xilddx

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1334411206' post='1615871'] The important part is I was saying 'my audience', vs. telling people about their own audience, as in 'your audience won't know the difference', I know my audience, personally for the most part, they can tell. I've been saying loads of time: more to it than sound. Your audience doesn't come for your rig, mine does, if I went without rig, it is equivalent to you going without sitar player, I just used you as an example because I have that information to hand. This is what I mean by not all gigs are the same. [/quote] Fair enough mate. Apologies, I see what you mean. Sort of Mr Foxen and his travelling amplification extravaganza. I've not come across anything like that before so I misunderstood.

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1334409374' post='1615834'] Agreed, incredible stuff! [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyPgBzqKlUs"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyPgBzqKlUs[/url] [/quote] Wow! How amazing is that!

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1334402965' post='1615691'] It is the music. It is all one thing. This is that disconnected thing people use as a criticism of digital gear. You are thinking or your equipment as an obstacle not a means of expression. Dunno what you mean by mismatched. But the dynamic sound field (as in sound changes as you move, and the dynamic of the instrument is also dependent on the position of the player) presented by multi amp and speaker setups is very much part of the live experience both as a listener and a player. Obviously some are happy to pile up tons of amps and be good to go, but a bunch of time spending soundcheck wandering about an finding the places where feedback happens and doesn't is something I find a necessity. Sunn O))) have an 8 hour sound check for the purpose. also, the smell of hot valves is a commented feature, which can't be simulated, although I keep my amps very clean for reliability, so they don't tend to smell as much as I do at a gig. [b]I think it is silddx in the band with the sitar player? I have got the impression, possibly mistaken, that she and her instrument are the main focus of the music. Going without real amps would be like maybe her rocking a variax on sitar setting, or one of those electric sitars, or maybe being a recording.[/b] [/quote] Yeah that's me mate. She does classical raag concerts and it's her and the tabla player, she sometimes uses a Trace Acoustic amp but normally goes direct. The full band is far more contemporary, mixing Balkan, bhangra, rock, ambient, folk, ska, electronica, with a mostly traditional sitar sound. Drums, keys, sax, tabla, guitar, (bass sometimes) and sitar. She goes direct via a Korg tuner and a Boss DS-1 distortion. She has no problem whatever with me and my Strat and the POD DIed. I had also planned to use my acoustic guitar on a few numbers, as she originally wanted, but she was happy with my sounds and told me not to bother. Also, I do understand where you are coming from with your band, and would agree that what you use is the most suitable for what you do. But please, don't be giving it large with that sh*t about insulting audiences by using modelling rigs, or that they sound inferior to the 'real' thing, because that is just ignorant and misguided. Cheers.

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1334402003' post='1615672'] [color=#222222]It seems to me that there is an awful lot of justification going in this thread. For example, Silldx mentioned that the engineer at a recording session didn’t use the best mic to record the vocalist so that he could get a better live performance by allowing her to play her keyboard at the same time. His mate then piles in and says this was, in fact, an inspired choice and gave some spurious reason that her voice is somehow better suited to the lesser mic. This, of course, is b0110cks – the engineer was forced to compromise and didn’t use the better mic for practical reasons.[/color] [color=#222222]If you are trying to get to gigs on public transport or you have a hairdresser’s car that you can’t carry any gear in, then a pod seems a practical solution, as is carrying one bass in a gigbag. If you then work out how to get the best out of it you may then manage convince yourself that you got the pod because it is better than the amp it attempts to imitate, rather than the real reason, which is that you didn’t want to have to lug a heavy amp around![/color] [/quote] I had a valve Fender Twin, and a bunch of expensive effects. The POD is way more versatile and reliable, portable, powerful, etc. But the fact is, I LOVE the sounds I get from from it. It really is that simple. I don't need to justify anything other than that. You are clutching at straws Pete. I do understand why people are distrustful of new technology, however.

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1334398722' post='1615597'] How would they know exactly? [/quote] Because the gear for Foxen's band is more important than the music?

