Shockwave

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1346074236' post='1784859'] If a transaction doesn't complete, because one party say, doesn't actually send the goods, that is something I'm going to want to know about. [/quote] If someone has paid money for something, that counts as a transaction. So if the goods didn't arrive then bad feedback can be left.

[quote name='simon1964' timestamp='1346070485' post='1784789'] With the exception of non-delivery, these are surely all more subjective (and therefore more likely to lead to disputes as to whether negative feedback is justified) than someone backing out of a transaction? [/quote] Which we deal with already and 99% in private with PMs. However considering practically every advert has time wasters, the sheer weight of complaints and bad feedback towards time wasters would create way more work and disputes. Time wasting happens everyday, it's why people just accept it as part and parcel of advertising in classified sections. I am on the receiving on end of as much time wasting as anybody else. I can deal with it. Members are asking us for a solution, but I don't think we can provide one that is fair for everyone. Its a problem without a true 100% fair solution. [b]I would rather have to deal with time wasters, then see good honest members being left bad feedback because of a simple mistake, misunderstanding or bad accident.[/b]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1346070074' post='1784778'] Do you allow feedback for transactions outside of BC? because transactions within BC have got evidence of their existence. guess the only thing that wouldn't be on bc would be affiliate discounts, and that really isn't much to do with BC, you are just ragging on a business after getting a discount. [/quote] We have banned people in the past for doing bad deals on other sites and we had proof of it occurring but this has been sortedin PMs as it is a very rare occurrence. Some new members have posted in off topic about a bad deal done with a BC member outside of BC, however we have always deleted them and asked them to PM us about it because we don't know if it is true or false statement. If it turns out to be a true then we question the BC member and possibly ban them if we have reasonable proof. Transactions can occur on BC between BC members without an advert being put up. Even if there was a classified ad, M1 could just claim that a deal had been agreed on, but M2 pulled out. M1 leaves bad feedback, even though there was no actual contact in the first place. We don't allow "Public" Feedback from deals done on other sites. However we will take it into account privately and possibly ban there account so our members dont have to deal with them. Opening up public feedback for time wasters and non transactions opens up the ability for users to abuse that system.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1346069823' post='1784772'] I PM block anyone who makes stupid lowballs, which sort of sorts that, but turns out PM blocking doesn't work like I thought it did. [/quote] That is a forum software issue like we mentioned to you before, there is nothing we can do about it.

Also imagine a scenario where feedback can be left for non transactions. [i]"M1 hates M2 for an unspecified reason. He posts in the feedback thread claiming that a deal fell through (Even though M2 wasn't selling or buying anything in the first place). Moderators and members have no proof that a deal had occurred or not. M1 could be just making something up just to make M2 seem like a bad seller/buyer. Yet the feedback still stands because we allow feedback for non transactions."[/i] Yes M2 can reply to the feedback stating it is not true. But it is still a black mark on an otherwise clean record and that is not fair on M2.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1346068894' post='1784756'] Yeah, that's what I'm after, means I can see who are idiots I don't want to deal with, the whole point of feedback. Restricting it to niceties just gives a false reflection of reality and renders it all a bit pointless. [/quote] You missed the "Increase in moderator intervention part". Moderators are not paid and subsequently we have always stated that we do not bear any responsibility on deals that may or may not have occurred. Though we do try to help and act as an intermediary as much as we can. For especially bad behavior, you can report it to us, we have an internal warning system we use. Though we have never banned anyone for time wasting alone, we have banned people who seriously screw over people with transactions and non transactions, especially If we feel they are not benefiting the community. So to reiterate. I would rather not implement a system for public feedback of time wasters as it can open up the feedback forums to abuse. However we can deal with them in private which can result in a ban so they would no longer be able to waste your time. If you feel you are getting hard done by in a deal please report it to us. If they have multiple reports against them then we will ban them. That is the best I can offer at the moment.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1346068061' post='1784725'] Feedback goes two ways, if someone is chucking about unwarranted negs, and generally acting like a tit, I'm happy to know that and not deal with them. Definitely a disservice to restrict feedback that is of interest to potential traders. Even if they can't put it into public, they can still be a nutpain not in public, and that is relevant to people anticipating dealing with them in future. [/quote] Opening up the feedback forum for non transactions/time-wasting will cause slanging matches, poor/non valid reasons for bad feedback and an large increase in moderator intervention. If there was a system we could put in place where genuine time wasters were found to pull out of a deal for a non genuine reason (And we could 100% verify it) then I would like to hear it.

