peteb

Quite like this one from tonight's gig...

[quote name='MB1' timestamp='1406733055' post='2514185'] 'peteb' I would say that the best analogy is probably that playing a relic’d bass is like making love to a beautiful woman – who has had a boob job! You might prefer the idea of the real thing but when it actually comes down to it, does it really matter?? MB1. You are Swiss Toni and I claim my £50 [/quote] At least somebody got the reference! If it is a good bass and it looks ok (for whatever reason) does it really matter about what particular finish it has ; be it relic, natural, fancy 'expensive coffee table' type thing or a solid paint job? Things (and people for that matter) can be attractive for different reasons so why get hung up on it??

I know some pretty competent players who play that tune (and others) on a 5 string by detuning the E string. Obviously you can play it on a 5 string that way...

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1406659411' post='2513536'] No, as has been proved earlier in this thread it is perfectly possible (if a bit harder) to play it on a conventionally tuned 5-string bass. From my PoV if I was going to play a bass line like this that required a low D and it was too complex to play without using the open string I'd want an instrument strung with something more substantial than a standard E string detuned a tone. To my ears the open D in that example is so undefined as a note that any percussive bass sound could replace it. I only becomes defined because we've already heard the note in the octave higher guitar part, so the brain fills it in. What bothers me most about this, is that there appears to be a weird unwritten rule that states the bass should automatically match whatever tuning the guitarist is using, when a lot of the time there is no real need and often the fact that the two instruments can't easily double the parts could actually lead to some more interesting harmonic ideas. [/quote] No, a few people have said 'oh yes, I could play it on a 5 string' but I have yet to see anyone do so convincingly. The whole point of the arrangement is the contrast between the half time feel on the the chorus and intro and the main riff that kicks in and motors along. They may be able to play the notes but they will struggle to nail the feel of the song, what with the fingering stretches required and the slightly awkward dampening. And why should they when they could simple detune the E string by a step? There is no rule to say that the bass has to double the guitar, but equally there is no reason why it shouldn't if the song requires it. This particular song is written around a reasonably fast open string riff and it makes sense for the bass to fill out the bottom end by rumbling on below the guitars playing the riff an octave lower...

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1406656753' post='2513495'] Well on the evidence of that, the only time the riff has any real clarity is when the guitars do the same thing an octave higher To my ears the low D has been reduced to a rhythmic clank rather than a proper note. [/quote] The point is to play that part correctly you need the open drop D. You may have played that part differently if you had been on the original session, but then again you aren't a multi-platinum selling artist! Thanks to Juliet for posting the video - I have just been asked to do a dep on Saturday and this is one of the tunes that I will have to dust off, so very timely...

I would say that the best analogy is probably that playing a relic’d bass is like making love to a beautiful woman – who has had a boob job! You might prefer the idea of the real thing but when it actually comes down to it, does it really matter??

Suffragette City – Summer of 77

I think that the wording is fine; just that they are asking for the world for what is basically what we over here would call a function band! Even if I was the slightest bit interested in the gig, I would be put off by their rather dogmatic insistence on non-smokers (and I gave up smoking 9 years ago)…

[quote name='Dr.Dave' timestamp='1406026903' post='2507565'] In 30 odd years of gigging I still get called a guitar player , asked why my guitar only has 4 strings , asked if I 'really need all that gear ' , told we're brilliant when we've had an off night , told we're sh*te when we were excellent , told the reason we won't do the Kings of f***ing Leon must be because we can't play it - I've seen excellent musicians ignored , piss taking jokers lauded as brilliant , guitarists judged as some kind of deity on how fast they can move their fingers even though they couldn't keep time with a Rolex , bands putting an interesting spin on a cover told they 'got it wrong' - how long need I go on. Your average punter hasn't got a clue mate. That's fair enough - I don't know how an engine works or how to fix a computer , each to their own etc. I'm happy to go out and entertain and be friendly towards punters - they're no better or worse a human being than I am ( and thankyou very much for the foreign holidays and the narrowboat) but as someone who has spent a lifetime striving to be a decent player and who has learned the sense in recognising good music and good playing even when its not to my taste or not my instrument I refuse - and will continue to refuse - to accept the musical opinions of a Friday night drinker as anything other than inferior to my own or those of my playing peers whos effort and experience based views I've come to regard as worthwhile and command my respect. [/quote] But I have been playing as long as you (and presumably in some of the same places seeing as we are not located that far apart) and generally punters are fine with me. That is not to say that there is not the odd idiot and I have told a few to f**k off over the years, but some of my best friends are people that I originally met because they happened at some point to have been fans of some silly little rock and roll band that I was playing in! Obviously I don’t take punters’ opinions about music too seriously in the same way that I wouldn’t expect a guy who repairs vacuum cleaners to listen to me telling him how to do his job! They can only know what they like, so then why would you expect them to understand the mechanics of how music works? Christ, have you seen the opinions of some of the supposed musicians who post on here! However, a lot of punters will often correctly recognise a good band over a poor one even if they don’t really understand the reasons why – something a lot of people who play in bands sometimes fail to give them credit for…

