Musicman20

8x10....last night I think even a 2x12 would have been overkill.

Over on talkbass, Uffe from TC has stated he is going to discuss the APM/Wattage in more depth on Monday. It seems he had a lot more pressing matters (a newborn baby!) on his mind, which puts the ridiculous witch hunt into perspective.

I had a great Trace amp but I wouldn't go for one again now. The 12 band graphic never really worked out for me. Very bright/trebly with not enough low mids.

[quote name='Mark Latimour' post='1352496' date='Aug 26 2011, 02:41 PM']What's your personal view on the ethics of what TCE have done?[/quote] Probably should have been marketed differently. But, Ive seen countless amps rated as one wattage, and tested as lower. I agree, they need to make a statement and clarify properly. Either that, or provide more evidence. I don't think its the criminal act many other's seem to think it is. If it performed badly/underpowered, then yes, Id be angry, but in my eyes, something is a miss with these ratings. There has to be more to it, more than we understand, that allows the amp to be so incredibly punchy and, IMO, powerful. Part of the backlash is probably that some competitors are annoyed TC managed to snatch so much of the market with their first ever bass amp.

Ethics is a touch subject im afraid. Everyone will have their personal view on it. For example, I rarely will take any notice of an endorsee bashing a rival company. Why? Ethics. Plus, common sense.

The more that thread goes on, the more immensely funny it becomes. I wonder why there is so much venom, and why the witch hunt? You don't see it against Genz/MB, when they release amps that dont reach their wattage on bench tests. (Not an attack on those companies, btw, great products).

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1352440' date='Aug 26 2011, 02:01 PM']There are two distinct camps on this issue at TB. One (which I subscribe to) says that lying about the power ratings of their amps is just plain wrong. The other, which is typified by responses like yours, says that as long as it sounds good we don't care if they are advertising fraudulent power ratings. Consider that attitude the next time you go to the petrol pump that may, or may not, be giving you every liter you've paid for.[/quote] Its not really the same though. If they gave you a different petrol, less of it, but it in fact does exactly the same as the other spec wise, or in fact outperforms, (which we have heard this amp do) then there is no problem. Sure they should have maybe marketed it differently, but the amount of crazy passionate responses by people who havent played or heard the amp looks like a witch hunt, and I think they should probably get out more and play bass more.

It covers my current favourites: 3TS White BUT, they should have a few more exciting ones, eg seafoam green. I think the most exciting colours now come from Musicman. I really want a Musicman, doesnt matter which, in one of the more 'out there' colours like Tangerine Pearl/Lava Pearl.

Ampeg still cant create a true micro amp that doesnt have a failure rate (see the thread on Talkbass) and thats just a simple small solid state 200W amp with very simplistic controls. Everything else they make is still too large/too heavy for the market they are trying to reach.

I miss John F!

[quote name='alexclaber' post='1352221' date='Aug 26 2011, 11:32 AM']No it isn't. Good but small cab + big power = nice tone and volume. Or large cab + small power = nice tone and volume. But good but small cab + small power = not enough loudness or fatness. Is that so hard to understand? An analogy is sailing - small cab is like having a small sail. If you want to move at a decent speed you have two options - smaller boat (ie less bottom) or more wind (ie more amp power). Or get a bigger sail (bigger cab) or more sails (more small cabs).[/quote] Not in the slightest bit hard to understand, again, I tend to defer from delving too deep into audio engineering because I spend enough time keeping up to date with the English Legal System, so as you can imagine, I get to a point when I know I don't really need to go any further into the understanding for just enjoying being a bassist. Again, I wouldnt want to throw 800W at a small cabinet, no matter what engineering went into it. If I was struggling, id add another cabinet.

[quote name='chris_b' post='1352234' date='Aug 26 2011, 11:43 AM']So my experience of "masses of low end" isn't "masses of low end"? What is it then?[/quote] I imagine super deep reggae/dubstep/drum & bass low end, which I would personally want the PA to work on. Ive never played a gig where they have wanted that chest thumping low end, although Ive seen a few large live bands do it at very large gigs.

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='1352195' date='Aug 26 2011, 11:16 AM']Ah, OK. I've learned to never trust what I hear in a shop. [/quote] Its less of a shop and more of a testing ground! When I mean crank I really do mean crank to proper volume. After being a little OTT with regards to research on the recent micro amp surge, I knew what to look for. If it doesnt sound great to my ears in the shop, then it wont sound great, to me, at home, or at low volume rehearsals, or potentially in the studio, so I wont buy it just for a tone that works 'on the gig' and thats it, (then we start getting into 'Sadowsky gig tone' territory). A lot of players don't get to gig much and just play at home, record, etc, so as much as the gig is 80% of the reason we may buy amps, there are more uses, for me, that I find important.

What is the 'deep' bass useful for though? Apart from damaging not-so-highly-spec'd cabinets? haha. We are all different, but that deep sub bass is not my tone at all. Id find it very hard to find use for it onstage.

I think it also gets to the point when enough is enough. Use the PA for support and keep the stage volume reasonable, to protect your ears a little more if nothing else, (even when using ear protection I have been in bands where even that isnt quite enough). Unless you are in Metallica, the volume is moot.

