More than 4?

[silverfoxnik]

[quote name='Steve Lawson' post='94743' date='Nov 26 2007, 08:19 PM']It's all about context. Discussions about compromise are all relative because time, space and the immutable laws of physics are a compromise in an absolute sense, but all limitations are also gateways to liberation...

stay thoughtful,

Steve[/quote]
That's good advice - not just about music but about life in general, I'd say!

Totally beats 'my amp go up to No.11'

[Bilbo]

'A player with a pile of stock licks who sits waiting for a chance to show what they can do stands out a mile in a collective improv setting - like a footballer who never passes'.

OUCH!!

:wacko:

I'm going back to the woodshed somewhat chastened, Steve. As hard as I try not to be, I AM that tosser! Probably best I don't get a 9-string! I'm already too ego-centric.

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='silverfoxnik' post='94899' date='Nov 27 2007, 06:12 AM']Totally beats 'my amp go up to No.11' [/quote]
Whats wrong with having an amp that goes up to 11? I wanna serarate forum for amps that go up to 11

Thread was getting a little deep there - lighten up.

Whole heartedly agree with Steve - so much more eloquently put than what I said.

To paraphrase Bill Clinton - its the music stupid! It does not matter what it is played on if the music is great. I would love to see ERB being played on Jools (how about it Steve?) but ERB playing has to go beyond youtube clips of w***ery at music trade shows. There is even a clip of me singing on youtube - thats how bad it can be! Nice that Ross managed to find some stunt drums as well

BTW drummers do suffer from the "what do you need all those drums for?" syndrome. Drummer in my mates rock band insisted on taking his 9 drum kit to the smallest of pubs. Close inspection of the drum heads revealed that most of them never got hit and he was sacked soon after.

[gypsymoth]

"turning art into religion"

I'm still having trouble with the conceptual leap of turning music into art. what the heck is wrong with being a bass player anyway - I sure don't need the artiste panache.

in any event, that is quite an eloquent description of noodling with a looper.

[SJA]

[quote name='Sean' post='94148' date='Nov 25 2007, 03:43 PM']My message to anyone who is skeptical about ERB is go a Steve Lawson gig, open your mind and absorb.[/quote]


sorry, I'm going to be brutally honest here, and if I get flamed for it, fine.

I saw Steve play alongside Michael Manring (at the Troubadour in 2004), and sorry, Steve, Michael made far more memorable, stirring music, and happened to be using 4 string basses.

maybe it's just that he's a far better composer, regardless of how many strings he uses.

full marks for using the web for self-promotion though Steve

[Alun]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='95034' date='Nov 27 2007, 01:03 PM']BTW drummers do suffer from the "what do you need all those drums for?" syndrome. Drummer in my mates rock band insisted on taking his 9 drum kit to the smallest of pubs. Close inspection of the drum heads revealed that most of them never got hit and he was sacked soon after.[/quote]

I used to work with a Simon Phillips obessive who would use his double bass drum, six toms, rack, many cymbals kit everywhere. Not fun!

[ARGH]

Im just looking forward to the day that the instrument is seen as a solo and ensemble instrument. Its come an awful looooong way in near 60 years of production in one shape or form from its stance as a background amplified alternative to the upright,to an instrument in expressionate form just breaking surface now,be it with x+ number of strings.

Nothing is wrong with being "A Bass player",some of us just cant express ourselves as well on any other instrumental medium and the tag "Bass player" is ironic as we (ok some...)strive to become or already are soloists,ensemble players,leading,following etc etc. If you dont want the instrument to be seen with anything other than toylike ridicule,regardless of how uberw***y or minimallly dull the line being played is or instrument regards....Then thats a tad passe in these times,be it at a NAMM or recorded in front of bandmates. But the way you are percieved be it artist or Bassplayer,and how you react to that is a question only the musician can answer.

[ARGH]

[quote name='SJA' post='95216' date='Nov 27 2007, 06:01 PM']sorry, I'm going to be brutally honest here, and if I get flamed for it, fine.

I saw Steve play alongside Michael Manring (at the Troubadour in 2004), and sorry, Steve, Michael made far more memorable, stirring music, and happened to be using 4 string basses.

maybe it's just that he's a far better composer, regardless of how many strings he uses.

full marks for using the web for self-promotion though Steve [/quote]


I remember seeing the pair in Petersfield.....cozy little number that was.

You have to remember though SJA that Manrings Basses are VERY VERY modified,to call them straight 4 string basses ala a stock P would be misunderstanding. Manrings Technique is his WOW factor though all that tapping and slapping and chordial work..often on fretless is amazing to see.