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1406019214' post='2507474'] There is plenty of work for the very good ones... so many towns across europe will have 'Blues festivals' but what I am saying is that 3 guys and no show generally aren't it. [/quote] Three pieces do just fine at those gigs if they are good enough. An awful lot of SRV/ Rory fans over there (and over here)! As far as what bands draw at what venues is just market forces at work. There are lots of 30/40 something rock fans who grew up on live music who don't bother with clubs anymore. Their idea of a good night out is a few beers and watching a band in a pub, hence the popularity of 80s rock bands in boozers. Likewise people will always want to dance and sing along to Commitments type bands or pop music from their formative years...

[quote name='Dr.Dave' timestamp='1406015648' post='2507428'] Be a musician - not a gear collector. Only copy others until you're competent enough not to - no heroes. Deal with mistakes , don't fear them. Remember that you can't break rules until you know them , but that rules are for the guidance of the wise and the obedience of the weak. Make sure that at every gig you do something to ensure the punters will remember you when they wake up next morning. Have other interests - life's too big to waste it all playing music. Play what you should , not what you can. When offered money to prostitute your artistry and compromise your values - always take it. When a landlord offers you free drinks - ask if you can come back tomorrow and have them then. Never pay too much respect your audience - if any at all. Don't join in this drummer or singer bashing nonsense - strive to play with good ones. Never play in Doncaster , in fact never go to Doncaster. If you can already play an instrument that allows you to have a rest mid song and stand around for a moment looking cool - stick with that !! [/quote] Apart for the disdain for the punters bit this is generally pretty good advice...

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1406014879' post='2507415'] A couple of things... no one will lose money playing a blues gig round here, it is popular..or the bands can work very cheap.. but apart from the gtr who has to be..and generally is, very good, he and the band can't make it interesting enough beyond 20 mins as he has done his beans on solos by then. Quite afew Gtrs have decent CV's... and it still counts for a boring gig, IMO. ... if only they added keys or SOMETHING.. There aren't bands like The Hamsters around.... [/quote] As you say, it is popular in your neck of the woods so there must be plenty of people who don't find it a boring gig, even if it is not to your taste! My main point is that it's nonsense to say that these type of bands will never get out of the pubs. You can play this type of music all over the world and there are loads of good gigs throughout Europe...

Local girl who is doing pretty well on the national blues circuit. I've known her since she first started playing guest spots at local gigs, when she was very young. Funnily enough I was once on the same bill as her in the Orkneys Islands, which was strange as she pretty much used to live around the corner...

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1405976581' post='2507228'] I get pretty pissed off that a 3 piece Blues bands turn up with a couple of amps..the gtr twiddles all night whilst the other two just do their thing...there is a nominal P.A which just about does the job and they walk away with £70 each...for playing crap blues ... Lights are things from another planet. So, yes minimum effort .... and you wont ever find them playing anything bar a pub.. No wonder..!! [/quote] Depends on how good they are mate… A couple of years ago I played in a trio that pretty much answers your description above and had a great time. We were constantly busy, playing blues clubs and quite a few main stages at festivals, etc all over the country (from the South east to the Orkneys) – not that many pubs in fact! The guitar player has another trio now playing clubs all over northern Europe. A pretty easy gig in that we had hardly any PA to lug around, the (few) rehearsals were easy with next to no harmony vocals to work out, etc. We just played our hearts out with no song every the same twice – real seat of the pants stuff but great fun! A three way split (along with loads of work) meant that we made a decent amount of cash, so what’s not to like? Of course there is no hiding place in a band like that so you have to be able to hack it. Obviously it all stands and falls on n the guitar player, who is usually the singer and whose name is generally on the door / posters! It also helps if they have the personality and the stagecraft to be a good front man as it is very much them who carries the show...

