JTUK

if you say so.

Have a look at the venue and bypass.... and then stick to decent volumes. Take some long extention leads. If that is not an option, then don't take the gig, IMO. Unless you are familiar with the parameters that set the trip off, then it could be a lottery. Also, the management might be wise to cable re-runs and not allow it.

You didn't upset me... I just think your approach is wrong in terms of what the OP is asking. Time and tempo is all important... I wasn't the one who was talking about kick drums and lock-ins exclusively, but I maintain, if you start on 90 bpm and deviate much more from that because it might suit the flow and concept I'd be thinking that time the keeping was awful. as in the groove isn't working, lets speed it up.. Why not get the groove in the first place unless the players aren't upto it...?? I think the OP coming back to this after this side-track is to his credit and also that there are standards to perform to even if your units don't. And to move this onto the reasons why, go to any recording thread and any click thread. I'd offer that most units would benefit in the long term playing to a click, but it is easy not to insist

[quote name='spike' timestamp='1331646587' post='1576469'] This mirrors my experience to a great extent. Many drummers I have played with are inconsistent with where they play the bass drum. I used to try and listen to the bass drum pattern so I could follow it only to find that it changed from bar to bar. .....................[/quote] Well, they shouldn't be. Putting it all over the place destroys any attempt of a groove. There is a world of difference to doing it on purpose and not knowing they are doing it..or being oblivious to it. Mostly, this is just plain poor drumming as is not being able to hold time.. and you should pull them up on it. Then at least you may get an explaination of what they are trying to do or achieve..which will, 9 times out orf 10, leads to blank looks ..as in..didn't know I was doing that...!!!

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1331637992' post='1576191'] I think, although not 100%, that the EBS Classic cabs are ceramic but engineered to be lighter, like these cabs. As much as I'd like one of the 1x12s id rather have a high end stack or the Aguilar DB112s. Weight, when it comes to 1x12s, isnt a massive issue. [/quote] I think you are right about ceramics...and the website I quoted from was less that clear about this...but would agree from reading it more carefully that EBS classic line is not NEO.

[quote name='Jazzneck' timestamp='1331641806' post='1576316'] Just seen this topic. Click track - can't do it and won't do it. Backing tracks - sh*te - refuse to use or work with them. Live music is live music and if you can't reproduce on stage what you do in the studio as live musicians with proper instruments, you are taking money under false pretences IMO. I await being dragged to the stocks........................ [/quote] off to the stocks you go then wait for the flaming

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1331641169' post='1576292'] This is simply not true is it. If it's done musically what's the problem? You sound like you are talking about inexperienced musicians who get lost easily. If you are, no worries I'll back off. [/quote] I have to say, the way you explain the set-up...it sounds a shambles and a guessimate. I am talking about the pattern going awol and you think that is ok....??? You can all go and get lost in the music..and then pull it all together when you want to get back in to the main pattern. Reading your posts, I think this would be a recipe for a disaster. but then I also get the impression that happy free-for-all train wreck suits the concept. If it happens, then ok...to be expected, if it doesn't, we have a chance of pulling of something really interesting...for the band..!! Why would I get lost in a track..? I am counting to a set pattern..I am not making things up as we go...and hoping it will be alright if we all wave and look out for each other. The way you seem to work...not sure you have a clue, tbh. which is ok if it works..upto a point. But when you have to put yourself into a mainstream situation, I doubt you'll have the tools and will be out of your depth pretty quickly....if you ignore or can't follow simple basics...or rules, if you prefer. Sorry if this offends...but jeeeeeeeeeezus..!!

You are then using the backing track to do the job a drummer would do. Your Kit singer might count the song in but this tempo is pre-determined and the drummer then takes over. It is going to be utterly pointelss to count in at 80bpm and then the drummer do something else. Kit might be the leader and take responsibilty for the count-in..but then that should be set in stone. AT post mortens, you can say that that song was too fast/slow or whatever, but the leader takes the flak for it. No problem, it is their deal...but it would be amateur hour if the drummer changed it mid-song. As for moving around within..fine..but you should all better know where the 1 should be or else you'll likely not hit that intro, so therefore you can get fancy with the pattern but not the time. or else..again amateur hour and a train wreck....or a LOT of visual cues.