Very different performers though.

[6stringbassist]

[quote name='SJA' post='95216' date='Nov 27 2007, 06:01 PM']sorry, I'm going to be brutally honest here, and if I get flamed for it, fine.

I saw Steve play alongside Michael Manring (at the Troubadour in 2004), and sorry, Steve, Michael made far more memorable, stirring music, and happened to be using 4 string basses.

maybe it's just that he's a far better composer, regardless of how many strings he uses.

full marks for using the web for self-promotion though Steve [/quote]

I wish I'd seen that gig, two of my top 5 favourite players together.

His hyperbass is a bass like no other, it's definately not just 'a 4 string bass'.

I really like both players compositions, I think that they both create stirring and memorable music, but as with all art, what's stirring and beautiful for one person, isn't for another.

[SJA]

[quote name='ARGH' post='95235' date='Nov 27 2007, 06:19 PM']You have to remember though SJA that Manrings Basses are VERY VERY modified,to call them straight 4 string basses ala a stock P would be misunderstanding. Manrings Technique is his WOW factor though all that tapping and slapping and chordial work..often on fretless is amazing to see.[/quote]

IIRC his fretted Zon headless (Vinny?) is in standard tuning and has no retuning options on it-
it's just that his songwriting - chord changes and melodies are just in a totally different league to Steve Lawson's.
SL relies on effects for variation, and frankly it just gets boring very quickly.
and looping lost its novelty a long time ago, and now the limitations it places on the music just stifle it.

[gypsymoth]

I don't see the tag "bass player" as limiting - or ironic.
I'm a bass player. sometimes I play a 4, sometimes an 8, sometimes slide, sometimes improv solo, sometimes pretty straight ahead tunes, sometimes noodling back up to my guitar/drum tunes (looping without the repetition?). still a bass player, and no qualms about it.

[ARGH]

[quote name='SJA' post='95244' date='Nov 27 2007, 06:42 PM']IIRC his fretted Zon headless (Vinny?) is in standard tuning and has no retuning options on it-
it's just that his songwriting - chord changes and melodies are just in a totally different league to Steve Lawson's.
SL relies on effects for variation, and frankly it just gets boring very quickly.
and looping lost its novelty a long time ago, and now the limitations it places on the music just stifle it.[/quote]
'Vinny' was there and was used for the one or two dual bass numbers,IIRC but 'Son of Bub' and the HB was the most 'used' onstage (sorry incorrect English) for the performances I saw.

Have to say,I sort of agree...Ive seen Steve start off intending to play a tune,and it then vears off in some direction,and Steves apologised to the Audience. But I like ambient music,but its a very very difficult genre to say what is good or isnt,even from song to song by any artist.

Given that Ozric Tenticles have been guilty of doing something similer for years.

[ARGH]

[quote name='gypsymoth' post='95252' date='Nov 27 2007, 06:57 PM']I don't see the tag "bass player" as limiting - or ironic.
I'm a bass player. sometimes I play a 4, sometimes an 8, sometimes slide, sometimes improv solo, sometimes pretty straight ahead tunes, sometimes noodling back up to my guitar/drum tunes (looping without the repetition?). still a bass player, and no qualms about it.[/quote]

Dont you? I play a Bass,But I have more than 4 strings,and I thought then I didnt play Bass anymore... I was a musician.

Well in the eyes of some.

[Steve Lawson]

[quote name='SJA' post='95216' date='Nov 27 2007, 06:01 PM']I saw Steve play alongside Michael Manring (at the Troubadour in 2004), and sorry, Steve, Michael made far more memorable, stirring music, and happened to be using 4 string basses.[/quote]

Ignoring for a moment that you're talking about my music, given that 'ERB ' stands for 'extendend range bass', the range of the Hyperbass is WAY beyond anything that my bass can get to (given that michael uses as much pitch-shifting as I do, I'll discount the extra octave in either direction that we both use.)

But that was the point of all this at the start of the discussion, wasn't it, that it's all about music first, not how many strings you use. Michael sounds like a genius whether he's looping Teen Town on the Hyperbass or playing an unprocessed standard tuned four string acoustic bass guitar.

I love what he does, I think he's without doubt the most exciting, original and inspiring composer and player ever to pick up the bass guitar. He plays, thinks, writes and improvises in a very different way to me, that's why I love playing with him. He's a musician that frustrates a lot of bassists because he doesn't play 'bass music' at all, he writes more like composers in the contemporary chamber music world. I'm sure he'd be equally inspiring on a 3 string bass as he would if he decided to play a 7.

