markstuk

I suspect that we're going to agree to disagree. [quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1337707486' post='1664351'] Of course....that is an explanation of why a keyboard player might not have a keyboard to bring to an audition. Neither did the chap who got the job in my band. Now that he has the job he gets to 'keep' our D50 and also now has several other keyboards of his own (none of which get used with us). [/quote]

Remember saying this? "Many keyboard players may have a piano at home on which they hone their skills but may not have keyboards per se. I doubt they'd call the removers to transport a piano to audition." [quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1337705964' post='1664327'] LOL Once the keyboard player got the job, he became custodian of the keyboard...and he actually does get to take it home and use it between rehearsals!! [/quote]

You can audition keys players anyway you wish to, it's your perogative.. But the image of keys players practicing on a grand piano at home and only getting onto an Virus/Moog in the studio or provided by the band is, I suspect, abnormal.. I have a proper piano at home which I use to play piano type stuff, everything about playing a Hammond is entirely different.. If, like you, you have a back catalogue going back on and off for 30 odd years and you want to reproduce it exactly then more polish to your elbow... All I'm attempting to say is that like guitards, drummers and bass players we feel happiest using our own stuff.. The instruction manual for my Motif runs to over 500 A4 pages, and setup involves creating your own gain structure, EQ, how the controls affect modulation in terms of rate and depth, and how these vary between voices... And tone comes from fingers just like in bass.. [quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1337703692' post='1664285'] No We recently did recruit a new key player. Of course it's important that someone brings creativity to the party but it's also impossible to perform our back catalogue on a Moog (for example) so during audtion the audtionees were provided with the correct synth and instructed which sounds play which songs. We also spent some time jamming to test spontaneity and creativity. Maybe you would call it an operator but even playing preprogrammed patches there was much difference between the auditionees. I can't understand how we might have auditioned a keyboard player on anything but the synth that creates the live and recorded sound. We don't want our back catalogue re-arranged by an auditionee. [/quote]

Mansons have one listed for £1699 [url="http://www.mansons.co.uk/shopping/brands/musicman-bass-guitars/ernie-ball/music-man-limited-edition-black-onyx-sterling/"]http://www.mansons.c...-onyx-sterling/[/url] And is one of of the 150 from 2002

The point I'm gently trying to make is that you seem to want a keyboard operator rather than someone who brings something creative to the party.. Horses for courses... Just not for me (or any of the other keys players I know in the admittedly narrow cross section of genres I mentioned...) [quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1337702388' post='1664246'] No - not at all. In the band I play in keys are far from sound effects and weird noises - they are often melodicand often textural. We attempt to replicate as close as we can the records we made. Those records were (mostly) made using sounds that we have programmed into our keyboard. The songs would not sound right with some other sound being made by the keys. Would you expect to use your own sounds when performing songs that have previously been released on record by the band? [/quote]

Ah, keys as the special effects/weird noises department.. As a keys player I do have and transport my own keyboards, since they take a little while to learn to drive and keyboard touch response and design is very important.. Also, like most musicians I would like to make my own noise, not press the buttons for someone elses patches... Most of my time is spent wallowing in a variety of electric pianos, wurlitzers, proper pianos,, accordians, clavs and weird lead synthiness on my Motif ES8 with a proper 88 key keyboard, and hammondy/strings stuff on my Roland VR700... If your idea of keys is playing a 3 octave virus via a sequencer that's cool, but for Jazz/Funk/Rock/Blues/Pop I suspect my experience is more representative... [quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1337680313' post='1663732'] I hear you but I think keyboards is different. Many keyboard players may have a piano at home on which they hone their skills but may not have keyboards per se. I doubt they'd call the removers to transport a piano to audition. Keyboards are capable of such a huge range of sounds that it is likely that a keyboard owned may not be capable of making the right noises for the songs. If someone turned up with a Solina String synth to audition for a band that used sounds from an Access Virus then that is never going to work, is it? Even if a keyboard player had roughly the right keyboard for the sounds required there's be little or no chance that he/she actually had the appropriate sounds programmed in.# Nobody uses pre-sets do they? [/quote]

Stereogram at home then Orange AD120 Hiwatt DR 203 both through a home made McKenzie loaded 1x15... Big gap (kids etc) Laney HCM65 Ashdown EB180 Ashdown MAG300 Ashdown RPM-1/APM1000 through Warwick Terminator cab. Hartke 3500/Hartke 2x12. H&K BaseBass 600 with 2 x EBS proline 410's RH450 with Barefaced S12T Markbass F500 Still got the RH450, F500 one of the Prolines and the S12T ..

Nice to see common sense returning to the discussion... As I've said before I'm in the situation where in one band I provide the PA and the monitoring FOC and in two others where someone else provides it FOC... This works beautifully as long as I don't have to remind people to help me unload/load and I'm switched on enough to help the other guys when they've brought the PA.. I'm happy either to provide a major element of a bigger PA and/or help fund it assuming it's clear what I'm getting into and how I'm getting out.. If we get a bigger PA I think I'd want a person rolled into the setup as well... I think OP is right to be infuriated to ask to pay towards something that is going to be used to make money elsewhere... There are so many ways this could go wrong....

Or the keys player can have a decent backline of his own.. Like wot I do.... [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1337593673' post='1662326'] Exactly. Which is why this is leaning towards a big PA and not just a vocal PA. 15"s or even subs.... [/quote]

And five I's in "Individual Brilliance"

but there is a 'U' in group :-)

As a keys player, playing keys through a small PA without your own backline makes as much sense as playing bass through the same PA without backline.. Of course there could be a harmonica, massed violins, gamelans, horn sections and so on.. But surely best to ask the OP whether this is likely in his case?