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1346067730' post='1784718'] So basically, negative feedback is hardly ever going to be acceptable for "deals" that are done face to face because when the item in question is examined it will either be fine (so the transaction happens) or something will happen such that one party will pull out of the "deal" and thus no transaction would have occurred, so negative feedback is not allowed. While I accept there may be 'force majeure' reasons for the "deal" failing, it would be very easy for the affected member to state that in reply to any negative feedback, in which case other BCers could form their own opinions. But there are many other reasons why the "deal" could fall through, resulting in no transaction, that would, IMHO be worthy of negative feedback. For example, after arranging to meet up to do the "deal" . . . . - seller doesn't turn up - no transaction - buyer doesn't turn up - no transaction - item is not as described, so buyer pulls out - no transaction. - buyer tries to drop the previously agreed price, so seller drops out - no transaction - seller tries to increase the price, so buyer drops out - no transaction . . . all examples of no transaction because of poor behaviour from one party or the other, which would all remain unknown due to the current feedback rules. [/quote] If either the seller or buyer does not turn up, and money is involved with travel costs that's fine. But if they don't turn up for a genuinely good reason such as a death in the family, or financial emergency It would be unfair to leave bad feedback because of that. If your meeting up and the item is not described and you incur costs then yes, Bad feedback can be left. However mistakes can be made, dings can be missed in the description by accident, truss rods could be seized without knowing etc maybe the buyer though it was a particular shade of colour but when they saw it in real life it wasn't quite right. As to haggling, that is an institution. It is why I put "Firm" on all of my prices if I don't want any haggling and remind buyers that I will not haggle at any stage. If the seller increases the price etc on meetup (Which I have never heard of happening) or if you have other problems, pm a mod and we will try to solve this in private. In very rare occasions we have allowed bad feedback where a transaction has not technically occurred for grave infractions or deals gone sour and that's the best I can give you at the moment. I will however take this time to remind everyone though that Basschat holds no responsibility for any transactions that have occurred or deals gone sour.

[quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1346065538' post='1784665'] I did read the whole thread and yes I read the part about money being spent but what I was pointing out (unsuccessfully it would seem) was that the other party could theoretically have equally 'claimed' that you wasted his time and money (I've no doubt he had to drive to the meet). I'm not wishing to get into a debate on your transaction, I am simply trying to highlight the fact that in ANY transaction there are two sides to a story and it is an almost impossible task to simply say that there is a black and white line between what constitutes a transaction/expenditure of money that would allow feedback and what doesn't.[/quote] My Mrs went to meet him at his hometown station. So no, he did not have to pay for travel (Or at best a small amount for petrol unless he walked) I had proof that we had spent a lot of money getting there and had a watertight advert you should look at it if you haven't.) Then he started sending harassing voice mails and texts to both our numbers. So bad that we had to get the police involved. I think it was totally deserved bad feedback. [quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1346065538' post='1784665'] I have to confess that I find it slightly arrogant that just because you helped write the guidelines that you feel that they must be 'absolute' and that they can't be simply discussed or even challenged. It is (I would have thought) in the best interest of any community's interest to refine and consider such matters. Though I do know that at the end of the day it is ultimately up to the person who owns the rights to Basschat to decide and adjudicate on these guidelines and that is fine and dandy but I'd like to hope that it could be seen that open debate on such matters is healthy. Yes/No? [/quote] Debating about the topic is fine and I haven't prevented it from happening (I haven't closed the thread or made any thread edits apart from moving it to the correct sub forum), but I haven't heard any decent suggestions that are practical, or workable and I have given valid reasons as to why they wouldn't work. Please see this post I made from earlier. [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/185225-under-what-circumstances-would-you-leave-negative-feedback/page__view__findpost__p__1784301"]http://basschat.co.u...ost__p__1784301[/url] [quote name='Shockwave' timestamp='1346022110' post='1784301'] Either way, if anyone can think of a better/more feasible policy then I would like to hear it. Pm me with your suggestions. [/quote] Trust me I more then anyone would love to be able to tell who is a serial time waster/tyre kicker. But in the interests of preventing witch hunts or slandering people who had genuinely good reasons for pulling out we cannot allow feedback where a transaction has not occurred. If someone had a system where they could weed out genuinely good reasons from bad reasons why people pull out of deals, I would like to hear about it. But I don't think it is possible. [b]What I WOULD encourage people, is to think before contacting a seller/buyer. [/b] [b]Have you got the funds? Do you have something to trade and would be 100% happy to go through with it? Are there any forseeable big changes coming in your life soon that may prevent this from happening? Do you really need/want the item in question? [/b] [b]If you are unsure that you want the item 100% LET THE OTHER PARTY KNOW IN THE FIRST MESSAGE. So all parties know that a deal may not actually occur and everyone is on the same page. [/b]

