Ou7shined

When I wanted to explore caps and their value vs tone, rather than Google the theory or rely on hearsay I took these bad boys... ... then mocked up this.... [size=5][b]The result was astonishing![/b][/size].... well actually it wasn't. Forgetting all the hyperbole and guff, when you think about it, a cap's job is simply to define a shelf at which the high frequencies are sent to earth. Changing the value simply selected different shelf points at which the highs were dumped. Wired directly to the jack it was like a rubbish tone control. Yes it functioned fundamentally different from a standard tone control but what you hear switching through the variations is pretty much the same only staggered. What's more when faded in and out with an actual tone control (not seen in this ^ early mock up) I now had countless variations on each individual setting and multiple ways of achieving the exact same tone. Eureka! Of course you guys don't have to take my word on it. If you wanna believe that a cap can "give mids" or "add warmth" (and that old school caps are the dogs while old school pots are pants) or whatever then don't let me spoil a good read.

[quote name='Damonjames' timestamp='1363989763' post='2020768'] At the risk of sounding ignorant, if the value of vol pots makes no difference, why does a. Mexican fender jazz have 250k and a USA fender jazz have 500k? Surely the cost between the two is negligible. I thought it was part of making the USA fenders sound better and hence justify the price tag. I know mex pickups tend to be a little hotter than their us counterparts, but are still essentially the same design. I made some mods to my Mexican jazz including gotoh bridge, dimarzio j pickups and installing 500k pots, so its gard yo know which contributed more but it destroys the previous setup, it's sounds awesome! [/quote] Ok going deeper into the subject matter, if you put x amount of components in line with your signal you will affect the outcome. In a passive circuit placing a resistor between the signal and earth will inevitably dissipate a degree of original top end tone. Pups are (among other things) resistors and basically you should match your vol pot to the resistance of your circuit and calculate an overall load so as to not over do the natural loss. There are outdated rules of thumb which match 500s with buckers and 250s with single coils. But as you probably realise those rules really are silly now when you bring into the equation the wide choice of pups of differing values and circuits even more wildly so ie. HS or SSH or series/parallel and all the possible variables in switching between them all. In short they do make a tiny tiny difference but as everyone in the world gets by with one of two choices no matter the circuit (even different manufacturers use different values in very similar circuits) how much of a difference is a difference? ................... Quite big according to some people.

Been biting my tongue for a couple of years over this but finally a bit of sense on the subject... and from a mod no less I think people get confused with pots on amps for example where you turn them and electronic stuff happens... sadly this confusion is open to exploitation. In a passive guitar circuit all your pots do is decide how much original signal is sent off to earth (where it so desperately wants to go). Imagine a cop directing traffic on a busy 3 lane road. In order to lessen congestion at the other end he diverts one lane of traffic off the main route onto an alternate route. The resulting [b]volume [/b]of traffic at the end of the main route is less but the "cr@pness" of the vehicles hasn't changed. In the case of the tone control, a cap sets a relatively arbitrary (yet fixed) cut-off point at which the upper frequencies are bled off (defined by the amount of twiddle on your pot of course). Turning the tone control full - in our traffic analogy you could say that a second member of our fine traffic constabulary waiting a little further down our two remaining busy lanes redirects all cars beow a certain engine capacity down a second alternate route while letting all other traffic pass unhindered. The volume of traffic at the end of the main road is unchanged but now there are no buzzy little puddle jumpers. Yes an expensive pot may survive more twiddles and will give max and min values with a better degree of accuracy than a cheapy... but who's to say that 250k is bang on the R value you need anyway? What if 273.66k produced a nicer sweep for your particular pups/circuit? Oh hang on you don't get them. "Ach! Just hoy in a 250 they are easy to source and are close enough to what we want eh." Hmmm suddenly accuracy isn't an issue. Unfortunately there are those out there who perpetuate the myth that expensive pots, fat old looking or oily caps (which ironically are less accurate than modern design ones) and "premium" wire (usually defined by the bit you see (its insulated covering) rather than it's actual conductive properties) can add something to your sound. PASSIVE CIRCUITS ARE ALL ABOUT WHAT IS TAKEN AWAY FOLKS. So in actual fact, if you wanted 100% of your tone's purest passive yumminess you'd be better off ripping everything out and going direct to the jack. But that's not entirely practical and maybe just a wee bit too anal... although you've gotta love the beautiful simplicity of a vol only circuit. Nice pots are great and all (it's all I use) but it would be better to choose them simply because you want to and not because someone has told you they will make anything sound better. /goes back to it's lair for another year

Sold Dave a pedal. Top bloke to deal with. Quick payment with no fuss. Recommended!