+1 Jam nights... If you feel a bit awkward I'm sure someone close to you would be gallant enough to be your chaperone :-)

In the best of basschat traditions folk seem to be taking embedded positions and implying dogmatic postions on other posters behalf... In my opinion (and I supply the entire PA/Monitor setup for one of my bands FOC simply because I have the stuff already) we have two extremes - A. one where the vocalist turns up after the sound check with a smile on his/her face and then disappears before breakdown.. B. The other where the vocalist is responsible for the purchase, transport, setup and breakdown of the PA.. I have never seen option B. Ever. I have seen option A. a number of times with friends bands and a tendency, soon squashed, to try it on with bands I play in.. In an ideal world contracts should be drawn up stating what happens to ownership in joint band assets as and when a member leaves or a band disbands.. I've seen new members of a band effectively paying an entry fee with no cash out available and also seen band members walk with (steal?) equipment as part of an acrimonious band breakup.,.. The idea that everyone should contribute towards something that makes the band sound good is lovely in principle.. Except that no-one else wants to pay for my expensive keyboard rig or bass stuff, and most of you would balk at buying a guitarist a mesa boogie or your drummer a large collection of cymbals, chimes, cowbells and other knicknacks .. Or does a PA have some form of special status? If I wanted to use a sansamp solely it would be a different matter of course, but I bet the chances of getting monitors that can cope with Bass properlly bought for me mostly by other band members are approximately nil... This argument reminds me a little of the gear sharing discussions.. It's a great idea until someone behaves like a t*at and leaves you holding the damaged/broken baby... Does any of this apply to a touring band, of course not.. Does this apply to a stable band of mates with 10 years playing together, no... What I have discovered is that 50% of musicians are wonderful people.. A significant proportion of the rest are badly damaged, but it takes time to work out which is which.. :-)

You're right it is more awkward than a midget, but I usually can get cab/bass/amp into the room/venue in one trip..The wheels work quite well once you put a protector on the "axle" base of the cab.. Or you can carry it like a suitcase using the side handle.. [quote name='Truckstop' timestamp='1337509324' post='1661000'] First, I'd buy a gig bag for the bass that has a pocket big enough for a micro-head. Ashdown MiBass for example and can be carried on your back. IGiG will be perfect, or a protec contego is also an excellent product. Next, an Orange Isobaric 2x10 is plenty loud enough and IS the most compact 2x10 you'll find anywhere. You can carry this in one of your hands. And your pedalboard in the other hand! You mentioned that you use quite a few effects probably mounted on a board so you need a free hand for that innit. Even if the Bareface Super12 is lightweight, it's still a pain in the arse for one trip from the car, though loads of doors, up twisty stairs etc due to it's size. The OP says he also has use of PA support. Simply, he doesn't need a Super12. I'd agree that Barefaced is the way to go because they are cool, but a Midget should be fine. All of the micro heads mentioned in this thread have DI's so why a big cab? Why 12's? Does the OP have a sansamp/bdi21 etc? These can be use to dial in plenty of grit for you if the tone of the head you isn't quite perfect for you. This pedal can be easily affixed to ones pedalboard or can be placed carefully in a pocket of your awesome new gigbag! Truckstop [/quote]

I have lots of sympathy for this point of view as I've said.. The singer with only a mic situation seems in my observation to somehow not get involved in the setup and breakdown as well.... [quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1337518145' post='1661184'] Its funny isn't it that as a bass player i wouldn't get a gig if i didn't have any gear but a singer can get gigs with just a mic? I am not dissing this its an observation that many of you have highlighted in this thread. Why do we cut singers so much slack when we wouldn't for other members of the band? Surely anyone who wants to do something semi-professionally and earn a fair whack from it would want to have their own gear? Do i need a PA to do my job? No. I spent a lot of money getting a rig that can cope with almost any occasion before needing access to any FOH. In our situation you could argue that the singers have been lucky not to have invested in any new gear for years. In that time the drummer has upgraded his kit, keyboard player bought a new NORD - i have purchased a new rig, 5 basses and spare everythings. [/quote]

Might we worth using a "britney" style radio mic - I do when I'm playing keys .. But I use a SM58 when I'm bassing.

The more I play the further away expertness seems to recede...

I dare you to try asking me to pay for PA that I'm not using but that you want to use somewhere else I double dare you I think in the OP's case the most sensible thing is for the Duo to buy the PA and for the rest of band members to pay rent on it per gig... The amount of rent is a different issue [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1337445481' post='1660194'] I thought this would work too, but in the OP's case the PA is also used for the singer and guitarist when they go out as a duo, so logistically would be a right PITA if everyone owns different bits of it... [/quote]

This +1 ... [quote name='Musky' timestamp='1337445258' post='1660184'] Just reading between the lines here, but it occurs to me that the guitarist is angling for remuneration for the time he was providing the band with the PA. Might be worth bearing in mind in any negotiations and be prepared with a response. [/quote]

I have some sympathy with the point of view that if you don't use the PA personally why should you pay towards it... The argument that it's part of the joint performance equally applies to instruments and backlines.. However in practice what has worked best for me is for everyone to own part of the PA - not only does it share out the carrying around it also means that possession actually means ownership... This clearly does not work as the band scales to a point where everyone is going through the PA, you have an engineer and everything is stored in one place, but if you're at the vocals, bit of guitar, kick/snare through the PA which the bands i'm in are, then it seems to work fine...

Not heard (or had) of any problems with the tweeters in the S12T, but when I bought mine there was a tweeterless option... In terms of your sound, MB probably would not work for you, the Genz Streamliner I suspect would tick your boxes - I don't have any experience with GK heads but I'm sure ThomBassmonkey will steer you correctly..

Barefaced S12T and one of loads of Class D amps might suit.. Genz/TC/Markbass are the mainstream contenders...