My point was really related to the REM clip... there is no excuse for that, they should use additional players. People like Madonna and Britney can't sing a show anyway so they are going to fly in vox.. and if they do that then another few sequences is not going to matter.

I don't get people saying ignore the rules when the most basic rule is following decent time. You need to adhere to basic time because you are playing with others...there must be a template or tempo or else it is a free-for all. If the count is arbitary or a guess, you will pretty soon have a mess. The feel is subjective, the time is absolute. And nexdt rule is to play with people who can do this... it saves you so much hassle and bother. I put it to the two posters who were describing problems with their drummer, that wouldn't it be easier for them, if the drummer played decent time and a regular pattern. The regular pattern is less of a hard and fast rule, but it sure helps if he plays a section consistantly with a set drum pattern. It is total crap if a drummer goes off and starts moving the kick around...for the only reason that he is bored and has just thought of something else to do...when that leaves everyone who has tried to lock in ..high and dry..????

[quote name='thunderbird13' timestamp='1331638794' post='1576215'] I think this is a really interesting point and I'm always in 2 minds what to do when the drummer slows down or speeds up - do I follow him and try to make everything seem tight or do I remain on what I think the correct tempo is and hope that everyone pulls themselves back onto that. [/quote] No, you don't ..if the drummers wavers, then you have to keep him on time, you don't want to go with him, ideally. It really should be the job of the drummer,to set time and tempo, but if he can't do it, you have two choices... get someone who can, which is the better option, IMO, or you have to dictate when he can't. This is pain for the other players and really should be the last resort.

For a big band it is not really excusable..and I would rather them use more players to do the parts required. 4 pieces are pretty limited in this regard, so why don't they just admit some parts needed augmention and put those guys on stage.... not try and hide them from the cams..!! For more local bands, there is more excuse as there is a cost element...which really shouldn't be a factor for large stage show bands, IMO.

For a start, the bass drum accent does not determine the bar count, unless he is playng 4 on the floor, which is a disco dance term. The count of the song is beats per min... and you'd equate this with the count the drums may give at the start of the song, either with sticks or not, or even a plain 1,2,3,4. That becomes the time and tempo of the song. And with that set, you can count down the bars throughout, should you want to. or simple common time 4/4, most people feel the sections in 4, 8 or 16 bar groups as this is most natural to us. You don't have to lock onto the bass drum exclusively, altho a lot do, but you do have to lock into his rhythm.. there may be parts of the song where the kick is out but you can play... but the simplest and most effective way of sounding like a unit is to play along with what the drums do, and accent his most important beats. I am a bit confused about how you describe these 20-30 or so drummers playing. There must be songs that would need and use the more simple patterns, and within the count of 4, it would go kick, snare, kick snare..with the kick on beats 1 and 3 and the snare on 2 and 4. and that would be your count-thru of the bars should you be using a chart or needing to know where you are in any section of a song. It takes a special drummer to make that simple bar structure drum pattern alone really interesting which is why they may use a back beat on the snare or whatever ..but mostly they will add a hi-hat pattern over it, to jazz it a little. And then..some drummers can make that sound amazing and others like treading water. As I say, I am a little confused here..you may get one or two quirky drummers but not 20 or so... The essense of the drummer is to provide a very constant pattern through the section of bars..so verse goes 8 bars of this pattern and 8 bars of a different chorus pattern typically, but one thing he nevers does is waver with the tempo is 99% of songs. Did I read your post right with this reply.?

For me it is simple. Get the big all valve amp with a cab or cabs to handle it. You don't have to worry about tone...you just want that room full of valves sound. Same with Ampeg...don't bother with the hybrids.

I'd say Beatles every day of the week and twice on sundays. Wings was a massive come-down which mainly gave credence to the observation that Lennon was the better writer..altho, I wouldn't go that far having heard some of his solo stuff. They both REALLY needed the other person, IMO.

oohh...good one, I'll start. Geddy Lee. mush and mess. Steve Harris ok, we get it, triplets.