[quote name='billyapple' timestamp='1346065223' post='1784655'] You should have never sent your wife to do the trade. If you weren't available yourself, you should have re-arranged. As you say, she does not know about the goods, and you don't know who you are sending her to meet. [/quote] She is quite capable of looking after herself and any trade is done in a very public place. She knew the bass she was supposed to be trading for and the right questions to ask. Shes happy to do it for me and to be honest me having someone else to do the trade on my behalf has very little to do with bad feedback.

[quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1346059175' post='1784505'] Playing Devil's Advocate... Aren't you guilty here of doing exactly what you are arguing to stop? The potential buyer of your bass will no doubt have has his view of the transaction and he may well have felt that he was being pressured into buying a bass that wasn't as described (I stress I am simply offering an 'alternative' view of the transaction), folk might well think 'what kind of bloke sends his wife to do a deal with a stranger on a bass'! He could well be within his rights to leave you negative feedback as it is your word against his that the bass was as described... but a transaction wasn't concluded because he felt that the bass was misrepresented. Yes/No? PLEASE understand I am not casting aspersions, simply pointing out that it 'could' be (mis)construed that you may have misused the feedback system in the way that you are saying it shouldn't be used OR if honest open feedback had been left by both parties then individuals could make there own mind up. Oh and I have no axe to grind nor do I know or have any affinity to persons involved in any transaction! ...just saying! [/quote] Because money had already been spent in travel costs and I had proof of those costs (£40). Which as I mentioned before is a valid reason for leaving bad feedback. I have already stated that this is a valid reason [b][i]multiple[/i][/b] times in this thread. The guy already knew my Mrs would be doing the trade on my behalf and he had no problem with that. As I said, I posted multiple photos of the bass of all of the wear and tear and a very in depth description. In fact you can read that ad here. [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/76324-fsft-pedulla-mvp5-last-chance-final-reduction-to-l800/page__p__761838__hl__pedulla%20mvp5__fromsearch__1#entry761838"]http://basschat.co.u...__1#entry761838[/url]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1346020536' post='1784282'] Well, I wouldn't always agree with that. If there's good reason for the failure to complete which is communicated (even if it is a lie, which probably couldn't be known) then I wouldn't want to leave negative feedback. As Shockwave says, for example, 'death in the family'. I completely agree that deals can, quite reasonably, fall through - e.g. the death in the family - and so should never result in negative feedback but I didn't think those were the kind of cases that were being discussed. I thought we were discussing people who had 'bid' and in fact agreed a deal, not those merely watching. But, anyway, Basschat has spoken. [/quote] Just using examples of similar but not quite the same deals/transactions. Either way, if anyone can think of a better/more feasible policy then I would like to hear it. Pm me with your suggestions.