Bought a pedal off Chris. All as sweet as a nut. Recommended.

Thank you for my G&L L-1000 and also for designing my Stingray man.

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1344602871' post='1766960'] L1000 - one of the best basses ever designed - fact! [/quote] + a gazillion

[quote name='neepheid' timestamp='1344599378' post='1766885'] ... I'd be all over that particular finish combination. And the bass as a whole? There's something reassuringly industrial about it. It isn't pretty, but it will sure as hell get the job done. [/quote] I think I'd have to agree there man. Looking at this on my phone in bright sunlight it looks to be black... combined with the black crinkle it seems to be doing a good job of disguising most of it's misgivings.

[quote name='neepheid' timestamp='1344597916' post='1766861'] Hey man, you know that if I had a few spare hundred sloshing about the place then it'd be an El Toro I'd be after, and they're eye-gougers too. [/quote] And they're arguably the fuglyest bass they ever put out.

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344596475' post='1766834'] The penny hasn't dropped as there is no penny to drop I just couldn't be arsed. It's simple. The bass is an electrical circuit with a generator and an output. Just like ANY electrical circuit what you put in the middle makes a difference. Saying wire doesn't make any difference is saying their is no difference in wire. Which is bullshit, or should I phone Shorts and say I have some three core going cheap they could put into their missiles because it does the same job as the stuff they are using? You put up a link to a video that says most changes are percieved changes not real changes. So if you roll back your 250K tone to 125K is that a real change or a perceived one. I would presume real. If I put a pot that is out of spec by the same amount how come it apparently makes no difference. After all thats what I have been told on this thread. So why does 125k one way make a difference but not the other? And yet I have a guy that has access to apparatus who swears by using "proper" stuff but I guess he swears by the "proper" stuff just for the hell of it. He has access to testing gear Including gear that there is that few of in the UK he gets paid to go to Scotland to use it and had to go to America for training. Doing this stuff for decades. He'll turn down quite lucrative homers if the customer wants to supply the parts and he's not making money on them he sells the parts at cost. Just because he won't have his name attached to something "Substandard", Even though you or I looking in couldn't tell the difference. Am I supposed to say see that stuff your paying a fortune for, it doesn't matter? Another guy who tells me on a test rig they can tell the difference with wire feeding an injector. A system with much higher voltage and ampage. That repairing an ECU with cheap resistors affects the output to a measurable degree. All things they tested in real time. Turning around to these guys and saying components don't matter is like telling Ron Dennis not to bother polishing his cars it doesn't make them faster. Basically what you are telling me is . One of the most respected guys in his field worldwide at the time (He has since Retired) and an electrician for almost thirty years working day in and day out on this stuff either are liars or know nothing. I actually find that quite offensive. But then we all know each other from a world were every little detail matters. and nothing is left to chance. [/quote] Dude, you appear to be losing the plot. Seriously, go back and read over the thread from the start as what you have just said has been dealt with over and over... also please note that not one person has said anything against your mates, in fact I have confirmed on a couple of occasions that what they have conveyed to you is correct... it's just that it has little bearing on this topic. It's you yourself who is confusing matters. Wow my 1st post here was good call alright.

[quote name='neepheid' timestamp='1344594323' post='1766789'] I submit that the latter G&L headstock is vastly superior to previous efforts. To me, the old ones look like prototypes or even afterthoughts. A blob with tuner holes in it. All just my opinion, of course. And if you don't like the spike then you can always cut it off and you'll end up with something akin to an early SB-2 headstock, if that's your bag I've said too much - bye! [/quote] As the lucky owner of one of the first G&L basses ever made, I have to say Matt you are wrong wrong wrong and for this act of heracy I demand that you relinquish your G&L fanciers membership pin forthwith. Also I think I know you and your whacky bass collection well enough to know that if you'd scored an old L-2000E instead of a modern one that you'd be lovin' and not hatin'. I'm personally not a big fan of the eye-gouger headstock but it wouldn't seriously put me off a great sounding bass... tone before looks and all that.