And that's the beauty of music, and of venues that have bars upstairs - next time Michael and I tour you can sit out my set, and come down for his. You'll have a quandary on your hands when we play together though.

Steve

[Steve Lawson]

[quote name='SJA' post='95244' date='Nov 27 2007, 06:42 PM']IIRC his fretted Zon headless (Vinny?) is in standard tuning and has no retuning options on it-[/quote]

he varies the tuning a fair bit, but with standard strings on it.

[quote]SL relies on effects for variation, and frankly it just gets boring very quickly.
and looping lost its novelty a long time ago, and now the limitations it places on the music just stifle it.[/quote]

I've no desire to 'defend' what I do - there are always going to be people who dislike what I do, and there's no earthly reason why someone who doesn't like what I do 'should' like it. However, I always find it odd when people say my (or anyone else's) music 'relies' on effects - I don't see processed or unprocessed sound as being any different. It's like saying a guitarist relies on different guitars for variation, or a band rely on different tempos for variation.

I also don't see Looping as a limitation at all, I see it as a Liberating tool, as I stated in an earlier post, opening up the option to layer sound in a way that would be impossible with live musicians (given that repeatedly playing a line and looping it have a very different effect on the listener) - Looping is no more a limitation than having a drummer in your band who doesn't also play a melody instrument...

That you don't like the way I write or play is completely fine with me - I'm not writing or performing music for you, clearly. But my choice of processing gear, my bass technique, my looping approach are all things that are there to serve the music I play, the music I hear in my head and then make happen with a bass in my hands. My motivation to do what I do is neither defined by my looking for a gimmick or my inability to find musicians to play my music for me. When I need or want other players involved, that happens too. Hence [url="http://www.recyclecollective.com"]The Recycle Collective[/url]. I don't recommend it though, as it also involves a lot of heavily processed musicians and often lots of looping too.

Steve
[url="http://www.stevelawson.net"]http://www.stevelawson.net[/url]

[Steve Lawson]

[quote name='ARGH' post='95254' date='Nov 27 2007, 07:01 PM']Have to say,I sort of agree...Ive seen Steve start off intending to play a tune,and it then vears off in some direction,and Steves apologised to the Audience.[/quote]

For what it's worth, nothing unintentional ever happens in those situations... the 'apology' is for comic effect... If I genuinely felt I owed an audience an apology, I'd stop gigging... The veering off is why I love looping - the option to do that just doesn't exist if you're working with a backing track. It's possible if you're manipulating and processing pre-recorded loops in Ableton Live or such like, but you're still stuck with the original source material. With real time looping (especially with the Looperlative), the number of possibilities for where a particular tune can go is endless... that's what keeps it interesting for me.

cheers

Steve
[url="http://www.stevelawson.net"]http://www.stevelawson.net[/url]

[6stringbassist]

This thread seems to have lost its way a bit, its gone from discussing ERB's (rather pointlessly IMO, seeing as they do exist, and they aren't going to go away, and if anything the popularity of them is increasing), to openly and rudely criticising someones music and ability to compose.

If you like someones music then great, spread the word about it so we can have a listen ourselves, if you don't then fair enough, everyones taste is different, but the comments made earlier are just downright rude and unnecessary.

Anyway, if anyone is interested Yves Carbonne is doing some masterclasses in London early next year.

[url="http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=62225202"]<a href="http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea...iendID=62225202" target="_blank">http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea...iendID=62225202[/url]</a>

Should be really interesting.

Edited November 27, 2007 by 6stringbassist

[Kiwi]

[quote name='6stringbassist' post='95292' date='Nov 27 2007, 08:31 PM']This thread seems to have lost its way a bit, its gone from discussing ERB's (rather pointlessly IMO, seeing as they do exist, and they aren't going to go away, and if anything the popularity of them is increasing), to openly and rudely criticising someones music and ability to compose.[/quote]

If you go back to the first post, I don't think its gone too far off track,

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='85902' date='Nov 9 2007, 01:32 PM']OK - I get the five string thing. I can even see the point in the six (Anthony Jackson is soooooo musical). But what music are you people playing on 7, 8, 9 or 11 string basses? All I ever hear is sub-bass tractor noises and pseudo guitar noodling, all circus tricks and never anything I would call enjoyable music (and, trust me, I am not narrow minded about it) . I have been out playing and watching live music for three decades now and rarely even see anyone playing a 5-string, never mind a 6. But what and where are you guys with the 9 string basses playing? Or do they never get out of the bedrooms?[/quote]

Looking at the bigger picture for a second, I think the variety of posts on this thread has probably given Bilbo as good an illustration of the state of affairs surrounding ERB as he's likely to find anywhere. Even though specific posts somes veer off the topic a little, the circuitous discussions are as big an indication as any that there some unresolved issues in regard to how these instruments are percieved.