HAHAHAHA! That is REALLY good! Thumbs up! I can't stand that little expressionless tap you do, it has no musical reason for existing. But everything else is very well played. You are going to be one hell of a bassist if you keep that up.

[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1334344677' post='1615039'] This. I personally think most people hear what they want to hear. They see a modelling amp and they hear sh*t, they see a half stack and it sounds great...when in fact they both sound the same near as hell. Charic's hit on the head though, most of the crap you hear from a modelling amp is because people don't know how to 'set them up'. I had this problem with a Line6 Lowdown 300. Only when Charic provided me with a few pointers (thanks ) did I start to feel comfortable with the sound I was getting. What did it sound like? Much like my own combo when playing in a band context. I recently saw a band playing live twice, a couple of months apart. In those 2 months they, unknown to me, changed their bass player - I'll be honest I just thought the guy had had a shave...dear o dear . The first time I saw them the bass player had a full stack, a 410 on top a 115, a full sound blah, blah, blah. The second time I saw them, with a new bass player, I spent the first 10 minutes trying to figure out where the bass players rig was. He didn't have one, he was playing through a Line6 Pod, into the desk, straight to the PA and using in ear monitoring. He sounded the same as the previous guy and has the same tone as on the CD I bought that night...which he doesn't play on. [/quote] An excellent example, thanks for this post mate

[quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1334342628' post='1614997'] Wow, thanks for the heads-up, that's all gone straight on the recorder. Never seen the whole of that Skynyrd OGWT. Can't wait. [/quote] Great nostalgia! Awful music!

Thanks, that's one channel off my list

[quote name='musophilr' timestamp='1334334454' post='1614828'] I'm sure that what sounds good at home won't sound good live. But that is also true of real analogue and "proper" valve amps. So what's the big deal with getting a good live sound out of a modelling amplifier? [/quote] I have no idea, because I've never had that problem. Unless it's that they sort their sounds in isolation and they sound sh*t with a band, but again, amp users do that too.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1334330169' post='1614734'] Anything for guitarists needs to be idiot proofed. A million adjustable parameters is not an example of this. Yesterday a band came round to collect an amp for their bassist. The guitarist stood next to two head high stacks of amps, and asks 'do you have any guitar amps?' [/quote] But also how many bassists (or guitarists) have no idea what a standby does for a valve amp. and how to use it, or understand the resistance of cabinets to heads, or that resistance is needed to stop a valve amp self destructing ? Give almost all musicians a 4 way parametric with Q to play with and they will look at you like you've just asked them to sh*t in their grandma's eye.

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' timestamp='1334326099' post='1614616'] I'm joining this party a bit late, but I've done various sessions (live and studio) with modelling and various amps (guitar and bass) and I don't like modelling. IMO it's like buying a corsa then putting a ferrari body on it and saying it's just as good as the real thing.[b] All of the manipulation that happens inside modelling units is manipulation, it's not "natural" sounds[/b]. The biggest problem for me is that live, high gain sounds never fit in the mix properly, they seem to behave like scooped tones where they can sound great on their own but when they go into a mix they disappear. The same thing happens in the studio but the engineer obviously has a lot more control over the sound, there's layers etc. Given the choice between amp or modelling, it's a no brainer for me. Modelling for clean tones is better than modelling for distortions, generally clean modelling is pretty good nowadays, it's still not as good as a decent amp though IMO. If you want a variety of sounds and/or can't take an amp to gigs (e.g. you don't have a car and rely on public transport) then modelling is a good solution. If you're in a studio and people always turn up with crap amps then having modelling software rather than spending thousands on amps then having to store them, modelling is a good solution. That's all it is to me currently though, a solution, I just don't think they match up to a real amp if you have that option available. [/quote] And a guitar with a transducer and circuitry, going via a cable into a bunch of effect pedals, more cable to a pre-amplifier full of circuitry and valves connected to a power-amplifier full of circuitry and valves connected to a wooden cabinet with some loudspeakers, with a microphone in front of them relaying the sound from those speakers (and your feet tapping, trousers flapping, and all the other racket on a stage) via another long cable into a channel strip full of circuitry and out through another amp via a bunch of outboard, into more even bigger loudspeakers, IS NATURAL?