The thing about a forum like this is that you ask for advice you will receive plenty – some of it good (I am sure that everyone will agree that ‘marry a woman with small hands’ is particularly profound counsel for a girl starting out to make her way as a bass player) and some perhaps not so helpful… It may be’ old school’, but ‘locking into the bass drum’ is pretty good advice, especially if you are playing rock music and want to play with decent bands! Playing a note when the beater hits the bass drum will make the band sound bigger and tighter – qualities generally approved of by people who like to listen to / play in rock bands! Like all rules, it is made to be broken and as Discreet says above, it doesn’t have to be ‘every note on every kick drum hit’. However it is a pretty good starting point…

Won't Get Fooled Again...

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1405606208' post='2503576'] In fact, I'm amazed he lasted as long as he did. Fair play to him. [/quote] He didn't look in the best of health (to put it mildly) when I saw him about 20 years ago, so perhaps we should be glad that he carried on as long as he did! RIP Johnny - I shall dig out Rock & Roll Hoochie Koo later in tribute...

[quote name='grunge666' timestamp='1405515638' post='2502589'] For those unfamiliar with the work of Mr $immon$ - have a listen to Goin' Blind on Hotter Than Hell (1974) and more recently Russian Roulette from Sonic Boom (2009). He can play!! [/quote] [quote name='John Schoen' timestamp='1405540272' post='2502923'] I was waiting for her to tell him that she played bass on the first Kiss albums. [/quote] I was under the impression that it was Jean Beauvoir (and a few others) that played all the difficult bits on Kiss albums! Seriously, the video with Gene Simmons and Carole Kaye – two of the nicest, down to earth and modest people in showbusiness. Good looking as well…! We can all learn an important lesson in humility from both of them…

[quote name='sybass6' timestamp='1404862955' post='2496574'] The problem with TAB is that there is no musical information or content contained in it... TAB will not help you develop as a bass player and certainly won't help you musically... [/quote] I don’t agree with these statements at all… After struggling for a while to get to grips with the harmonics on Portrait of Tracy, I found a remarkably accurate TAB online. Now, I would suggest that you would have to be a pretty accomplished reader to sight read a standard notation transcription of PoT. Even if I had managed to find my way through all the ledger lines, I still would not have known that the high D harmonic is just in front of the 3rd fret on he G string, yet alone that the Eb is an artificial harmonic played at the 6th fret whilst fretting the B at the second fret of the A string. But I do now because I managed to find a decent TAB…! The upshot of this is that now I can play a passable version of Jaco’s signature piece and in the process have learnt a load of stuff about harmonics, some of which I have incorporated into my playing. So how can you say that that there is no musical information or content contained in TAB? Surely it just shows you how to play a piece (just like notation) and what you get out of it depends on your understanding of music and how you apply that to interpret the transcription??

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1404981452' post='2497438'] Isn't this really a matter of "horses for courses" ? If you book [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Pino, Billy Sheehan or Jeff Beck, or any other leading bass player, you're booking them for what they will bring to the party and add to the music. This will also be true in a lot of band situations. So in this case no reading is required. I guess in this situation what gets to be the bass part will be what comes out of a jam session.[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]If you're doing a theatre pit gig you will probably need to read. [/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]TABs are all very well, but if a pianist is writing the score for a more serious piece of music and wants to write a bass part for you he will either have to learn the bass fretboard to write the TABS for you, or you will have to learn to read music.[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Speaking for myself, I learned to read and play from a score because I was reading the TABs in books and thinking "this is playing by numbers", it wasn't doing anything to help me learn the notes on the FB. I'm not sure what it was doing to improve my knowledge. So learning to read has got me more into understanding the chords being used and the logic and patterns. But I guess that's not everyone's cup of tea.[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]The TAB can be useful as a recommendation to play the score on certain part of the neck to get better accessibility. But then I've also seen books where the TAB has you running all over the neck when I can see there's an easier way to play it.[/font][/color] [/quote] Excellent post

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1404948641' post='2497322'] I've just got back from a rehearsal with my function band in London. We rehearse at the guitarists home, he's got his garage converted into a studio. I also recorded some bass for a couple of his songs. This took maybe 30 minutes, he'd composed the bass parts in logic, then just printed out the score for me to play. Nice and simple, no faffing about having to work out what he'd played. I just played what was on the score, then made a couple of suggestions that I thought might be nice. [/quote] That's great and the main reason for learning to read. If someone wants to work that way they are always likelyto give you a call rather than me. Of course the likes of Pino, Billy Sheehan and Jeff Beck seem to manage without reading but still... However, in 35 years I have never once been in the position where someone has produced a score in that way. If I had of done a few times I might have learnt properly. I have to say that I have played with a few guys who have toured as part of backing bands for well known singers and they don't seem to have had scores presented to them either. That is not to say that it doesn't on some gigs! Nether the less, it still doesn't mean that you should look down on tab as a way of showing people who don't read the dots how to play a particular piece of music!