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344588678' post='1766662'] The whole thing is a very basic electrical system. Put anything in the system between the generator (Pups) and the out put (speaker ) and it affects the current. It's the current that gets turned into the sound. There is nothing audio about it between the pups and the speaker. In practical terms the bass is a generator and your speaker is a motor. Obviously the bass on it's own is not enough so your amp increases the current from the bass. [/quote] You've been reading too much of Mark D Philips' literature. It's starting to rub off on you mate. [quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344588678' post='1766662'] EVERYTHING in an electrical system has an affect, no matter how small. Because we are talking about minute currents it doesn't take much to change it before it hits the amp. If you put in crappy wire with a higher resistance it will have an affect. Saying otherwise is saying that wire has no affect of electric. [/quote] That's true... but if, as was told you by an expert on here not long ago, super accurate apparatus can hardly register it then what chance have our ears. And you yourself said you have cloth ears, so why bother.

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344587771' post='1766650']... Not a trap. If you can hear a 250K pot rolled off half way which is 125K from full open why are you saying people can't hear the difference between a true 500K pot and one whos actual value is 125K more. Saying it's nothing more than the brain wishing to hear something. When you roll your 250K pot back half way are you just hearing what you think you should hear. After all you are changing the resistance by the same amount... [/quote] Mate I never said anything of the sort at any time in this thread. I think you're getting yourself in mucking fuddle trying to make this whole thing more complex than it actually is. Presumably because you've not quoted any of the rest of what I said in my last post, the penny has dropped. Now all you have to do is apply that same knowledge to the tone pot. Only this time there is a capacitor there and rather than letting all of the signal being lost to earth as you saw in the vol pot, the cap (at a point defined by it's value) selects a frequency limit that the audio signal from the pups is split at. And like before your pot acts as a valve varying how much of that high frequency disappears to earth. The difference we hear has been labeled "tone". It's not imaginary or whatever words you are trying to put into my mouth, it is still very much your original signal only now some higher frequencies have been physically removed (or allowed to take the path of least resistance - oh no there's that word again ) . How could you not hear it?

[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' timestamp='1344582332' post='1766598'] .... Seriously, though, consider other uses of audio components. Expensive bits of hifi amps? Volume pots, transformers and "power" capacitors. I bet serious mixing desk s don't compromise on the quality of their faders... [/quote] Absolutely. But these are components used to produce specific values for the use of other components in complicated electronic circuits. Passive guitar looms are practically stoneage in comparison.

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344582133' post='1766595'] But is electric. As for power source it has it's own, thats how it works. Remove the power source and it's no longer an "Electric bass" If it's not an albeit basic electronic circuit what is it? Black magic.? Do little elves or leprechauns carry the sound in jars with fairies they have caught all the way to the speaker? No it creates an electric signal which your amp amplifies. . Any change in the signal between pup and amp gets magnified. And with your current it's not going to take a lot to "Trip it up" [/quote] Haha I knew you'd freak out at that bit. But I credit you with enough intelligence for me not to have to got into any explanations of the voltage created by the pups. But yeah sarcasm aside it kind of is black magic... albeit entirely explainable by science. [quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344582133' post='1766595'] If you are swapping supposed like for like parts out but your CTS pot you are taking out is actually on the money at 500K and putting a cheap and nasty that you say doesn't matter at over 625K (Half way on a 250K pot) that is something that is going to be magnified gawd knows how many times once it hits your amp.[/quote] First off you'd have to be mental to intentionally fit something you consider to be "cheap and nasty" in your lovely bass. So let's try to keep things in perspective and not get over dramatic. The pot will not magnify anything. In a passive circuit you can only remove stuff. I honestly think you need to not over complicate this issue with the pots and try and let it sink in just how simple a job the pots do. They are not in charge of the sound they merely act as valves to prevent the whole of your signal running off to earth, which in essence is where it would rather be instead of going to your amp. [quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344582133' post='1766595'] Hey, you might like the difference, you might not. But for me I would much rather put something in that is going to be close to the tried and tested rating. [/quote] That's fine man. I do it myself. The whole point though is that it is not always necessary. And as I said before "the tried and tested rating " you want to stick so rigidly to is fairly arbitrary and chosen because those were simply the values that were at hand. [quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344582133' post='1766595'] 'cause lets face it do you think SD or lindy look around for pots that are outside the normally used values when designing a pup, testing it through 630K pots. Or do you think they test new pups using the commonly used 250 and 500K pots? [/quote] I'd imagine they'd go with the common values. It would be silly not to. [quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344582133' post='1766595'] and again can you tell if your bass with a 250K tome pot is rolled off half way? [/quote] I suppose I could make a guess when it's half way. :/ What legal trap have you set for me by getting me to admit that?