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1346017837' post='1784253'] I've got news for you [/quote] Bugger, I didn't agree to that! Makes sense I guess. [quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1346017656' post='1784246'] Wasn't there a story here about some buyer? Got the seller to pick him up from the station, tried the item, lovely stuff, got the seller to drive him to an ATM to get the cash, went back to the seller's house and then said "Nah! Changed my mind." Or was I dreaming? [/quote] One time, a guy agreed to trade a bass and was really enthusiastic, I wasn't available to do the deal so I sent the Mrs out on a long train journey to do the deal. Guy turns up and basically lays into the bass and says it's not as described even though I provided over 30 photos of the bass and an in-depth description. He took advantage of my Mrs ignorance over the actual advert and refused a trade. I left bad feedback as it cost me a lot of money and care to get the Mrs there and make it up to her. I left bad feedback, he started harassing me and sent threatening text messages to me and the Mrs. He got banned eventually and he stopped contacting me. Frightening experience, absolute loon.

[quote name='simon1964' timestamp='1346016839' post='1784230'] So when can we leave negative feedback? [/quote] When a transaction has occurred. Feedback is mostly for if a item was not as described, not delivered, late in being shipped or bad attitude of seller/buyer. The only other reason would be if someone has outlay-ed money to acquire an item (in the form of courier or travel costs) but the other party pulled out. Even then mods need proof of receipt that money was spent and all avenues from both parties have been exhausted to satisfy the aggrieved party before bad feedback can be left. [quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1346016898' post='1784232'] I'm sure everybody feels differently but the Feedback mod hath spoken. His gaff, his rules. If people don't like that, they can always use eBay and leave extra-transactional feedback there. Oh, except they can't. [/quote] Actually I am not the feedback mod. Though I have dealt with these disputes as classified mod.

[quote name='simon1964' timestamp='1346016140' post='1784213'] Shockwave - I take your point, but I've bought and sold loads of stuff on Basschat, and if someone had a history of pulling out of deals then personally I would like to know. [/quote] Tough My system is the lesser of two evils. You cannot prove that they had a genuine reason for pulling out and they cant prove they had a genuine reason for pulling out. Your suggestion would basically turn things into a "Guilty until proven innocent" scenario. When selling my Pedulla, I lost £175 due to a guy pulling out after I had booked a courier and he lied like a dog to get out of the deal (Claimed after he had the bass packed for shipping that he used it at a gig and sustained damage and couldnt trade, then he posted another sale thread up a month after with no damage). I left bad feedback as I could prove the shipping transaction occurred, but I only left the feedback after a month of E-mailing him with no reply for him to rectify the situation and E-mailing talkbasses admins and discussing it with them. I gave the benefit of the doubt until it becomes obvious. I also lost lots of time and money trying to do a deal with the Pedulla and a Pink P-J bass. But I didn't leave bad feedback. Trust me, I know where you are coming from and I have been mucked around more then anyone on here (probably). But I will not allow a witch hunt.

Mans a true gent! Bought my pink bass and had a long chat about various things. Highly recommend!

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1346015079' post='1784192'] I agree with ET. If a deal is agreed and then one party pulls out such that the deal falls though then I'd say that would warrant feedback even though a deal was never actually completed. [/quote] As I said in my post above. No way would I ever allow a system that allowed people to bad mouth one party, because it is possible that a death in the family or something genuinely awful has occurred which means they couldn't complete the deal. I realize that this is not always the case, and people may lie about why they pulled out. But that's their moral and ethical issue and they have to live with that. Shame on them if they invent excuses. However we cannot prove if whatever happened to them was genuine or not so we cannot implement bad feedback when no transaction has occurred. There is a reason why sellers on eBay cant leave feedback for watchers of items that never bid, Imagine the chaos! [quote name='Shockwave' timestamp='1346012640' post='1784153'] Sorry guys. If no transaction has taken place, no feedback can be left. A deal is not done until it is done. Timewasting happens and It has happened to me many times at the cost of selling a bass. Deal with it, its part of using internet classifieds. [/quote] To clarify my comment above. Yes you should be able to leave bad feedback if you have spent money to try and do a deal, such as travel or a courier that was never used. However you need to talk to the seller/buyer first for a resolution before you leave feedback and provide us with proof of purchase of travel/courier.