[SJA]

[quote name='Steve Lawson' post='95274' date='Nov 27 2007, 07:53 PM']However, I always find it odd when people say my (or anyone else's) music 'relies' on effects - I don't see processed or unprocessed sound as being any different. It's like saying a guitarist relies on different guitars for variation, or a band rely on different tempos for variation.[/quote]


the validity of the analogies of the guitarist changing guitars or a band changing tempo depends on whether the music they play doesn't vary in any way otherwise.
you do overly rely on effects- I've seen you play live 3 times now (in the vain hope that I'd get to hear something i liked) and every time it's the same story of relying on a reverse effect, pitch shift etc. to wring some kind of variation out of some unremarkable riff or idea.

[quote]Looping is no more a limitation than having a drummer in your band who doesn't also play a melody instrument...[/quote]

that would be a drummer who can't freely vary their playing, changing their style, pattern on the spot- plus stops you from throwing in a chord change on the spot. it IS limiting.

as for me being rude, well, i've seen Steve himself be pretty rude himself about other peoples' music in his blogs- eg. calling Velvet revolver "sh*t on a stick".
I've got a bit tired of his attitude of smug superiority, sorry if I've put a spanner in the works of his self-promotion scheme.

Edited November 27, 2007 by SJA

[ARGH]

f***ing hell.....

[ARGH]

I thought 'Vinny' had ultralite strings on say like 50-10 or something,god its been years since I worried about that sort of thing...well....alright days.


If I perjump,along this line a little,the only thing I dont like is the 'Because established musician says,it then its fact' syndrome vs 'Small world syndrome'. But thats nowt to do with what this is.


Im trying to tie up the ERB issue as a body of work and people,regardless of what is 'good' or 'bad' its ERB,Im a militant on this,Ive even pondered the creation of a new clef (not a popular idea given the good old 8va...but hey). If you genuinly believe that ERB is bad period,and dont want to find out anything more,then just stop,dont express any opinion,because its weightless,you would never allow such a statement on here saying " I think all Blacks and Asians should be shot because I saw one involved in a mugging on Crimewatch" Which would be absolutely stupid,a blanket opinion.... But some people form they're opinions on very similer lines.

[Steve Lawson]

[quote name='SJA' post='95299' date='Nov 27 2007, 08:55 PM']the validity of the analogies of the guitarist changing guitars or a band changing tempo depends on whether the music they play doesn't vary in any way otherwise.
you do overly rely on effects- I've seen you play live 3 times now (in the vain hope that I'd get to hear something i liked) and every time it's the same story of relying on a reverse effect, pitch shift etc. to wring some kind of variation out of some unremarkable riff or idea.[/quote]

I'm surprised you came to see me three times. But thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt, even if the search for whatever it was you were looking for in my music proved fruitless. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to say to the accusation that I 'overly rely on effects' when as stated, I don't see processed or unprocessed sound as being any different - it's just sound. I don't overly rely on it any more than any musician who releases recordings relies on sound for their work not to just be sheet music. I use the sounds I think are right for the music I've written - I tend to view my sound set as being like my band - I use a tremolo sound for chords rather often in the way that a band with a Fender Rhodes player would have them play on the songs, I use a pitch shifted sound for the melodies because I like the sound and it puts the tune in a different register to the accompaniment... It's just a sound palette.


[quote]that would be a drummer who can't freely vary their playing, changing their style, pattern on the spot- plus stops you from throwing in a chord change on the spot. it IS limiting.[/quote]

...only is as much as any set of parameters is limiting. It's also liberating. Without a looper, a band who wanted 15 layers of bass would be stuck. So not having 15 bassists is limiting, if that's what you want. It has it's parameters, just as bass/guitar/drums is a set of parameters, or writing for classical orchestra. They are a set of parameters I greatly enjoy, and find inspiring. Chord changes on the spot are quite possible, as are style, tempo, harmony... it's all in the arrangement. I tend not to do those things because I don't write music just to fully exploit what's possible with a looper - I'm not writing demo music for the technology I use...