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344545487' post='1766358'] ... When these two guys who I know have knowledge will not use cheap components because they cannot guarantee their effects on an electrical circuit. I will go with their wisdom. One of which has been involved in testing wire and components on electrical systems of engines. The other who has access to a very wide range of testing apparatus including stuff he is one of only a handful in the UK qualified to use. I will take their word over it [/quote] Dude I'm sorry to say that you are confusing apples with oranges again. When you are building electronic circuits you have to try and use the best components with the tightest tolerances because each component is dependant on the last for it's signal - you build a board with a thousand components each working on the accumulated inaccuracies of it's previous counterparts then you could easily find your project up excrement creek without a suitable means of propulsion. To describe a passive electric bass loom as "electronics" is to be honest stretching things a little... although we all do it. Let's face it we are talking about 60 year old technology here... in fact it's way older when you remove the application from guitars. The P bass circuit is about the most basic thing there is... it's so bloody basic that it doesn't even need a power source. All it is doing is exploiting the almost coincidental properties of variable resistors to be able to divert parts of an audio signal to earth. It's quite funny that you are getting hung up on having to have the most accurate pots (of course it won't do any harm but for the purposes of this thread (expensive pots = better tone) it's simply unnecessary) because I'm just waiting for the same logic to be applied to oil and paper caps... old tech, less accurate, less reliable caps... ooh but they do sound better.

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1344528501' post='1766057'] my Yamaha SG uses 300k for the tone pots.... Warwick told me I need a 220k MN blend pot.... (into a 500k vol) [b]really there going to be much difference between 220k and 250k?[/b] [/quote] Just stick in a cheap 250 you might get lucky that it's so crap that it can only go up to 220.

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1344528238' post='1766046'].... look at these... if we buy more than 4 we get a discount! [url="http://www.banzaimusic.com/Alessandro-SS-250k-log-Guitar-Pot.html"]http://www.banzaimus...Guitar-Pot.html[/url] [/quote] Wow and even at that price still no mention of how special the tone is.

[quote name='bremen' timestamp='1344525131' post='1765964'] You sure do know how to twist a man's words. Are you a lawyer? .... [/quote] Haha I've been here with Johnston a couple of times now. (eh mate ) He's as dogmatic as the day is long. And probably has missed a grand vocation in law.

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344524332' post='1765947'] So the resistance of a pot makes a difference. and if a cheap pot can be 25% out of it's stated resistance then swapping for a better one closer to the actual rating will make a difference. Oh and by they way to a previous thing it was only a break if all three pots had a break in the same place which I think is unlikely. [/quote] The reason we use 250k or 500k pots is because those are the pots which are readily available that are "close enough" for the job. It would be a scary universe indeed if guitars ONLY worked with these exact value pots. It could be that your specific bass would sound best with a 315k pot but try finding a decent supply of them. A quality pot will have a better chance of being closer to it's intended rating that says a cheaper job with a wider tolerance would, although it would be very foolish indeed to write off all cheap ones as not being be accurate as with modern production techniques this gap is closing, but even if a cheap one is as improbably far out as 25% it could still be in an acceptable range for your instrument. Just because it's traditional to use a 250k it doesn't mean that you need 0-250 per se.

[quote name='Bassman Rich' timestamp='1344515801' post='1765758']... Or is the 250/500 k ohms of the pot effectively in parallel to this signal going into the amp, and somehow taking some of the signal to ground? [/quote] Correctomondo It does not add anything.

[quote name='bremen' timestamp='1344515113' post='1765740'] The capacitance of a pot is negligible compared to that of the pickups, tone control cap and cables, yes. However much it cost. re. the Ethan Winer clip, it's a favourite. Have you visited his site, tons of zero-bullshit information on acoustics, eq and much else. [/quote] I thought as much. (I was agreeing with Luke - but when I see my quote quoted here (away from his) it isn't that clear). Yeah some real interesting stuff there eh.

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344514821' post='1765732'] Ahh yes it does. A 500K pot sounds different to a 250k pot to a 50meg pot. Otherwise we might as well just use the same pot all the time. There would be just one standard pot used in everything from a les paul to a stingray. [/quote] That's a different issue again bud. You are talking about the resistance not the accuracy. It seems the root of this argument is in not being able to differentiate between these two terms?

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344514679' post='1765727'] Well if bad solder joints and increased resistance will affect the sound why won't the resistance of the wire and components?[/quote] Can you tell me the resistance of a piece of wire say 4cm long please? [quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344514679' post='1765727'] I may be wrong but I've told There is no point in it's rotation a 500k pot simulates a 250k pot something to do with the resistance to ground or something. [/quote] Try this. Connect a 500k pot up to a multimeter. Start at 0 and turn it up. Did you see 250 at any point?