BigBeefChief

[quote name='Eight' post='480856' date='May 6 2009, 12:18 PM']Leave the superior aspect out - I've never said anything along those lines. Let me try this another way. There's two chaffeur jobs available. One requires the ability to speak Chinese. One doesn't. I don't speak Chinese, how many of those jobs can I apply for? One. Alice does speak Chinese, how many can she apply for? Both. Now, you can throw up all the pedantic excuses in the world here ("AH but what if Alice can't drive; just because she speaks Chinese doesn't mean she can drive" etc.) but the fact is, on this occassion, Alice has a required skill that I do not.[/quote] Yeah, but she's probably a commie.

[quote name='Eight' post='480914' date='May 6 2009, 12:53 PM']Ok yes, that's a fair point. So the opportunities for readers are to be belittling. Non readers can be insulting. Sorted. [/quote] It works something like this: Readers = arrogant Non-readers = ignorant

[quote name='Eight' post='480906' date='May 6 2009, 12:50 PM']But you do that all the time without reading skills. [/quote] I thought I was more insulting than belittling??

[quote name='Rich' post='480863' date='May 6 2009, 12:21 PM']Essential in order to do what, exactly?[/quote] Belittle people on bass forums.

[quote name='rslaing' post='480506' date='May 5 2009, 11:07 PM']Would you tell me which present day jazz artists have a "paint by numbers" approach leading to worthless music? Thanks[/quote] How about Pepe Shuckles, Milton Jones, Art Stilton, LeRoy Oxbow, The Catscan Trio, Lenny Bernstein.... The list goes on.

[quote name='rslaing' post='480298' date='May 5 2009, 07:39 PM']Why bother to learn to read at all when you always hum, whistle or sing your ideas to your band mates, and they can then spend an inordinate amount of time trying to interpret what you are going on about? Then you can build a library of stale numbers (well they will be by the time you have learned them via the humming, la-la-la, "let's listen to the cd again lads" method) that everyone in the band will be bored with and then you can start on the cycle again [/quote] I play in an originals band, so there's no CD to learn from. No one in my band reads. All music is communicated aurally. [quote name='rslaing' post='480298' date='May 5 2009, 07:39 PM']Hopefully I won't start off another war here, but SIGHT reading is an essential skill too. If not just for the purpose of learning music that is important to you - very quickly. It's also cheaper than having to source the number you are trying to learn, maybe by buying the cd, or more than likely pirating it and copying it to all your band-mates and thereby scoring a double whammy by depriving the copyright owners/record company - who have provided the facility and financing - of any income?[/quote] I play in an originals band. [quote name='rslaing' post='480298' date='May 5 2009, 07:39 PM']"However, a side-effect will be a hideously self-indulgent originals side project churning out jazz muzak." What is that supposed to mean?[/quote] People who study theory to a high level usually churn out crap music that only appeals to other musicians. [quote name='rslaing' post='480298' date='May 5 2009, 07:39 PM']If it wasn't for people producing original music and sounds (whatever the genre), and having the ability to transmit their ideas by either technology, or more importantly by the WRITTEN element (for posterity and accurate reproduction of their ingenuity) you wouldn't even have heard anywhere near the amount of music you might have listened to.[/quote] I play in an originals band. It's great that people can read and transcribe music. I'm all for. I'm glad people like you exist. Its not neccessary for everyone. We do a couple of covers. We learnt them by ear. Obviously to you this isn't a valid form of learning music. I'm sorry. [quote name='rslaing' post='480298' date='May 5 2009, 07:39 PM']Maybe you could give us an idea of your preferred choice of music, and reasons for it, so we can have a greater understanding of your critical posts? That would be very interesting.[/quote] I like all sorts. Feel free to check out our myspace site: www.myspace.com/gimmeshelta. I apologies for the bass playing in advance. You probably won't like it, so feel free to sling me in the bargain bucket with Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles.

I never play a song all the way through unless playing with by band. Get bored or shouted at.

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='480086' date='May 5 2009, 04:55 PM']So, sorry BBC -- learning to read music doesn't propel you down the whitewater rapids of the river to jazz-w**k noodlery and appreciating how "clever" things are. It's music theory that does that! [/quote] Don't get me wrong, learning too much theory (and I include learning to read in this) sends you down a path of jazz-w***ery. However, if you want to make money out of playing bass, the most likely avenue is session work. I've never disagreed that learning to read is great for a session musician. However, a side-effect will be a hideously self-indulgent originals side project churning out jazz muzak. Personally, I have no desire to be a session musician, but if that's your bag, then learn to site read.

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='480047' date='May 5 2009, 04:20 PM']One other point to debate: the value of learning to read vs that of learning to SIGHT read a gig.[/quote] Now that's an incredible skill. If you want to take this music lark seriously and make a living from it, I can see a small benefit in learning to read to an average standard, but a huge benefit in learning to sight read a gig. Its something that I will never be able to do that's for sure!