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1334320156' post='1614431'] As far as revealing neuances in a "tone" I think we can all agree studio conditions are far better than live. [/quote] Quite!

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1334319582' post='1614412'] so you can mic or DI a modelling rig and get a great sound in the studio, but as soon as you mic it or DI it at a gig it's no longer a great sound. That makes absolutely no sense to me. If my sound wasn't working live there's no way i'd use it in the studio. [/quote] I 'think' what peteb means is that big rooms and PAs amplify all the sh*t he thinks is present in a modelled sound, and the aural result is weak compared to a 'real' rig. I don't agree of course.

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1334317393' post='1614363'] [b]But I assume that you were not playing in a large room thru a PA with an audience present?? The music you produced went straight to disk where it could be manipulated by the engineer.[/b] I recognise the playing the rancid, foetid note bit - I used to hate recording studios! [/quote] True enough, however, he didn't eq any more than a FoH engineer would, he just got a balance. None of us used headphones either. The PA was the studio monitors in the control room, we played at stage volume. It wasn't a big room as you can see in the pic, it was part of a larger room though.

[quote name='lxxwj' timestamp='1334316219' post='1614326'] Hey, I just put a cable in an amp and turn the mids up. [i]shrugs[/i] But being serious, I think digital modeling sounds a lot worse on guitar. Especially distortions/overdrives, for those you really need a good amp or pedal. Digital phasers/flangers/choruses sound fine to my ear, same with delays (if you want that hi-fi sound) but everything else tends to suck, with the exception of pitch bend, because you can't get analog pitch bend. Really, if you want a decent effects module for bass, just get a Pod or a Zoom or a Line 6, and your tone isn't really super treble-y anyway, so it won't mess that up with crap digital effects. But if you're a guitar player and you want the perfect distortion, just buy a friggin' tube amp already. [/quote] Ahh, my POD overdrives and distortions (for guitar) are lovely, and respond to finger touch, pick attack and volume knob roll off just like my Fender Twin and my boutique effects and THD Powersoak (that I sold with not a single regret).

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1334315783' post='1614312'] Recording in a studio and live are two completely different things [/quote] We recorded live, in the studio mate In the same room, stage set up, no separation. No overdubs. no fixes (except one two bar section for me where I played the most rancid, foetid note I have ever set finger on).

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1334313920' post='1614248'] Sounds like a man who has his method down and uses his ears more than most [/quote] One funny thing was he put this large mic in front of Kit but she was having problems seeing her keys properly, it was also very heavy and the mic stand couldn't handle the weight and it started drooping a little bit. Kit asked if there were any alternatives, he said yeah, we can sling a SM58 in front of you. She asked if there would be a difference and he replied that her voice might not sound as lovely, but what the f***, if the great mic is inhibiting her performance, we'll use the Shure, and that's what we did. Still sounds lovely.

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1334312293' post='1614198'] There are a lot of people who call themselves sound engineers who couldn't mix concrete! They tend to be the ones who are the most nerdy about gear, mic placements and special techniques - the pros a lot less so.... [/quote] We did some live studio recording with Ash Evans at his studio a couple of weeks ago [i](He was first to record Noah & the Whale, and Mumford & Sons, and has since worked with Emmy the Great, Sparkadia, and ASH to name a few. He is 1/3 of the band [url="http://http//soundcloud.com/emperoryes"]Emperor Yes[/url], does live sound for Three Trapped Tigers and CLARK and was responsible for setting up the [url="http://houseofstrange.wordpress.com/"]House of Strange[/url].). [/i]His approach is very quick and dirty. Hardly gives a sh*t about equipment (he has so good stuff though) and mic placement (as long as everything is phased properly). His philosphy is that the performance is everything, and that sound is a bit of an illusion, you can make a good performance sound great with reasonable sound quality, but the best sound quality can't make up for a poor or under-energised performance. On his desk he had an original Roland Space Echo. I said 'WOW! Those are very sought after' He said it's a piece of sh*t that takes 15 minutes after powering up to make remotely usable, and thinks free digital plug ins for delays are way better. He didn't care what amps our guitarist used as long as they were reasonably quiet - tried an old Vox (too noisy) went with a little Fender combo that was newish and just threw a mic in front of it. No pissing about. Told the four violinists to use their pickups, the mics only recording was poor, the pickups and a mic sounded so much better. He really liked the POD sounds I had so he just got me a big monitor and a tiny 4 channel mixer to play through in the room but the signal went strainght to the desk from the POD. Dums miced very simply (bass and snare miced with two Coles for overheads. Set them up and left them, no messing.) All this straight onto Logic Pro. I've heard the recording completely unmixed and the sounds are lovely. We are all delighted. Can't wait for the mixed versions.