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1346014046' post='1784175'] OK, that's a fair point. But just to clarify, what if, for example, I do a clear deal to meet up to exchange item and cash and the other party doesn't bother to turn up, without reason or explanation. Would you still say 'A deal is not done until it is done'?. I appreciate fully that there isn't much if anything that could be done in a case like that but it seems to me exactly what feedback is about. [/quote] If money has been spent in the effort of doing a deal which can be proven such as a scan of a receipt for shipping or train stub. Then you can give feedback. [quote name='TheGreek' timestamp='1346013693' post='1784167'] If people only leave positive feedback what is the point of leaving feedback at all??? Doesn't this devalue/discredit the positive feedback we all leave?? Surely if somebody leads you to believe they're going to do a deal and you turn down other offers because of this why shouldn't you want to let others know about this..?? [/quote] Anyone can leave bad feedback. But only if a deal has been done. Otherwise abuse of the feedback system can occur. Meanings of private messages or E-mails can be mistaken, people can have a genuine issue meaning they cant buy. Be practical no way would I ever allow a feedback system that allowed people to give bad feedback to someone who suffered a death in the family or lost their job and had to pull out of a deal. However because a seller cant prove if a potential buyer couldn't go through with a deal because of some reason genuine or not, we cannot allow feedback to be left unless a transaction has occurred where money or basses have changed hands. Also if particular forum members have personal problems with each other, anyone can leave bad feedback even though no deal was ever in the works in the first place. You get Tyre kickers in any classifieds section in any kind of media, implementing a feedback system where you could give feedback for transactions that never occurred would cause huge friction in the community and lots of work for the mods acting as intermediary's. This has been moved to site issues.

Sorry guys. If no transaction has taken place, no feedback can be left. A deal is not done until it is done. Timewasting happens and It has happened to me many times at the cost of selling a bass. Deal with it, its part of using internet classifieds.

[quote name='MacDaddy' timestamp='1345557972' post='1778806'] Hey Billy, I'd quite like to AB that with my Blitz. [/quote] I want my blitz back! Having gotten used to the RD I dont think I gave the hamer a decent shot!

[color=#282828][font=helvetica,arial,sans-serif]1. Hamster - Fender Hotrod P/J, Bareface Compact, Auralex Gramma Pad, SFX Thumpinator; either Markbass 800 Tube or Ampeg PF500 Portaflex[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica,arial,sans-serif]2. BigBeatNut - Rob Allen Deep 5, Status Electro, Lakland 55-02 Fretless, Markbass CMD121P, a selection of SFX micro pedals[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica,arial,sans-serif]3. Stingray5 - Musicman StingRay5 and Stingray fretless, Tune TWB-6, Trace Elliot BLX-80 combo, Boss GT-6B fx, Gramma Pad, (+ raffle bits & freebies).[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica,arial,sans-serif]4 OBBM - undecided on basses but Schroeder cab(s) and mini-rack Mk2 (+raffle bits)[/font][/color] [i]5. Charic (tentative) - ACG Finn 4 (Drop C tuning), Yamaha RBX6JM, Modded Fender MIM, TC RH450, 2 x TC RS210, Line6 DL4 (delay pedal), Behringer Chorus Pedal[/i] [color=#282828][font=helvetica,arial,sans-serif]6. Happy Jack - Ampeg Baby Bass and (just for OBBM) at last I'll bring along a Hofner Verithin. If there's enough (any) interest, I could also bring along a Fishman Fusion pedal plus a rig to play through.[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica,arial,sans-serif]7. Macdaddy - custom shuker or custom Iceni Zoot or Hamer Blitz + raffle bits [/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica,arial,sans-serif]8. Billyapple - Gibson Thunderbird, Un-Finished Wishbass Lobe, Matamp GT200 Head, Matamp 212 Cab, DHA VT1 Eq[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica,arial,sans-serif]9. Walman - ([i]assuming it'll all fit in the smaller car I got last year as I was cutting down on gear [/i][/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica,arial,sans-serif]) Wal Pro1/Custom hybrid, 2 x G&L L2500 US, Tanglewater ClassicJ, Roland PK5 bass pedals w DSI MoPho synth, GenzBenz Streamliner 6, BF Super12T - alternatively a poll on which to bring may be required[/font][/color] 10. OliverBlackman- going to bring the Tokai as it seems in a recent thread not many have experienced the 80's Jazz sounds. 11. Shockwave - Gibson RD and Gibson Grabber or Fender P-J Antigua.

Shall we start a new thread with confirmed/unconfirmed people?