I love the way guys like OutToPlayJazz and Jakesbass explain things. You can tell that noy only do they know their stuff, but also have a lot of experience in explaining it to numpties like me! Good work.

Nah, it's only bass. Play the root, the odd pentatonic fill, show up on time and don't shag the singers missus. You're a pro. Job done.

[quote name='rslaing' post='479359' date='May 4 2009, 08:37 PM']One thing is for sure, unless a musician aspires to be able to play stuff that others can't (unless he is intent on being an average amateur - which is fine too) he will not improve his potential.[/quote] Maybe I'm missing the point here. Everytime i practice am I supposed to be aiming to play things that others can't? I've been concentrating on playing things that sound good! What a fool I've been!

[quote name='AM1' post='479367' date='May 4 2009, 08:45 PM']Before I make any further responses on the actual subject matter of the thread........[/quote] You mean there's more to come? Lucky us.....

[quote name='rslaing' post='479359' date='May 4 2009, 08:37 PM']Countries that hold high levels of all round, quality musicians with unbelievable skill (who can probably all read music) do exist. But you have to go to Japan for classical, and Italy, for "proper" jazz, if that is your preference.[/quote] Can we get you a plane ticket?

I've heard rslaing's playing, and when the dust settles, he will remembered long after Stevie Wonder is all forgotten about. I mean, Stevie Wonder, it's just "POP" innit? Ray Charles? That actor from the Blues Brothers? A poor man's David Essex if you ask me. If they were REAL musicians, they wouldn't need that whole "blind" gimmick.

I PM'd that post to Jake 10 minutes ago and he nicked it off me.

Do I win? God I miss drinking.

my dad could have your dad.

your mum is.

you are.

[quote name='ARGH' post='478569' date='May 3 2009, 09:33 PM']Shall I just get the tape measure lads.....[/quote] Christ, I'd do badly at that as well.

[quote name='maxrossell' post='478565' date='May 3 2009, 09:31 PM']We're not REAL musicians.[/quote] But in my case, that really is true! I'm dreadful!

[quote name='rslaing' post='478552' date='May 3 2009, 09:18 PM']Good point.........but I can't be arsed to try and convert another non reader in to the benefits of being able to understand why it is so important to understand a least a little of music theory. So I give in...........you win.[/quote] There's nothing to convert! I understand an amount of music theory. I find it interesting. I also appreciate that there are plenty of musicians who are infinitely better than me that know absolutely no theory. I also don't believe that by learning to read they would definitely become better musicians. I judge the ability of a musician by the noises they make, not what they can write in a book.

[quote name='Eight' post='478544' date='May 3 2009, 09:09 PM']Reading has no baring at all on the kind of music you make. It's [i]one[/i] well-established and comprehensive system for accessing and recording music. But that's it. How (or if) you use it is up to you. Again, other elements far beyond the scope of reading music are being brought in here to try and make a point.[/quote] Either people who make crap music are drawn to learning to read, or people who learn to read make crap music. Not sure which is true, but one of them definitely is. Or maybe its both? Whatever. Bilbo used to be a right stud, leather trousers, long hair, thrusting groin, mother and daughter 3-somes. Learnt to read, now he's stuck in deepest darkest suffolk, working for "the man" and playing music that not even his dogs want to listen too.

[quote name='rslaing' post='478429' date='May 3 2009, 07:01 PM']So the people who can read music gave their 2p worth and their advice on what they think is the best way. Then the non readers jump in and assassinate. As I said, f*** it, I am out of here, it's starting to get a bit like the freemasons...................[/quote] You've been one of the most aggresive, provocative and patronising posters on this thread, and you're complaining about the non-readers??!! Some people read, some don't. It's a personal choice. Its not through laziness that people don't learn (well, not in every instance). To some people, the percieved rewards aren't worth the effort. If I could read, it would be a redundent skill for the musicians I play with. One day, I might learn. Likewise, I maintain that the majority of music you readers churn out is crap. It's like anything. Once you start getting geeky about things, it turns crap. If you play metal and add some geekiness, what have you got? Progressive metal. Which in my book makes you worse than a sex offender. Same with films, get geeky about it and you start watching 4hr long french art-house in black and white whilst smoking cafe cremes. Football? Same again. You go from arguing about the effectiveness of Peter Crouch with your mates down the pub to memorising the 1983 Bristol Rovers Reserve Squad. Ironside was right in regards to his comments on punk and blues. Born out of "musical ignorance". Send those same players to Berklee for three years and they'd come back playing that the type of water-boarding jazz that a lot of you pretend to like. The world needs players who read, there will always be sessions to record and jingles to perform. But the world also needs the variety, quirks and f***-ups created by those who have never had a lesson in their life.