[quote name='sybass6' timestamp='1404943160' post='2497292'] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]The problem with TAB is that there is no musical information or content contained in it. When you're learning your bass you need to associate your neck in pitches (notes) first, this is how we improve as musicians. Not by associating it with numbers. TAB does not allow us to do this. It stops us from learning music because TAB isn't music it's simply a numbers system developed for people who don't know how to read. In my opinion, and that's all this is, TAB will not help you develop as a bass player and certainly won't help you musically. If you want to learn a piece of music without reading the notation then use your ears. That's far more beneficial.[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Our aim is to develop our bass playing and musicianship at the same time. Developing both aspects in tandem. Learn to read, improve your ear. Leave TAB alone. Some people on Facebook etc have put forward the argument saying "What about the Nashville Number System, that's numbers"......But the difference is that the Nashville system is used by studio musicians for ease of transposition and is fast to write down on sessions that have a fast turn over. You need to know music and your harmonised scale to use and read it. TAB you don't. You don't find it in any professional musical situation whatsoever.......Why does it exist then in music education?[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Sorry for rambling on.[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Best regards.[/font][/color] [/quote] As I mentioned above, my understanding is that tab actually predates standard notation. A transcription simply shows you what notes to play, be it tab or notation. It has nothing to do with musicianship or learning music theory. My sister-in-law has been having piano lessons for 20 years and can sight read and play to an intermediate level. When she saw one of my bands she asked where we got the score for all the songs we played. When I chuckled and said that it didn’t work that way she was amazed, “how do you know what to play if you don’t have sheet music”?? She couldn’t work out a simple harmony part and I doubt that she would know what a mode is but she can sight read! Regardless of whether you prefer tab or notation, ear is obviously king and there is no substitute for having a working knowledge of music theory. Notation has several advantages over tab in that it does provide more rhythmic information and is obviously prevalent in certain professional situations. When someone writes out a bass part it might be played on a bass guitar or it could be played on a synth or even a tuba! However, as far as I am concerned tab has its uses for demonstrating in simple terms how to play a piece of music on a stringed instrument. A good friend of mine has learnt to read music, despite never needing to do so before in his (professional) music career. He has done this so that he can make a living giving bass lessons, teaching youngsters how to read music so that they can pass music exams. Many of these kids will go on to play in bands where they will never need to read music, unless they decide to start giving bass lessons…

This old chestnut again! Why turn your nose up at tab? It can be a useful shortcut and has been around longer than notation (for medieval lutes, etc). The problem is with the quality of the transcribing, which applies just as much to notation (just ask any pit player)! Surely both have their strengths and weaknesses – I would imagine that ‘Eruption’ written out in notation would be pretty meaningless but a decent tab might just show you how to play it! At times I feel that I would be a better all-round musician if I could read better. I am sure that I would have learnt properly if I lived in the States where there seem to be a greater variety of gigs around, or if I had a great yearning to play in a pit or had any interest in playing jazz gigs. However, in nearly 35 years of gigging and playing in bands I have never been in a musical situation where reading would have been an advantage! And this is despite the fact that many of the people I have played with are proficient readers…

[quote name='Damonjames' timestamp='1404504239' post='2493378'] Just for the record, I wasn't after a 1k bass that can do everything! I was more after opinions on a fender jazz/or active vs the like of the boutique "super jazz" basses that are about, or builders who use the wood equivalent of baby seal eyes to build their basses out if on account of their "exceptional" tone quality. [/quote] I have two jazz basses – one is an American Std that I bought s/h for £650 (although I spent another £350 to put in an active circuit, new pickups & bridge) and the other is a ‘boutique super jazz’ bass that cost me £1,600 (s/h of course). Both sound and look great, but the super jazz is lighter and plays much better – not all basses are created equal and there is a reason why some are more expensive than others! Some people here may not like that but it is true. In answer to the OP, I would suggest that £700 is about the optimal amount for a quality 4 string bass that you could use in pretty much any band setting, i.e. s/h stingray or Am Std Fender…