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1334310539' post='1614140'] Whether he knows what he is doing is one thing (please bear in mind that he has 25 years gigging experience under his belt) but undoubtedly the valve amp sounds [b]much [/b]better! FWIW - I hate the pod and most modeling amps live, I think that they are really unconvincing. However, life is about compromises and I accept that in certain situations they have their uses. However, please don't kid yourself that they are as good as a decent amp in a big room - they're not.......... [/quote] I have 29 years of gigging experience in my leather trousers, so f*** 'im. On your second point, my POD sounds so f***ing cool live (and in the studio), with guitar or bass. I heard my guitar through a decent sized PA last Saturday as it happens, it sounded glorious. The sound guy had a very large grin when I ripped into Whole Lotta Love in the soundcheck. And my clean sounds were rich and delicious. YMMV.

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1334308485' post='1614079'] Dare I say it, and I swing back and fore between 'amp modelling is the best thing since sliced bread' and 'but its still not the real thing', I have kind of reached the point where I have bigger fish to fry and can't be bothered with all the knob twiddling digital gear requires. Having all this kit that can make an E barre chord sound a million differnt ways like a million different guitars through a million different amps doesn't change the fact that it is an E barre chord. Get the sounds anyway you want; 98% of the listening public, including most musos, won't be able to tell the difference, especially if htey are listening to an ipod on the bus !! I know I can't. But I can tell when the music is derivative, predictable and boring! Can you get a digital piece of kit tham makes my cheesy jazz compositions more interesting/advanced? I'll have two!! [/quote] I know what you mean, but I hear sounds in my head and I can spend ten munites with my POD and almost always get those sounds and make them good for real playing situations..

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1334250184' post='1613287'] [b]True story[/b] - a good friend of mine is a very useful guitar player who plays in a band that gigs a lot (and I do mean a lot). However, he is a touch on the lazy side and he used to use a digital combo because he couldn’t be bothered lugging a 4x12 and heavy valve amp around. He used to swear that his set-up was as good if not better as those with boogie half stack or whatever other guitar players playing in similar bands were using despite this obviously not being the case and several people informing of this fact! So what does our hero do? He gets a more expensive modelling amp, which admittedly does sound pretty good in his front room but still pretty weak in a live situation. Eventually he bites the bullet and buys a boutique valve amp (only a 1x12 combo thru) and lo and behold he has a great sound that everyone complements him on and he could not be happier…. [b]And the moral of this story….. a modelling type amp may sound fine in a small room on its own but in a live scenario at least, it will never come close to a decent ‘proper’ amp, even if it weighs an awful lot less![/b] [/quote] That's frankly, absolute bollocks, Pete. Your guitarist doesn't know what he's doing.

[quote name='Stickman' timestamp='1334230224' post='1612843'] Sorry Nige, I'm out of the country that week! [/quote] No worries mate, hope you have a lovely trip. Can you bring some Creme de Menthe back with you please? Cheers, Nx

[quote name='Low End Bee' timestamp='1334226879' post='1612742'] I'm in! I like the Half Moon [/quote] Wickid! Garcon! Deux Creme de Menthe, sil vous plait

[quote name='kjb' timestamp='1334227856' post='1612776'] I just think that, if you give criticism then it should be in a positive manner, and not use it in a negative way. [/quote] I hope you are not negatively criticising those of us critics who critique negatively.