[quote]as for me being rude, well, i've seen Steve himself be pretty rude himself about other peoples' music in his blogs- eg. calling Velvet revolver "sh*t on a stick".
I've got a bit tired of his attitude of smug superiority, sorry if I've put a spanner in the works of his self-promotion scheme.[/quote]

It would seem that the pertinent bit there would be that it was on my blog. I'd be unlikely to go onto a rock site and post about my dislike for VR's set at Live8 in a thread about Duff's bass-playing, or join a thread where Duff McKagan was posting and tell him I didn't like his band - and were Duff to approach me about it, I'd probably apologise (though maybe even Duff would have to concur that Scott Weiland looked like Blakey off On The Buses when he wore that hat on stage) I've certainly printed retractions on my blog before when challenged about the unfairness of something I've written.

Not that I'm suggesting you shouldn't have posted what you did - clearly your opinion of what I do is different from mine, or I wouldn't be playing the music I play. I'm surprised that I've managed to wind you up to the degree that you would post what you've posted, given that in the context of this thread, we're probably coming at it from the same angle (that music ought to be judged on its own merits, rather than by the tools that are employed to create it), but it would seem from your last comment that the thread itself was just a chance to put me in my place. No spanners thrown into the works of any self-promotion scheme - any 'scheme' I have is to allow people to listen to what I do and make their mind up. I'm sure the people who read and post here are big enough to do that, as they do with tonnes of other music on a daily basis...

If you have further issues with what I've said, it'd probably be better to take it off-forum, though I'm guessing that such a conversation would prove equally fruitless, given that your assessment of what I do musically is not one I concur with, and the criteria by which you're judging it aren't ones that I can relate to.

Sorry to have riled you so - it clearly wasn't my intention,

Steve
[url="http://www.stevelawson.net"]http://www.stevelawson.net[/url]

[SJA]

"I'm surprised you came to see me three times. But thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt, even if the search for whatever it was you were looking for in my music proved fruitless."

2 of the gigs were free and i attended to check out if you lived up to the hype you've garnered in magazines etc.
at the Troubadour gig I was relieved to find that Michael Manring did actually live up to the hype.


"It would seem that the pertinent bit there would be that it was on my blog. I'd be unlikely to go onto a rock site and post about my dislike for VR's set at Live8 in a thread about Duff's bass-playing, or join a thread where Duff McKagan was posting and tell him I didn't like his band - and were Duff to approach me about it, I'd probably apologise"

well, that's a bit cowardly then isn't it?

is it a case of one set of standards for your friends and another for people you don't know?

"I'm not writing demo music for the technology I use... "

could have fooled me.
the music you are playing comes across as exactly that- a demo for the technology, whereas Michael Manring's material comes across as music rather than a demo for his Zon basses.

Edited November 27, 2007 by SJA

[ARGH]

...A Vowel please Carol...

[setekh]

[quote name='ARGH' post='95324' date='Nov 27 2007, 09:37 PM']I thought 'Vinny' had ultralite strings on say like 50-10 or something,god its been years since I worried about that sort of thing...well....alright days.


If I perjump,along this line a little,the only thing I dont like is the 'Because established musician says,it then its fact' syndrome vs 'Small world syndrome'. But thats nowt to do with what this is.


Im trying to tie up the ERB issue as a body of work and people,regardless of what is 'good' or 'bad' its ERB,Im a militant on this,Ive even pondered the creation of a new clef (not a popular idea given the good old 8va...but hey). [b]If you genuinly believe that ERB is bad period,and dont want to find out anything more,then just stop,dont express any opinion,because its weightless,[/b]you would never allow such a statement on here saying " I think all Blacks and Asians should be shot because I saw one involved in a mugging on Crimewatch" Which would be absolutely stupid,a blanket opinion.... But some people form they're opinions on very similer lines.[/quote]
so you mean that if I disagree with you I have no right to have an opinion? that "example" you just gave doesn't really fit the profile...

that's what bothers me about your (and many others!) posts on this thread - you don't really try to see the other folks point of view..that doesnt really leave room for discussion now, does it? you're just exchanging blows..

EDIT: SJA man, I'm sorry but I have to say it. for your reasons (valid or not, thats not the question), you hate Steve's guts. We all got it. Now, it's very rude to start insulting and speaking (writing?) aggressively to him....with all of us watching..don't you think you're doing the same you're complaining he did? if you want to discuss with him, PM him, or fight him or whatever...I really dont need to know

[/rant]

Edited November 27, 2007 by setekh