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='1352163' date='Aug 26 2011, 10:59 AM']Did you gig with the Staccato?[/quote] It was literally an A/B test before I bought the 450, which I recently sold to get the 750. So, no, I understand this isnt the greatest of tests, but I trust my ears. The Bass Merchant let me crank the living hell out of both of them as they are on industrial estate. Two RS cabs. The clear deep bottom end of the Staccato is very obvious when A/Bed with the 450. The bass was similar to the Streamliner, eg, I had to cut it, which was quite odd. Much more present highs as well. I gigged with the 450 a fair few times, mainly in a pretty excessive modern punk band which involved very fast clear runs on bass. I was always impressed as were the soundmen. Nowadays I have 2 micros I rotate for gigs. For sheer ease/features/mix cut, the 750 edges the Streamliner IMO. But, both have their merits of excellent tone, just different. The 450/750 is definitely more focussed on low mids, which personally I like. The STL900 to me is more about, as you noted 'meat and potatoes' bass tone. Very fat, very warm, clear smooth mids and highs. The bass is outstanding, but sometimes a little too much...it all depends I have a LM3 incoming, so I intend to make a demo of sorts about all three amps into one cabinet/using one bass.

[quote name='chris_b' post='1352155' date='Aug 26 2011, 10:54 AM']My experience is that the Staccato has a ton of "deep bottom". It's the only amp I've used in the last 20 years where I've had to wind the bass back, and the volume is on a par with a 500 watt amp. For years in the IT business we’ve seen aggressive marketing campaigns of this type. It’s called FUD, fear, uncertainty and doubt. You don’t concentrate your marketing on the positive aspects of your product you just try to undermine the competition by innuendo. The hysteria being whipped up certainly smacks of being a coordinated "attack" on TC. This makes me suspicious of the motives. A bunch of Americans with an agenda doesn't make TC amps bad. We should see this campaign for what it is.[/quote] Probably the most sensible post ive seen on this subject over the past week, plus one to that. The Staccato has masses of low end, I tested one out before the RH450. It definitely does not lack low end/clean power and its essentially the same amp. It does seem rather 'coordinated' with many saying 'id sell now if I were you'...ridiculous.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1352153' date='Aug 26 2011, 10:52 AM']Also, an amp that distorts will give the impression of being louder at lower wattage from the harmonics, but also, its wattage will show up low, because you call it maximum just before it distorts however much. It might be 236w at 0.01% distortion, but 500w at probably acceptable 5% (depending on the character of the distortion).[/quote] Is this, do you think, how TC rated it? I know many have said the modern AD200b's are not 200W clean tube power, but by heck, it is incredibly loud. Even if it wasn't id still keep it because the tone is great.

I can understand the reason, but I still think my 'careful' nature would never throw that many watts at a small cabinet, no matter what the spec./price. That, I guess, is just my lack of knowledge, but still, id rather have more speakers than cram it all through one.

In addition, and no disrespect to the Bass Gear magazine, but they had issues with Genz when they rated one of their amps at half the power! Apparently they then changed the system for measuring. If anyone needs 1000W of clean head room, and they use it, they must be playing some pretty large professional gigs against a loud band. The whole wattage chase gets a little silly. Again, I find after all these arguments, no one really complained (ok maybe a few on the sound) about absolute volume. 99% of the talkbass threads were saying the amp pushed more volume than the Shuttle 6.0/LM3/F500, regardless of tone. The 450 was marketed as a modern take on vintage tube tone, so its going to sound like a tube amp pushed, because its supposed to. Personally, im happy to use my 750, gig it, and ignore most of this because it will calm down, and those getting overly excited on other forums will get bored of arguing about something they dont own.

Wow, runs out of steam?! Seriously?! I can understand if you were in a really really loud heavy band against a few Marhshall stacks and you only had a 4x10, but then again, ive been there, and its super super loud. For everything else, its overkill. Even if it doesnt have a huge low end, and focusses more on a low mid kick with that 'pushed tube' compression, surely thats what it was meant to do? No one expected it to be super clean, crisp, with a huge low end. As some of the users of the LM3 vs F500 have said, the F500 doesnt go as deep/low and packs a bigger punch, which seems to make it seem 'louder' whereas the LM3 gets wider...the more you turn up. I think most were quite happy until the apparent wattage rating came out, and now everyone wants to jump on it. Sure, it isnt massively clean with a huge low end like the Streamliner, but for that tight low mid kick, that sits right in the mix and lets you cut if you want to, the 450 and then 750 is hard to beat, IMO and IME.

Apparently they wouldnt make him a signature model. I really dislike the Modulus designs...they sound 'ok' but a little brittle. Nowt like a Musicman Humbucker, no matter what the expense.

I think the Talkbass thread is ridiculous. Actually, I think some of the personal attacks on the staff at TC are quite excessive. I doubt TC will involve themselves at market level to the consumers again, which is a shame, because Ive had help/phonecalls/tested for Uffe and he's a genuine chap, and a bass player. I also think there is some sort of vendetta from the Jimmy M chap because they didnt want him on the test pilot program, Every thread he moans about TC, and now he is endorsed by Ampeg (who, lets face it, probably lost a lot of business to TC) I find it all ridiculous. It wouldnt happen on Basschat like that, and if it did, Id hope the mods would sort it out. I think there is more than meets the eye with the RH amps...its not just a case of 'oh its 240 ish watts', because they have build it a power management tool that essentially boosts that. Has anyone ever complained about the power? Not one. Most said 'this is the loudest micro on the market' (a year or so ago). It definitely outperforms the Markbass 500W amps and the Genz Shuttle 6.0 in terms of volume. I also don't trust any tests on wattage, because there are too many variables at stake. I am no audio engineer btw, I am always dubious about marketing but I am also dubious about isolated tests. It seems unless you have some sort of career/education in this field, your thoughts and opinions and batted off by the usual 'experts' which I find terribly boring and quite frankly, rude.