Like I need more tool GAS....

😎

Hi All

I'm just starting the neck carve on my current build, and I noticed that the tools I use has completely changed over my last few builds. 

I started using rasps and files, mostly a dragon file sold (at great expense😲) by Stewmac.

Recently, though, I've started using one of these, an iwasaki carvers file. 

It was actually the first file I ever owned, bought on the recommendation of some random poster on some random guitar forum.  I remember being singularly unimpressed when I tried to use it, too unpreditable and niggly to use, and it sank down onto the bottom shelf.  

For this build I dug it out to give it another go, and my god it rocks.  It's not like using a file where you file harder to take off more,  in any direction, any speed.  This needs a much more subtle touch.  The angle you use it, the pressure you apply and the direction of the grain all make a huge difference to the effect it has.  It can go from taking off massive amounts of wood with little effort, to almost burnishing a completely smooth finish.  It really is a remarkable tool.  And while not cheap at £20, it's a joy to use.  I use the facet method of neck carving, and previously I've always used a spokeshave to smooth down each facet before moving onto the next one.  With the Iwasaki there's really no point.  It leaves a surfacce plenty smooth enough.  It does though, need a careful touch.  If you apply too much pressure at the wrong time it can dig in but if you're careful it really does a great job in a very rewarding way. 

I just thought I would share!

I'd love to hear what anyone else uses, and what method you use.  If you don't use the facet method what do you do?