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1331493753' post='1573759'] Mate, you are advising someone with little confidence to do something which may give them even less confidence. You know as little about his problem as we do, and yet you prescribe him with 'constant heartbeat' and go on to deride his drummer's use of the kick. When someone here who may be inexperienced asks for help, I believe we need to consider the level of influence they may take from what we say, get them to examine the root cause of their problems - not just give them a new set of problems, and act with a sense of responsibility to them in mind. [/quote] Well, I hope you remember that advice as well. FWIW, I agree we are off topic......................but I would say that if someone is struggling and they ask for advice on a public forum or post about something they don't get then at least this is pretty in-house. I think you should be able to fix this sort of stuff within the confines of the band and no one outside needs to know what it took to fix it. With the collective wisdom here.,.or not... then this might be their best source. And if yopu are loking for references or standards of practice then I have given them some. They may ignore it or the may take it in..but it isn't wrong. I wont repeat it but if anyone is interested, I'm basically saying what they need to be aware of.. IIRC..the OP was about being a bad bassist .... their defintion, not mine... well, if they can bring the drums up to speed, they will both sound way better.

pet hate.. flowery drummers...!! This is '1' and there are no guesses..!! it is where it is because that is where it was determined at the beginning of the track. And I don't want the drummer bending to where he thinks everyone might be leaning, his job is to keep that track online with pulse and tempo and then you stand a chance of that groove that everyone says they want. If there is any letup from that..the groove has gone.. and you just have a rhythmic section. So back to the OP...or the point that took us to this about the guy without a kick, just play with a constant heathbeat and it will be a start. I am not sure how drums get away with not using kick drunms for very long tho...??????

If a drummer can't drive the band..and I am not talking about ethereal pieces, then you'll have your train wreck again. Of course, everyone else can have a piece of that action, but the drummer cannot opt out if that is what the songs needs.

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1331489566' post='1573651'] Again, this is nonsense. Drums can be a fluidly played set of instruments used for a variety of musical purposes beyond keeping rhythm and tempo. [/quote] If they can't hold time, then you have a train wreck. There just is no excuse for it. and you can't have a groove with time all over the place.

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1331465696' post='1573091'] Yes, that's a fair point and I know what you mean (I think). I may not be explaining myself very well. Perhaps the problem is that the drummer is following me rather than being in the driving seat? I've not experienced this before and it doesn't feel comfortable. [/quote] If the drummer can't set the pulse or tempo then he has no use whatsover.

Decent enough last night and we played at a very considerate volume for the gig. Really like the sound of the room as well.......... so an ok event all round. Weddings..for a friend..are never easy

ok, don't learn the lines then,.... that in itself is not a problem, but you have to know enough about what the song is doing to be able to offer up your own lines so depending how good your knowledge is or your natural ear and improvisation is, will make this an easy or really tough task. What sets the tone for how I appproach a track is the feel of the song or a particular riff, groove or part...that points me in the direction I will take with my style of playing. So basically, I want to know the chord patterns and song format and the rest is for me to embellish or not as I see fit. It may well be that you haven't recognised what fits your style or ear so much yet..and you are slavishly following other parts. You need to work from an inspiration, IMO, otherwise you are cloning parts which can be as much fun as piles...???? Anyway, you may approach or work differently, but if nothing else, your practice regime should be about being as clean as possible. this is never a wasted skill-set. If you are struggling beyone this, then book a lesson or two off an inspirational player/teacher.

[quote name='BeLow' timestamp='1330886068' post='1564389'] I thought I would give this a plug as I really rate Mansons as a shop and would like to support them. The show this year is going to be in the Exeter Corn Exchange and talking with Adrian at the London Bass Day he is hoping to make this year's show a bit different to previous ones. It is a smaller venue and I think he wants to bring really enthusiastic exhibitors to the show, so I am keen to see how it shapes up. It is not Bass specifc but in the past I have throughly enjoyed it. [url="http://www.mansons.co.uk/news/2012/113.html"]http://www.mansons.c...s/2012/113.html[/url] [/quote] Good shout, I like to use them... having said that, they were going to come back to me about a delivery date for some stuff that needs to come from the states, and they haven't..